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What do Baha'i believe about Jesus.

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
"For this reason all linguists and commentators agree that Khatam-ul-Nabiyyin means 'The Last in the line of Prophets.' The word Khatam in its dictionary meaning and linguistic usage does not refer to the post office stamp which is affixed on the outgoing mail. Its literal meaning is the 'seal' which is but on the envelope to secure its contents."

Exactly.
However, it can mean that the seal on the envelope is placed their to authenticate the contents, and authentication of the previous prophets is what Muhammad meant by "seal".

The context of the Surah in question is very important. He was dealing with the problems that arose when He married the ex-wife of His adopted son. So He pointed out that adoption is not what siring is. Adoptive names should remain the father's name, not the name of the man who adopts the child.

If his adopted son was in fact his "true" son in a scriptural sense, then not only did the law prevent Muhammad from marrying the girl, but it also opened the door to the adopted son claiming inherited status as "Prophet" after Muhammad's death. It was not His intention to create dispute over succession.

The succession proved to be bloody and divisive enough all by itself without tossing in a third element of contention.

In the context of the Surah and the events amongst the companions of Muhammad the verse best makes sense. And it is incumbent upon people to make sense of revelation.

Regards,
Scott
 

mehrosh

Member
Popeyesays said:
"For this reason all linguists and commentators agree that Khatam-ul-Nabiyyin means 'The Last in the line of Prophets.' The word Khatam in its dictionary meaning and linguistic usage does not refer to the post office stamp which is affixed on the outgoing mail. Its literal meaning is the 'seal' which is but on the envelope to secure its contents."

Exactly.
However, it can mean that the seal on the envelope is placed their to authenticate the contents, and authentication of the previous prophets is what Muhammad meant by "seal".
Dear Scott....We have discussed this matter at many place...but I see that it has not be changed a bit...This is the verse we are talking about...to avoid any more confusion let me paste is وَلَكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ but messenger of God and Seal of News givers.....I hope you have no problem with my translation now...because this is the only possible clearest translation. According to the Oxford dictionary the meanings of seal are 1.an engraved piece of metal used to stamp a design;it impression 2.something used to close an opening very tighty which ever meaning you confirm....both entitle Muhammed to be the last impression on the document of revelation or closing of the opening document of revelation which started from Adam....If you have any other meanings of Seal...I have presented the most authentic one, you are welcome...But I think there is nothing more to discuss about regarding this topic as Muhammed himself declared himself the Last Prophet and we are no one to go against his statment.....
Popeyesays said:
The context of the Surah in question is very important. He was dealing with the problems that arose when He married the ex-wife of His adopted son. So He pointed out that adoption is not what siring is. Adoptive names should remain the father's name, not the name of the man who adopts the child.

If his adopted son was in fact his "true" son in a scriptural sense, then not only did the law prevent Muhammad from marrying the girl, but it also opened the door to the adopted son claiming inherited status as "Prophet" after Muhammad's death. It was not His intention to create dispute over succession.

The succession proved to be bloody and divisive enough all by itself without tossing in a third element of contention.

In the context of the Surah and the events amongst the companions of Muhammad the verse best makes sense. And it is incumbent upon people to make sense of revelation.

Regards,
Scott
Here is the whole context from Surah Araf where you had picked up the lines....22. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" 23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost." 24. ((Allah)) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time." 25. He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)." 26. O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition! 27. O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith. 28. When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "(Allah) commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?" 29. Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight: such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return." 30. Some He hath guided: Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to Allah, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance. 31. O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters. 32. Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of Allah, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand. 33. Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. 34. To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation). 35. O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you apostles from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. 36. But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance,- they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (for ever). I don't know from where did you bring in the Prophet's issue of his adopted son....Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) got a message from Allah ordering him to marry Zaynab bint Jahsh, while he did in 5 AH, when he was fifty-eight years old, and she was thirty-five years old. In doing so, he demonstrated beyond doubt that in Islam an adopted son is not regarded in the same light as a natural son, and that although a father may never marry a woman whom his natural son has married and then divorced, the father of an adopted son is allowed to marry a woman who was once, but is no longer, married to that adopted son.And this matter is discussed in Surah Ahzah ayah 37And when thou saidst unto him on whom Allah hath conferred favor and thou hast conferred favor: Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear Allah. And thou didst hide in thy mind that which Allah was to bring to light, and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah had a better right that thou shouldst fear Him. So when Zeyd had performed the necessary formality (of divorce) from her, We gave her unto thee in marriage, so that (henceforth) there may be no sin for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have performed the necessary formality (of release) from them. The commandment of Allah must be fulfilled. I think you have not read the Quran or maybe you have the wrong copy of the Quran....The matter of his adopted son has nothing to do with his Prophethood, rather it is a rule in the Shariah that an adopted son cannot be given ones name because it effects the linage...the reason you have given of succession is interference in Divine Matters and one should avoid giving such remarks because the Hidden Knowledge is with God alone....Regarding the context of the verses it is clear that God is relating the story of Adam and Eve, how they disobeyed and there bodies where revealed, under this topic God advices us to abstrain from any kind of evil acts......and the verse If one ponders over the whole text he will not find it difficult to understand that this message goes out to the Children of Adam and God tells them that our Apostles will come to you, and He fulfilled the promise by sending Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, ...................................................................and Muhammed.....Keep in mind that the Quran has three slots PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE...and this verse refers to the Past Slot as it talks about Adam and his children....Regards and Thanks for reading
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Here's what the Oxford says on-line:
seal1



• noun 1 a device or substance used to join two things together or make something impervious. 2 a piece of wax or lead with an individual design stamped into it, attached to a document as a guarantee of authenticity. 3 a confirmation or guarantee: a seal of approval. 4 an engraved device used for stamping a seal.

1: Muhammad was actually gluing together the "Book" of revelation from Abraham to Himself. So that definition fits
2: Muhammad guaranteed the authenticity of the Prophets before Him by afixing a metaphoric "seal" to those revelations.
3: Muhammad Himself was the guarantor of the Prophets before Him.
4: In a real sense His blessed self was the device attached to the document of the Qur'an.

In all the definitions of "seal" as a noun in the Oxford, I do not even see the definition of seal as the end and finish of anything.

We have argued this round and round, and our positions are not changed. We'll both have to leave the judgement of this up to God Who is, after all, the Best Judge and the Most Wise.

Regards,
Scott
 

Judgement Day

Active Member
Popeyesays said:
Here's what the Oxford says on-line:
seal1



• noun 1 a device or substance used to join two things together or make something impervious. 2 a piece of wax or lead with an individual design stamped into it, attached to a document as a guarantee of authenticity. 3 a confirmation or guarantee: a seal of approval. 4 an engraved device used for stamping a seal.

1: Muhammad was actually gluing together the "Book" of revelation from Abraham to Himself. So that definition fits
2: Muhammad guaranteed the authenticity of the Prophets before Him by afixing a metaphoric "seal" to those revelations.
3: Muhammad Himself was the guarantor of the Prophets before Him.
4: In a real sense His blessed self was the device attached to the document of the Qur'an.

In all the definitions of "seal" as a noun in the Oxford, I do not even see the definition of seal as the end and finish of anything.

We have argued this round and round, and our positions are not changed. We'll both have to leave the judgement of this up to God Who is, after all, the Best Judge and the Most Wise.
Hi Scott,

We cant compare English with Arabic. Like for instance, football in the UK is not the same as football in the USA. One needs to study Arabic to gain full understanding of it (post #80).

Popeyesays said:
We have argued this round and round, and our positions are not changed. We'll both have to leave the judgement of this up to God Who is, after all, the Best Judge and the Most Wise.
I agree, and I think this is where I as Muslim have to say:

Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

(Al-Kafiroon)

Peace and Blessings to you,
JD
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Judgement Day said:
Hi Scott,

We cant compare English with Arabic. Like for instance, football in the UK is not the same as football in the USA. One needs to study Arabic to gain full understanding of it (post #80).


I agree, and I think this is where I as Muslim have to say:

Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

(Al-Kafiroon)

Peace and Blessings to you,
JD
I can understand your football analogy in English just fine. If I need to, I can go to friends and scholars I know who read Arabic and ask them. If one MUST be fluent in Arabic to understand the Qur'an then it is not a revelation for all mankind, in my opinion.Regards,Scott
 

mehrosh

Member
Popeyesays said:
Here's what the Oxford says on-line:
seal1



• noun 1 a device or substance used to join two things together or make something impervious. 2 a piece of wax or lead with an individual design stamped into it, attached to a document as a guarantee of authenticity. 3 a confirmation or guarantee: a seal of approval. 4 an engraved device used for stamping a seal.

1: Muhammad was actually gluing together the "Book" of revelation from Abraham to Himself. So that definition fits
2: Muhammad guaranteed the authenticity of the Prophets before Him by afixing a metaphoric "seal" to those revelations.
3: Muhammad Himself was the guarantor of the Prophets before Him.
4: In a real sense His blessed self was the device attached to the document of the Qur'an.

In all the definitions of "seal" as a noun in the Oxford, I do not even see the definition of seal as the end and finish of anything.

We have argued this round and round, and our positions are not changed. We'll both have to leave the judgement of this up to God Who is, after all, the Best Judge and the Most Wise.

Regards,
Scott
Yes your right Dear Scott, as I see that we both have different dictionaries of Oxford...thus either we discuss this with an expert in english or arabic language or SEAL this Topic here and leave it to God. But a friendly advice in the end Muhammed never approved the idea of anyone coming after him except Jesus (not as a prophet) niether does the Quran..Obey ALLAH and Obey the Prophet is the message of the QuranThe Noble Qur'an Ar-Rum 30:30 ------So set you (O Muhammad SAW) your face towards the religion of pure Islâmic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allâh Alone) Allâh's Fitrah (i.e. Allâh's Islâmic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq*illâh (i.e. the Religion of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not. ....Thanks and Regards...
 

9harmony

Member
mehrosh said:
...But a friendly advice in the end Muhammed never approved the idea of anyone coming after him except Jesus...

Yes, this is key. Baha'u'llah's claim is that He is the Return of Christ. So there is no contradiction in our view.

Have a wonderful day!
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Greetings!

mehrosh said:
O CHILDREN OF ADAM.......the verses are addressing the sons and daughters of Adam...

Regarding the Day of Judgment...we can discuss it later on...

Save, of course, that all are the children of Adam, so the point holds nicely.

As to Judgement Day, IOV there isn't a lot to discuss because our scriptures are so explicit about what it signifies. I'll be happy to post quotes on this if you like, though....

Regards,

Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
mehrosh said:
he Bahai faith purely contradicts Muhammed's [teachings].

Only in your opinion.

And please note that we Bah'ais have brought literally millions--many of them formerly very hostile to Muhammad and Islam--to the recognition and love of both!

There are clear interpretations that avoid the idea that Muhammad is somehow the "last" Divine Messenger, despite the fact that the Qur'an indicates otherwise and the fact that it calls Him only the Seal of the nabi.

And in conjunciton with the first point above, I would simply refer you to the point made by Christ: "By their fruits ye shall know them!" and "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." So unless and until you can explain away the fact that the Baha'i Faith's fruits match those listed in Galatians and that Baha'u'llah clearly passes the critical test in First John 4:2, I put it to you that there's simply no denying its validity in both Biblical and Qur'anic senses.

Peace,

Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
mehrosh said:
The first part...Khatam means seal or signature...you need to go into arabic literature for this purpose....This ornament is a new word you have come up with.

Muhammed was not the first messenger...because he was send to the whole of humanity....

No, "I" have "come up with" nothing, the more so as I am not fluent in Arabic. A number of Arabic-speaking scholars have asserted the meaning "ornament."

And in fact, ALL Divine Messengers are in fact sent to the whole of humanity! But tragically, the vast majority thereof has overwhelmingly rejected every one, Muhammad sadly included.

Peace,

Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
mehrosh said:
Thanks but All Praises are for ALLAH alone...I am just TRYING to strive in His path....and our Bahai Brothers are really very co operative...Thanks to them also..

Thanks for your kind words, Mehrosh! :)

We are indeed all in this together, little as many sometimes realize this. . . .

Best, :)

Bruce
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
Although most Bahais may view Yeshua and His Revelation as subordinate to Baha'u'llah and his, I don't. I, as a Bahai-Christian but more so as a Unitarian Universalist, take a HUGE leap of faith and boldly proclaim that He is the Son of God, the full manifestation of God, and Savior of the World, as His death and physical resurrection paid the penalty for sin in full.
 
Although most Bahais may view Yeshua and His Revelation as subordinate to Baha'u'llah and his, I don't. I, as a Bahai-Christian but more so as a Unitarian Universalist, take a HUGE leap of faith and boldly proclaim that He is the Son of God, the full manifestation of God, and Savior of the World, as His death and physical resurrection paid the penalty for sin in full.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

It sounds to me at this point you are a Christian who has a great deal of respect for Baha'u'llah and His teachings, and that is a beautiful thing.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I'm confused.

Baha'is, as I understood lately, believe in the Quraan that says in Verse 30 Of chapter 9 (Tawbah) it is wrong, again according to my understanding and interpretation in my beliefs by the experts, to call Jesus son of God. I believe this covers any manner of being called a son, be it a begotten son or a figuratively speaking son.

I'm not complaining or anything, I'm just confused. Not really familiar with any other Islamic sects. I do respects all others with different beliefs and religions.
 
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arthra

Baha'i
Thanks for your post...

"Son of God" is understood by us as a title of Jesus and not to be taken literally...

1652. The Qur'án Concerning Christ

"Regarding the passage you enclosed about the Qur'án: In reality there is no contradiction at all; when the Qur'án denies Christ is the Son of God it is not refuting His Words but the false interpretation of them made by the Christians who read into them a relationship of an almost corporeal nature, whereas Almighty God has no parents or offspring. What is meant by Christ, is His spirit's relation to the Infinite Spirit, and this the Qur'án does not deny. It is in a sense attributable -- this kind of Sonship -- to all the Prophets."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 19, 1945)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 492)
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

It sounds to me at this point you are a Christian who has a great deal of respect for Baha'u'llah and His teachings, and that is a beautiful thing.

Interestingly enough, I was brought up a Christian. However, I am also a Bahai, as I do accept Baha'u'llah as the Messenger of God for this Age, and seek to implement the teachings of his revelation. And thank you so much for recognizing the fact that I do see truth in other religions and spiritual traditions!
 
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