What Did Jesus Actually Do?

[Goodman John]

That's why the Gospels are a separate genre.

If you had only two library shelves, 'History' and 'Fiction', and only one Bible and you had to place it, which shelf would you put it on?

 

[sojourner]

Of course it matters if the gospels coincided they would be more believable than they are simply because they contradict each other.

But the Gospels were never intended to be read together, to be gathered into the same collection, or considered as one cohesive story. Read them as if they're completely different stories (which they are) and take each on its own, without trying to mush them all together. Then they each might make more sense as theological treatments.

 

[Goodman John]

Muhammad united warring Arabian tribes into a single confederacy within a lifetime. Even if he hadn't brought a new religion, what he did would still have changed the world map.

Jesus was a wandering nobody. What did he do that non-religious people should take note?

They say he fed a lot of people for free and turned water into wine- isn't that enough?

 

[sojourner]

If you had only two library shelves, 'History' and 'Fiction', and only one Bible and you had to place it, which shelf would you put it on?

I'd lay it by my chair instead. The bible is neither, so should be treated as neither. One can't bang a square peg into a round hole.

 

[sojourner]

As i said, fictional. Thanks

But not all of it -- and it's certainly not Fiction from a literary standpoint.

 

[Rival]

They say he fed a lot of people for free and turned water into wine- isn't that enough?

Pretty standard fare for religious believers, really. Even false prophets do miracles and the Pharaoh's priests were said to have performed sorcery.

 

[Goodman John]

But the Gospels were never intended to be read together, to be gathered into the same collection, or considered as one cohesive story. Read them as if they're completely different stories (which they are) and take each on its own, without trying to mush them all together. Then they each might make more sense as theological treatments.

If that's the case, then the Council of Nicea got it all wrong? Why didn't they- learned men, every one- see this problem? Why didn't they pick one narrative (or write a combined narrative, as Thomas Jefferson did) and run with it, instead of sowing confusion by tossing all of them out there?

 

[ChristineM]

But the Gospels were never intended to be read together, to be gathered into the same collection, or considered as one cohesive story. Read them as if they're completely different stories (which they are) and take each on its own, without trying to mush them all together. Then they each might make more sense as theological treatments.

The same incidents should not contradict each other.

 

[Goodman John]

Pretty standard fare for religious believers, really. Even false prophets do miracles and the Pharaoh's priests were said to have performed sorcery.

One wonders, if God is the only God, just where did the Pharaoh's priests get their mystical powers?

 

[Rival]

One wonders, if God is the only God, just where did the Pharaoh's priests get their mystical powers?

I have no idea, but the ancients knew more than we give them credit for so it doesn't shock me. The Torah warns people against necromancy and sorcery and divination, so we presume it exists.

 

[ChristineM]

But not all of it -- and it's certainly not Fiction from a literary standpoint.

Sure buildings and cities existed (some still exist) and incidental peoples have indipendent corroborating evidence for their existence.

Not sure what you are trying to do with the last bit, seems to be obfuscation to me.

It is a series of books that dont agree on several key events, this coupled with the fact that no third party evidence exists to show the validity of these and other major events indicate the nt gospels are very much fictional

 

[Goodman John]

I have no idea, but the ancients knew more than we give them credit for so it doesn't shock me. The Torah warns people against necromancy and sorcery and divination, so we presume it exists.

To me, it points to the existence of a being (or beings) with at least some temporal power, other than God. (As I have a definite Manichaean/Gnostic thread in my views, I'd hazard a guess that source of power was Satan just doing his thing- before the coming of the Hebrews, he was gathering his forces and playing his games with Man from the start anyway, so why not play with the Egyptians in their time? But then, in my view, 'God' as presented in the OT isn't the same 'God' of the NT- the OT 'God' was Satan masquerading as God- so of course your mileage may vary.)

 

[Spartan]

Done - and i im not playing your silly circular "i dont like your answer so lets start again and hope you give me a different answer that i like" game

LOL. All those books you swear by and you couldn't come up with even one fictitious example from the Gospels.

Well, keep studying and maybe one day you can run with the big dogs.

 

[ChristineM]

LOL. All those books you swear by and you couldn't come up with even one fictitious example from the Gospels.

Well, keep studying and maybe one day you can run with the big dogs.

Dont work like that, i have provided examples,you dont like them so pretend they dont exists. The only one you fool is yourself. Big dogs? Sheesh. Not even puppy fodder

 

[j1i]

God sent Jesus as a prophet to the prophet of Israel
To relieve them of much of the hardship they held in the Torah
Jesus was a reformer and liked to fix bad things
This is not approved by the owners of lusts and fun
Therefore, he faced many difficulties

As an example
If I told you that the fall of economy a one country is because of organized crime and the people sins of this country
Therefore, because of the large number of sins, it is on the verge of collapse
It is very difficult for people to become good and stop bad habits

the ideal solution would be to enter these countries in war and bloodshed so that they review themselves

Spoiling something is much easier than fixing it

So far, right-wing parties in Europe are fighting conservative Christianity
There is a war against the rest of the good
Secularism, atheism will spread, politics will keep religion, religious teachings and moral values in decline

This is the case of the righteous and the prophets between killing and denial

sorry for long writing

 

[sojourner]

If that's the case, then the Council of Nicea got it all wrong? Why didn't they- learned men, every one- see this problem? Why didn't they pick one narrative (or write a combined narrative, as Thomas Jefferson did) and run with it, instead of sowing confusion by tossing all of them out there?

Because they ARE distinctly different threads in the tapestry of Christianity — distinct voices in a choir. Xy isn’t a single voice, it’s many voices — not singing the same melody, but many melodies that all work together. That’s why the Trinity— it’s God expressed in community. Three distinct voices in a choir.

To glom them together is to diminish their distinctiveness. It’s to choose uniformity over unity. Relationship doesn’t work like that.

 

[sojourner]

The same incidents should not contradict each other.

But yet many times they do! It becomes a matter of perspective. Are you a wife, a mother, a daughter, an employee? “You” change details according to perspective of who you are. You-as-daughter differs in detail from you-as-lover.

 

[sojourner]

Sure buildings and cities existed (some still exist) and incidental peoples have indipendent corroborating evidence for their existence.

Not sure what you are trying to do with the last bit, seems to be obfuscation to me.

It is a series of books that dont agree on several key events, this coupled with the fact that no third party evidence exists to show the validity of these and other major events indicate the nt gospels are very much fictional

I don’t think you’re wrapping your head around the fact that this isn’t history — at least not in the way you and I usually think of it. This is theology.

I get it; you’re not used to thinking theologically. That’s ok. But you can’t expect something to be something it isn’t just because you’re not used to thinking in those terms.

 

[Spartan]

Dont work like that, i have provided examples,you dont like them so pretend they dont exists. The only one you fool is yourself. Big dogs? Sheesh. Not even puppy fodder

You're not even that, then, since you didn't even show up in the arena for a trot-around.

 

[ChristineM]

But yet many times they do! It becomes a matter of perspective. Are you a wife, a mother, a daughter, an employee? “You” change details according to perspective of who you are. You-as-daughter differs in detail from you-as-lover.

I am me, with multiple roles, i am still the same person? But that is pretty much irrelevant to the discrepancies in the scriptures

If me as a mother sees someone carrying out an action and other people see the same action then reporting on that action will be at least similar if not the same.

If me as a lover does something on a specific date that i did not do the day before then i did not do it the day before.