Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
In practice; somebody who's belief in the chance creation of everything, is so difficult to support on its own merits, they describe it as a disbelief of anything else.
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What do people think "atheist" means?
- Thread starter ArtieE
- Start date
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Can you elaborate on this?
Well, at least an atheist in Timbuktu agrees with me. I am not sure that a theist in Timuktu agrees with you, though.
Ciao
- viole
Yorutenchi
Member
What do you mean by chance? What do you mean by creation of everything?
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
I could take the exact same position and describe my belief- as merely a disbelief of the alternative- i.e. chance/ spontaneous creation of life and the universe, however you prefer to put it.
But that would not change what it is I do believe in: God. It would just be a way of trying to avoid defending my own belief. I have no reason to do that.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
Our universe, life, being accounted for by a spontaneous mechanism, i.e. without purpose, intent, design.. you know
outhouse
Atheistically
There is much more to theism then refusal of academia, logic, reason and knowledge.
The opposite of your personal position, factually does not define atheism.
outhouse
Atheistically
You cannot defend mythology.
There is also no defense for refusing credible education and replacing it with mythological opinion, so many know better then to try
Yorutenchi
Member
I am confused. I can at least understand that your belief in god may be prompted by the difficulty of it not being designed. Such is a common argument with creationism. But this does not stand up to questions very well. Why would it have to be designed? Questions like that.
And you were saying earlier that the stance of atheists is weak? That the lack of evidence of theistic claims do not give them credibility. What does "chance" have to do with atheism?
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
It's a negative stance ,a-theist, which avoids acknowledging the positive assertion, that everything we see around us somehow got here by chance as opposed to intent. spontaneous mechanism as opposed to design, with no purpose as opposed to with purpose.
However you prefer to put it, we both know what our opposing beliefs are do we not? so why not acknowledge them both as such? compare both positive assertions on their own merits?
Yorutenchi
Member
If I claim that everything is random please take up the position that I am wrong and that there is no evidence for such. If I state that we only have evidence for naturalism and if that is the case, as I believe it to be, one is able to do that. I do not see Atheism and most religious beliefs, especially in the western world, as equal.
There's nothing stopping an atheist from believing that the universe was created just not by a god. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/7972538/Are-we-living-in-a-designer-universe.html
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
Naturalism, okay that's your belief, your positive assertion which is fine- so why not call it that?
But taking the atheist stance I could label myself an a-naturalist. I make no claim, I simply remain unconvinced of naturalism. (and default to the obvious alternative meanwhile)
i.e. - framing a belief as a disbelief- is a way of saying ' until you can prove yours, mine is right by default'
That's why I don't see atheism as equal to religion either, it would have to acknowledge it's own faith to rise to that status
blind faith is faith which does not recognize itself!
Yorutenchi
Member
Atheism isn't a belief. Naturalism is a belief. But atheism is not a belief.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
It's an interesting development, atheism went from static uncreated universes ; no creation = no creator
- to OK maybe there was a creation event but definitely not by design- and now increasingly; OK maybe it was designed- but definitely not by God!
Atheism of the gaps?
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
and likewise, a-naturalism is not a belief. theism is. So the negative prefix labels do not change our actual beliefs one bit, they only disguise them right? why do that?
Guy, atheism has always meant absence of belief in GODS not CREATORS whoever they might be. Atheists don't believe in gods whoever they are. Atheists don't believe your god exists because he's a god, not because the universe couldn't have been created. You are the one who claims that your god is also the creator of the universe.
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
A belief is, by its very nature, also a claim. Unless you are insane, you cannot believe something is true without really thinking that it is actually true.
Yorutenchi
Member
True. But a-naturalism doesn't mean belief in super naturalism. It isn't a belief in god. If you have a belief in god then it is a belief not an against belief.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
Creator of the universe and hence everything in it by intelligent design, a conscious entity who by definition, having created it, transcends time and space as we know it.. no, nothing that could be described as God at all!
Has atheism been reduced to a semantic argument to what name we give God? Theists do the exact same so I'm not sure I see the distinction!