What Do Enlightened People Know that Others Don't?

[sandy whitelinger]

You want to discuss the problem of symbol vs reality? I wouldn't have thought this was the right place, but....

Basically, before we can communicate with one another, we have to have a commonly understood system of symbols that represent ideas. I've never been very patient with the idea that one CAN communicate meaningfully with others if each one has a different idea of what the symbols they use mean. When we have a disparity of viewpoints, such as in here, it is even more important that we each understand what someone ELSE means when a symbol is used...or else we are all simply spinning in place, contemplating our own whichnesses of the why and getting absolutely nowhere.

Dictionaries are a very good place to start; not because they dictate what terms must mean, but because they describe what most people DO mean when they use such symbols.

Ageed.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Explaining enlightenment to someone who isn't is difficult. It's like speaking another language. When knowledge, or reality, is accepted without judgement it is enlightening. I tend to see both side as one instead of a duality. Things just are to me (at least when I'm tuned in that way. Enlightenment comes and goes for me). They are perfect, even in their imperfection.

What does it mean to 'accept knowledge or reality without judgement'? Can you provide an example of accepting knowledge or reality with judgement and an example of accepting knowledge or reality without judgement? What about my posts suggests to you that I am not enlightened or that I always 'accept knowledge or reality with judgement'?

 

[Quagmire]

They know that they don't know anything.

Although, doesn't the second part of that idea kind of negate the first part?

I don't know.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Enlightenment is not knowledge, understanding or wisdom. It is perception. It happens when one accepts all things without judgement.

Okay... so enlightenment is perceiving all things without judgement. Please clarify what you mean by 'accepting things without judgement'. For instance if I 'accept' a rock I come upon am I judging it or not? What is an example of both accepting with judgement and accepting without judgement?

 

[soulsurvivor]

I am curious about how you, dear reader, would answer a question that I found earlier today on a certain noble and esteemed website::

"What Do Enlightened People Know that Others Don't?"



Comments? Jokes? Observations? Muddled Rants? Snotty Remarks? Thinly Disguised Efforts to Solicit Nude Selfies From the Other Posters?


HAPPY BONUS QUESTION: Offhand, in what way(s) is the question a trick question (assuming it is one)?

SECOND HAPPY BONUS QUESTION: Can you be enlightened and yet not consciously know you are enlightened?

EDIT: I have laid out some of my own views about the question in post #41 below for anyone who is interested.


Please Note: My opinions expressed in this thread are my own, do not always reflect established wisdom in these matters, and therefore should be taken with extreme caution. However, all reputable and important Zen Masters themselves agree that it is pure folly for anyone to disagree with me.

I don't think enlightened people know anything more than other (non-enlightened) people with similar experiences and education. However, enlightened people do have access to more than what they know. For instance, Ramkrishna Paramhansa the Indian mystic was not an educated man, but whenever people asked him a question, he would see the answer in a vision right there, and he would describe the vision to the questioner.

 

[dianaiad]

I look at the apparently intentional condescension in post #46 and wonder what there is I should respect about it?

"Apparently" is a good word.
Before you decide that appearances are reality, it would be good to actually ask before responding at the level you only THINK you are being addressed in.

 

[Sunstone]

"Apparently" is a good word.
Before you decide that appearances are reality, it would be good to actually ask before responding at the level you only THINK you are being addressed in.

So sue me.

Some people! They think they can BS a man with 61 years as a BS artist!

But you win! I concede I cannot top that. You can have the last word here. Thanks for the fun times, though!

 

[Sunstone]

Enlightenment is not knowledge, understanding or wisdom. It is perception. It happens when one accepts all things without judgement.

I have heard that almost all of us humans constantly and instantly judge whatever we become conscious of. I know I myself do, and I know it seems to go hand in hand with consciousness itself. Judgement and consciousness seem "joined at the hip" so to speak. Of course, I don't know whether everyone does it. How could I? But I do know I myself was not aware of doing it until I started meditating.

 

[sun rise]

I would agree with you there, based on my limited, non-enlightened understanding of it. But would you say that enlightened people have any kind of knowledge at all? Including, of course, "non-conceptual" knowledge?

Yes, indeed. The knowledge is beyond the concepts of the intellect. This story illustrates what kind of knowledge I had in mind when I answered "yes".

There is a beautiful story of a kasturi-mriga, or musk deer, that brings out the nature of all spiritual sadhana. Once, while roaming about and frolicking among hills and dales, the kasturi-mriga was suddenly aware of an exquisitely beautiful scent, the like of which it had never known. The scent stirred the inner depths of its soul so profoundly that it determined to find the source.

So keen was its longing that notwithstanding the severity of cold or the intensity of scorching heat, by day as well as by night, the deer carried on its desperate search for the source of the sweet scent. It knew no fear or hesitation but undaunted went on its elusive search, until at last, happening to lose its foothold on a cliff, it had a precipitous fall resulting in a fatal injury.

While breathing its last, the deer found that the scent that had ravished its heart and inspired all these efforts came from its own navel. This last moment of the deer's life was its happiest, and there was on its face inexpressible peace.

All spiritual sadhanas of the aspirant are like the efforts of the kasturi-mriga. The final fructification of sadhana involves the termination of the ego-life of the aspirant. At that moment there is the realization that he himself has, in a sense, been the object of all his search and endeavor.

All that he suffered and enjoyed — all his risks and adventures, all his sacrifices and desperate strivings — were intended for achieving true Self-knowledge, in which he loses his limited individuality only to discover that he is really identical with God, who is in everything.

Meher Baba: Achieving True Self-Knowledge

 

[Sunstone]

By "non-conceptual knowledge," do you mean unlearned skill, such as instinct? This would be like a bodhisattva-"a knowing heart." Bodhisattvas are not yet enlightened, but they are in the process of awakening.

To develop this line of thought a bit further: can you describe how to perform instinctual behaviour such as walking? It's just something that unfolds and develops. One may have to relearn how to walk if you are damaged, and there are physical therapists who can help you with that, and coaches that can help improve your walking and bring it more into consciousness, but the actual act of walking is so complex that the conscious mind will probably become overwhelmed trying to manage all of the factors involved. Once you "know" how to walk, you can do it, and you know you can do it, and you can recognize when you are doing it, but as to how--that is a bit more difficult, for sure.

In that context, I was using the term "non-conceptual knowledge" to refer to anything known in a way outside of or apart from symbolic thought or knowledge -- which I think would most likely include what you are calling "unlearned skill" and "instinct", but which might also extend beyond those things.

I hope that helps.

 

[Jumi]

I tend to agree with you there, but I wonder if you could elaborate on what you mean by "know" in this context? For instance, are you talking about conceptual knowledge here, non-conceptual knowledge, both kinds of knowledge -- or does it not matter which kind?

@crossfire pointed out instinctual, thank you for that. I think the knowledge/gnosis is instinctual once one reaches a certain threshold of enlightenment. I'd say there is a large margin of error on what is said though, human communication being what it is... difficult. But when two people have parts of the same instinctual "knowing", everything about communication becomes easier.

 

[syo]

Can I become enlightened just by knowing and accepting as fact that humans are animals?

yes. but it's difficult to accept it.

 

[crossfire]

<...>

What does "spiritual enlightenment" mean? "It means a person knows their heart"

Ok, so what does an enlightened person know? "They know their heart".

I hope this helps.

Actually, I think this is a pretty good definition! They have made their unconscious mind conscious, as Carl Jung would put it.

 

[crossfire]

As a 30 year practitioner of movement I can say that I can walk with mindfulness. Walking poorly is quite common, instinctual or not.

This is a good point. Do you think that becoming consciously mindful of such instinctual behaviour will lead to more development of the mind? It really speaks towards the benefits of being conscious of your breath during meditation.

 

[crossfire]

@crossfire pointed out instinctual, thank you for that. I think the knowledge/gnosis is instinctual once one reaches a certain threshold of enlightenment. I'd say there is a large margin of error on what is said though, human communication being what it is... difficult. But when two people have parts of the same instinctual "knowing", everything about communication becomes easier.

So, do you think that mindful breathing and walking are a couple of ways to help reach this threshold?

This is a good point. Do you think that becoming consciously mindful of such instinctual behaviour will lead to more development of the mind? It really speaks towards the benefits of being conscious of your breath during meditation.

This reminds me of Mindfulness Immersed in the Body as a means to develop the mind and the siddhis.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This is a good point. Do you think that becoming consciously mindful of such instinctual behaviour will lead to more development of the mind? It really speaks towards the benefits of being conscious of your breath during meditation.

It's more about energy movement through the body for my practice.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I think we may ask @Truly Enlightened.

A truly enlightened person understands the weaknesses of the human condition, and strives to be free himself from its insecurities and doubts. An unenlightened person simply knows his limitations. Don.

 

[Vee]

I'd be inclined to agree. But I wonder, Vee, do they care? That is, do they care whether they are swimming with or against popular opinion?

Maybe they do but it must get exhausting. At one point they must ask themselves "is it worth the effort or should I just let go?".

 

[crossfire]

Maybe they do but it must get exhausting. At one point they must ask themselves "is it worth the effort or should I just let go?".

Makes you wonder how many people like Galileo "dropped out" because of this.

 

[siti]

For some reason, at this point in the discussion I find myself inclined to quote myself...

How little they know.

Someone said something along the lines of "an enlightened person has no ignorance" - I honestly think its the opposite. I have spent half a century learning about the world through the lenses of science (professionally) religion (of various hues) and skepticism (by natural instinct) and the only thing I am certain of at this stage is how hopelessly ignorant I am (not that you'd ever get to me admit it on RF...oops - I just admitted it on RF didn't I?). But seriously - in my not so humble, but profoundly ignorant opinion - I reckon anyone who thinks they know what 'it' is all about (intellectually, philsophically, scientifically, intuitively, instinctively, religiously, spiritually...whateverly.) is very far from enlightened - its knowing that you don't know and never will that represents true enlightenment - you have no need to proselytize (for example) because you have no "sure and certain knowledge" to peddle...and you're free to be just in it - "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7) and perfectly happy with that - because there remains an eternity (perhaps) in which to continue to learn - or (far more likely) die trying. In short, for me, enlightenment is about embracing the struggle to find meaning knowing that there probably isn't any - rather than either escaping the struggle or imagining one has found peace in some pat religious answer to it all. Enlightenment is knowing that finding the answers is our own responsibility - and probably an endless task. Enlightenment is knowing that every stone you turn over only deepens the mystery and throws up more insoluble puzzles to ponder. Enlightenment is not knowing. Enlightenment IS ignorance.