What Do Trump and Republicans Mean by “Collusion”?

[Shaul]

My you sure seem to have a lot of faith in Trump's trustworthiness

Not really. But then I don’t need to. Anti-Trump maniacs have been trying to “get” Trump for years, without success. So it isn’t that I have any particular trust in Trump. It is that I more trust the “Trump deranged” crowd to continue doing what they do with the same lack of success they have had.

 

[Shaul]

Oh, honey. If someone is being investigated for a crime, you can’t simply take their word that they are innocent. That’s because it is in their best interest to lie.

So all people being investigated are guilty? And What makes you think Trump is being investigated for any crime? Mueller has never said he is.

 

[Falvlun]

So all people being investigated are guilty? And What makes you think Trump is being investigated for any crime? Mueller has never said he is.

No, I am saying it is adorably naive to believe that a claim of innocence by a suspect is evidence of innocence.

Remember, it was you who stated that it would be absurd to claim that “Mueller’s investigation has failed to find any evidence of any wrongdoing.... since Mueller hasn’t disclosed all that he has found.”

 

[metis]

Anti-Trump maniacs have been trying to “get” Trump for years, without success.

Trump has done a fantastic job of "getting" himself through his utterly depraved words and actions. Do we really have to post the litany of his many "accomplishments" along that line? How many times does Trump have to violate even the most basic ethics of halacha before you realize just how immoral he has been acting for decades now?

 

[Nous]

Not upset.
Just giving friendly advice so that you'd appear less hostile & histrionic.

I used the term "Trump sycophants" in addition to fans because that's precisely what I meant.

 

[Revoltingest]

I used the term "Trump sycophants" in addition to fans because that's precisely what I meant.

We needn't always phrase opinions of others with such candor when it just creates rancor.

 

[Nous]

I doubt that this would far enough legally though because, by itself, exactly which law(s) is/are broken. I'm certainly no lawyer, but it seems that there would have to be more involved than just acquiring "dirt".

OTOH, how one may acquire "dirt" could be another matter.

Here is: 52 U.S. Code § 30121 - Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

(a) Prohibition It shall be unlawful for—

(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make—

(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;

(B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or

(C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication(within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or​

(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.​

I don't know why stolen emails or other electronic data would not be a "thing of value" during an election campaign. But not everyone agrees that what the Russian lawyer offered and what Trump Jr., Manafort, Kushner, et al. sought to acquire would qualify as a "thing of value".

 

[Nous]

I’m not aware of any Trump supporters that claim that Mueller’s investigation has failed to find any evidence of any wrongdoing. That would be absurd since Mueller hasn’t disclosed all that he has found. What Trump and his supporters have said is that he hasn’t found any evidence of collusion between Trump and Russia.

How can it be deduced that Mueller "hasn't found any evidence of collusion between Trump and Russia" given that "Mueller hasn't disclosed all that he has found"?

Nor is it any problem of defining what collusion is.

Define what it means when Trump, Conaway, et al. make their claims about it.

 

[tytlyf]

I’m not aware of any Trump supporters that claim that Mueller’s investigation has failed to find any evidence of any wrongdoing.

Conservatives say there is 'zero evidence' every day. I can turn on Fox or listen to Rush and they'll both say there is zero evidence.

Conservatives are far too trustworthy of the people they look up to.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Not really. But then I don’t need to. Anti-Trump maniacs have been trying to “get” Trump for years, without success. So it isn’t that I have any particular trust in Trump. It is that I more trust the “Trump deranged” crowd to continue doing what they do with the same lack of success they have had.

The most you could argue for if I grant you this is that he's managed to get off Scot-free for every wrong thing he's ever done. I don't see how that is commendable, or makes him trustworthy. He's done a lot of criminal things his money buys him out off facing consequences for- or facing the ones he actually should.

Trump's problem is, he's never been held accountable for anything he does- or he's learned that the usual rules don't apply to him.

If that's what you argue as his opponents trying to get at him- it isn't his virtue that has caused him to succeed.

 

[Shaul]

Trump has done a fantastic job of "getting" himself through his utterly depraved words and actions. Do we really have to post the litany of his many "accomplishments" along that line? How many times does Trump have to violate even the most basic ethics of halacha before you realize just how immoral he has been acting for decades now?

You mean like becoming a billionaire, being elected President, passing major legislation such as tax reform, and leading the US into major economic growth? Yeah, he has done so terribly.

 

[Shaul]

The most you could argue for if I grant you this is that he's managed to get off Scot-free for every wrong thing he's ever done. I don't see how that is commendable, or makes him trustworthy. He's done a lot of criminal things his money buys him out off facing consequences for- or facing the ones he actually should.

Trump's problem is, he's never been held accountable for anything he does- or he's learned that the usual rules don't apply to him.

If that's what you argue as his opponents trying to get at him- it isn't his virtue that has caused him to succeed.

You seem to be confusing Trump with the Clintons.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You mean like becoming a billionaire, being elected President, passing major legislation such as tax reform, and leading the US into major economic growth? Yeah, he has done so terribly.

...and I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Shaul]

Conservatives say there is 'zero evidence' every day. I can turn on Fox or listen to Rush and they'll both say there is zero evidence.

Conservatives are far too trustworthy of the people they look up to.

Well since you think there is evidence post it.

 

[Shaul]

How can it be deduced that Mueller "hasn't found any evidence of collusion between Trump and Russia" given that "Mueller hasn't disclosed all that he has found"?

Because the things we noche has considered have been debunked. Because Trump is presumed innocent unless evidence is produced. Trump denies there is such evidence just as an innocent person would be expected to. You may discount that as evidence, but it is evidence even if it isn’t conclusive. It is a fact that Mueller has not disclosed any evidence of collusion between Trump and Russia. With each day that he doesn’t it is more likely he has none. It is not required for a presumed innocent person to prove a negative. Trump say there is no evidence. Unless you can produce such evidence legally we must presume he is right.

 

[tytlyf]

Well since you think there is evidence post it.

But you're saying there is zero evidence because we haven't seen any yet. I think it's fair to say that there is plenty of evidence so far of TrumpCo working with russia to influence the election. We've already seen guilty pleas.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

You seem to be confusing Trump with the Clintons.

Nope I'm not falling for the 'but Clinton' tactic.

Trump's crimes are a matter of court record. Are you going to deny those?

 

[metis]

You mean like becoming a billionaire, being elected President, passing major legislation such as tax reform, and leading the US into major economic growth? Yeah, he has done so terribly.

So, some materialistic successes are more important than moral character is what you're saying. Too bad Torah doesn't agree with you.

Secondly, the evaluation of the tax program even by conservative economists has it that this will jack up the deficit and hurt the poor, especially with the cuts to Medicaid, and this also defies what Torah would suggest in terms of hurting the poor.

Thirdly, the line of economic growth has been actually fairly consistent starting in 2011 until today, and Trump has only been president for a bit over a year.

So, I have to ask this, namely is your money more important to you than having a moral character? Maybe ask your rabbi what he thinks.

 

[Falvlun]

Well since you think there is evidence post it.

HERE

Not conclusive, but also non-zero.

 

[Falvlun]

. Trump denies there is such evidence just as an innocent person would be expected to. You may discount that as evidence, but it is evidence even if it isn’t conclusive.

It is also exactly what you’d expect a guilty person to do. Both innocent and guilty people claim innocence. That is why claims of innocence cannot be used to distinguish between the two.

Imagine we are trying to distinguish whether a shape is a square or a rectangle. And I say “well, it has 4 right angles. That is evidence it is a square and not a rectangle.”

I would be wrong, because both squares and rectangles have 4 right angles. That cannot be used to distinguish between the two shapes, just like a claim of innocence cannot be used to distinguish between innocence and guilt.

.It is a fact that Mueller has not disclosed any evidence of collusion between Trump and Russia. With each day that he doesn’t it is more likely he has none.

That is also incorrect. Special counsel investigations usually take years, with indictments trickling in throughout. Check out the time frame of other investigations: HERE.

It is not even a year into the investigation. Compared to the time frame of others, it is not evidence of innocence that his investigation has not yet indicted Trump’s campaign for Russian collusion.