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What Do Enlightened People Know that Others Don't?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
As I mentioned in the OP, I found the question, "What do Enlightened People Know that Other's Don't?", on another website. There were 44 answers to it. Some of the answers were pretty extensive, most seemed sincere, and at least a few looked about as good as you might imagine such a question could be answered.

However, the question seems to me a tricky one. I don't suppose it is intentionally tricky, but I think people could easily be misled by it. In addition to the ambiguity of the word "enlightenment", I think there might be at least five other ways the question is likely to be misunderstood by at least some of us.

First, we might ask what kind(s) of knowledge enlightened people possess? The question doesn't specify, and so it might suggest to some of us that the question is solely asking for what sort of conscious or intellectual knowledge an enlightened person might have that most of us don't. There are at least two other possibilities, however:
  1. An enlightened person might possess subconscious or non-conceptual knowledge -- rather than conscious or intellectual knowledge -- that has led to his or her enlightenment.
  2. It is possible that what has led to a person's enlightenment isn't knowledge (of any sort), but rather a lack of knowledge -- perhaps best described as "a lack of delusions".
I view both of those things as possibilities, although I'm not sure how likely either is.

Second, an enlightened person might possess great knowledge, but it is non-communicable. That is, it cannot be taught. If that were the case, then the question could potentially mislead some of us if we were to assume that a true answer to the question could help bring about our own enlightenment.

Third, related to the second point above, even if the knowledge possessed by an enlightened person were communicable in some way, it seems to me that it by itself would not necessarily be transformative. That is, it would not necessarily help to bring about enlightenment. For instance, you might know that "part of being enlightened involves experiencing the dissolution of subject/object perception". You might know what that means, at least intellectually know. But such knowledge -- even if it were true, and even if you knew it -- will not transform you. Will not turn you into an enlightened person.

That point should be emphasized. Some people, of course, disagree with it. They believe that studying and understanding holy scriptures and similar literature will necessarily help them progress towards enlightenment. "If only you truly understood the Heart Sutra, you would be enlightened", or "You would move closer to being enlightened." However, I myself do not believe that is so.

Consequently the question that's the topic of this thread might be misleading in the sense that at least some of us might think that understanding any or all truthful answers to it will help us to become enlightened.

Fourth, it is possible that those folks who say "intellectual knowledge is not only useless to bring about enlightenment, but also can hinder or even prevent enlightenment" are correct. That is -- going even beyond the third point above -- it could actually be "dangerous" to study and understand even true answers to the question. I wouldn't go so far as to say that was necessarily so, but I think it could often enough be so, depending on the knowledge, the person possessing it, and so forth.

Thus, the question could be misleading in the sense that one might expect true answers to it to be helpful when in reality they are harmful to ones efforts to be enlightened.

Last, it is possible that a particular enlightened person is relatively inarticulate about what they know. We might assume anyone who was enlightened could speak volumes about it, but if we take a close look at that assumption, we might notice that it is largely a Western assumption. In the West (especially) we think of wise people as articulate or even super-articulate about wisdom. There is no real reason, however, to believe that.

Consequently, a fifth and final reason the question might mislead us is that we might assume asking an enlightened person what they know about enlightenment will get us a good, articulate answer.

Those are five ways in which the question might mislead us. I'm pretty sure there are others. Perhaps you can think of some?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
We don't know any more than any else.

An fully enlightened person simply has no ignorance concerning a certain subject. Thus someone with a degree in economics is probably far more enlightened about economic theory that I am. I for example am a librarian and am probably far more enlightened about the Dewey Decimal System than most, though I certainly wouldn't claim to be FULLY enlightened, since I'm sure there are things about the system that I'm still ignorant about.
I am curious about how you, dear reader, would answer a question that I found earlier today on a certain noble and esteemed website::

"What Do Enlightened People Know that Others Don't?"



Comments? Jokes? Observations? Muddled Rants? Snotty Remarks? Thinly Disguised Efforts to Solicit Nude Selfies From the Other Posters?


HAPPY BONUS QUESTION: Offhand, in what way(s) is the question a trick question (assuming it is one)?

SECOND HAPPY BONUS QUESTION: Can you be enlightened and yet not consciously know you are enlightened?

EDIT: I have laid out some of my own views about the question in post #41 below for anyone who is interested.


Please Note: My opinions expressed in this thread are my own, do not always reflect established wisdom in these matters, and therefore should be taken with extreme caution. However, all reputable and important Zen Masters themselves agree that it is pure folly for anyone to disagree with me.

A fully enlightened person simply has no ignorance concerning a certain subject. Thus someone with a degree in economics is probably far more enlightened about economic theory that I am. I for example am a librarian and am probably far more enlightened about the Dewey Decimal System than most, though I certainly wouldn't claim to be FULLY enlightened, since I'm sure there are things about the system that I'm still ignorant about. So your question, what do enlightened people know that others don't? is all dependent upon what subject these people are enlightened about.

If you're talking about spiritual enlightenment, you first need to define what you mean by spiritual.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If you're talking about spiritual enlightenment, you first need to define what you mean by spiritual.

Really? Why should I? I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm genuinely wondering about your thinking here. Why should I define "spiritual enlightenment" for you?

There are threads in which I prefer everyone to use the same definition, but this isn't one of them. So please feel free to use your own.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Just a matter of quality. They might know less than us, but more about things that matter to us on an essential level.

I tend to agree with you there, but I wonder if you could elaborate on what you mean by "know" in this context? For instance, are you talking about conceptual knowledge here, non-conceptual knowledge, both kinds of knowledge -- or does it not matter which kind?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I tend to agree with you there, but I wonder if you could elaborate on what you mean by "know" in this context? For instance, are you talking about conceptual knowledge here, non-conceptual knowledge, both kinds of knowledge -- or does it not matter which kind?
By "non-conceptual knowledge," do you mean unlearned skill, such as instinct? This would be like a bodhisattva-"a knowing heart." Bodhisattvas are not yet enlightened, but they are in the process of awakening.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
It's interesting that you would use that particular definition of "enlightenment". Do you think other people might legitimately use other definitions? Or is there something special about the one you used that precludes anyone using some other definition?

(shrug)

It's called a 'dictionary,' used by English speakers to find the definitions of English words.

I'm a retired English teacher. Sue me.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
By "non-conceptual knowledge," do you mean unlearned skill, such as instinct? This would be like a bodhisattva-"a knowing heart." Bodhisattvas are not yet enlightened, but they are in the process of awakening.
To develop this line of thought a bit further: can you describe how to perform instinctual behaviour such as walking? It's just something that unfolds and develops. One may have to relearn how to walk if you are damaged, and there are physical therapists who can help you with that, and coaches that can help improve your walking and bring it more into consciousness, but the actual act of walking is so complex that the conscious mind will probably become overwhelmed trying to manage all of the factors involved. Once you "know" how to walk, you can do it, and you know you can do it, and you can recognize when you are doing it, but as to how--that is a bit more difficult, for sure.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
(shrug)

It's called a 'dictionary,' used by English speakers to find the definitions of English words.

I'm a retired English teacher. Sue me.

Thank you for so very kindly condescending to educate me! I only hope I can aspire to someday know even more about lexicography, linguistics and semiotics than you have so generously stooped to teach me today.

By the way, what do you think of the ideas of Ferdinand de Saussure on the arbitrariness of meaning -- are they in any way applicable to our discussion in this thread? Being as dull as I am, I just can't quite wrap my head around how they might be -- but no doubt you can help me there. I can scarcely control my excited drooling as I eagerly await you enlightening me on the matter!
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
An fully enlightened person simply has no ignorance concerning a certain subject. Thus someone with a degree in economics is probably far more enlightened about economic theory that I am. I for example am a librarian and am probably far more enlightened about the Dewey Decimal System than most, though I certainly wouldn't claim to be FULLY enlightened, since I'm sure there are things about the system that I'm still ignorant about.


A fully enlightened person simply has no ignorance concerning a certain subject. Thus someone with a degree in economics is probably far more enlightened about economic theory that I am. I for example am a librarian and am probably far more enlightened about the Dewey Decimal System than most, though I certainly wouldn't claim to be FULLY enlightened, since I'm sure there are things about the system that I'm still ignorant about. So your question, what do enlightened people know that others don't? is all dependent upon what subject these people are enlightened about.

If you're talking about spiritual enlightenment, you first need to define what you mean by spiritual.
It's more about the perception of knowledge and an acceptance of it.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
To develop this line of thought a bit further: can you describe how to perform instinctual behaviour such as walking? It's just something that unfolds and develops. One may have to relearn how to walk if you are damaged, and there are physical therapists who can help you with that, and coaches that can help improve your walking and bring it more into consciousness, but the actual act of walking is so complex that the conscious mind will probably become overwhelmed trying to manage all of the factors involved. Once you "know" how to walk, you can do it, and you know you can do it, and you can recognize when you are doing it, but as to how--that is a bit more difficult, for sure.
As a 30 year practitioner of movement I can say that I can walk with mindfulness. Walking poorly is quite common, instinctual or not.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
An fully enlightened person simply has no ignorance concerning a certain subject. Thus someone with a degree in economics is probably far more enlightened about economic theory that I am. I for example am a librarian and am probably far more enlightened about the Dewey Decimal System than most, though I certainly wouldn't claim to be FULLY enlightened, since I'm sure there are things about the system that I'm still ignorant about.


A fully enlightened person simply has no ignorance concerning a certain subject. Thus someone with a degree in economics is probably far more enlightened about economic theory that I am. I for example am a librarian and am probably far more enlightened about the Dewey Decimal System than most, though I certainly wouldn't claim to be FULLY enlightened, since I'm sure there are things about the system that I'm still ignorant about. So your question, what do enlightened people know that others don't? is all dependent upon what subject these people are enlightened about.

If you're talking about spiritual enlightenment, you first need to define what you mean by spiritual.
Knowledge, understanding and wisdom is not enlightenment. It's perception.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Thank you for so very kindly condescending to educate me! I only hope I can aspire to someday know even more about lexicography, linguistics and semiotics than you have so generously stooped to teach me. By the way, what do think of the ideas of Ferdinand de Saussure on the arbitrariness of meaning -- are they in any way applicable to our discussion in this thread? Being as dull as I am, I just can't quite wrap my head around how they might be -- but no doubt you can help me there.

You want to discuss the problem of symbol vs reality? I wouldn't have thought this was the right place, but....

Basically, before we can communicate with one another, we have to have a commonly understood system of symbols that represent ideas. I've never been very patient with the idea that one CAN communicate meaningfully with others if each one has a different idea of what the symbols they use mean. When we have a disparity of viewpoints, such as in here, it is even more important that we each understand what someone ELSE means when a symbol is used...or else we are all simply spinning in place, contemplating our own whichnesses of the why and getting absolutely nowhere.

Dictionaries are a very good place to start; not because they dictate what terms must mean, but because they describe what most people DO mean when they use such symbols.

Sunstone, I know that you don't have a great deal of respect for me, and think I'm pretty darned stupid, all in all, but I did EARN my degrees.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Really? Why should I? I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm genuinely wondering about your thinking here. Why should I define "spiritual enlightenment" for you?

There are threads in which I prefer everyone to use the same definition, but this isn't one of them. So please feel free to use your own.

Because you're asking what they know that others don't know. If you don't define what you mean by a spiritually enlightened person then it's impossible to answer. What does it mean to be 'spiritually enlightened'? Having no ignorance of the spirit? What do you mean by 'spirit'? Unless we define what a spirit is or determine if they even exist how can we decide if someone is enlightened about or has no ignorance of spirits?

If we're talking about being economically enlightened, I know what that means, because I know what economics are. If we're talking about being enlightened about the Dewey Decimal System, I know what that means, because I'm familiar with the system. However, if we're talking about 'spiritual' enlightenment, I DON'T know what you mean, so it's impossible for me to answer.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
It's more about the perception of knowledge and an acceptance of it.

I'm not sure I know what that means. It sounds as if you're saying that someone is enlightened on a subject if they give the perception that they know what they're talking about and at least some people are willing to accept that perception. If so, it seems to me that there's no difference between someone who's 'enlightened' and a successful con artist.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Knowledge, understanding and wisdom is not enlightenment. It's perception.

Another response I don't quite follow. Are you saying enlightenment is perception? Or that knowledge understanding and wisdom are perception? If the latter, please define enlightenment for me. If the former, please elaborate. In what way is enlightenment perception?
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
I'm not sure I know what that means. It sounds as if you're saying that someone is enlightened on a subject if they give the perception that they know what they're talking about and at least some people are willing to accept that perception. If so, it seems to me that there's no difference between someone who's 'enlightened' and a successful con artist.
Explaining enlightenment to someone who isn't is difficult. It's like speaking another language. When knowledge, or reality, is accepted without judgement it is enlightening. I tend to see both side as one instead of a duality. Things just are to me (at least when I'm tuned in that way. Enlightenment comes and goes for me). They are perfect, even in their imperfection.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Sunstone, I know that you don't have a great deal of respect for me, and think I'm pretty darned stupid, all in all, but I did EARN my degrees.

I look at the apparently intentional condescension in post #46 and wonder what there is I should respect about it?
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Another response I don't quite follow. Are you saying enlightenment is perception? Or that knowledge understanding and wisdom are perception? If the latter, please define enlightenment for me. If the former, please elaborate. In what way is enlightenment perception?
Enlightenment is not knowledge, understanding or wisdom. It is perception. It happens when one accepts all things without judgement.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I DON'T know what you mean, so it's impossible for me to answer.

Let's see if I can explain what I'm trying so clumsily to get at here, QM. As I mentioned in the OP, the question I quoted,"What do enlightened people know that others don't?" is not my own. So, that's the first point. I don't really know any more than you do what the author of that question meant by "enlightenment".

Second, I think it's a reasonable guess that they probably meant something along the lines of what you have called, "spiritual enlightenment". Now, that term "spiritual enlightenment" means different things to different people (a point I've somewhat obliquely elaborated on in post #41), as you have pointed out. However, I do not -- as you do -- conclude that means we must all be on the same page in this case. In this case, I think it's interesting to see how different people define that concept differently.

Last, there are times when I think it's important for everyone to be on the same page. Then I usually define the terms in the OP. But this is an instance in which, if someone tells me what they think an enlightened person knows, they are in effect telling me what they think is "spiritual enlightenment" -- or at least some other form of enlightenment. For instance, if someone told me, "An enlightened person knows his or her heart", then I can be pretty confident that they believe at least some part of being enlightened is knowing your heart. So why do I need them to say it twice:

What does "spiritual enlightenment" mean? "It means a person knows their heart"

Ok, so what does an enlightened person know? "They know their heart".

I hope this helps.
 
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