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What do you feel is wrong with Islam?
- Thread starter S.Z (Muslim)
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
Many of Paul's letters were addressed to Greek cities, thus it is understandable that Paul wrote in Greek.
Also Judaea, and other kingdoms were bilinguals. Aramaic and Koine (Greek) were both lingua franca in that part of the world. Greek names were clearly in use, eg. Philip, Thomas. And Christ is used more than Messiah.
In 2nd century BCE, Greek had almost displaced Latin as the preferred language in Rome. The Roman elitists were bilinguists in this period.
Also Judaea, and other kingdoms were bilinguals. Aramaic and Koine (Greek) were both lingua franca in that part of the world. Greek names were clearly in use, eg. Philip, Thomas. And Christ is used more than Messiah.
In 2nd century BCE, Greek had almost displaced Latin as the preferred language in Rome. The Roman elitists were bilinguists in this period.
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
I heard that it is ok for a Muslim to lie to his enemies. There is a name for this act.
kai
ragamuffin
this thread ran out of steam but if i may i would point you here for your answer
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/62647-islamic-law-applied.html#post1082067
kai
ragamuffin
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
gnostic
The Lost One
Trust Muhammad for inventing another loophole.
There is a loophole for killing non-Muslims.
There is a loophole for beating up a wife.
It is strange how Muslims can be strict in one sense, but slippery in another when the law applies to him. It is act of hypocrisy made perfect, IMO.
This is why I don't trust Islamic laws, or any religious laws for that matter, to be just. It is why I couldn't trust Muslim judge, jury or any Muslim justice system.
There is a loophole for killing non-Muslims.
There is a loophole for beating up a wife.
It is strange how Muslims can be strict in one sense, but slippery in another when the law applies to him. It is act of hypocrisy made perfect, IMO.
This is why I don't trust Islamic laws, or any religious laws for that matter, to be just. It is why I couldn't trust Muslim judge, jury or any Muslim justice system.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Taqqiyih is much more prevalent and much more abused in Shi'ih Islam than in Sunni.
The practice is so prevalent that it is one of the reasons that Shi'ih Muslims find it so strange that Baha`i's do not practice it to escape imprisonment and execution. The practice is expressly forbidden by Baha`u'llah. So much so that if a Baha`i DOES practice taqqiyih to escape, it usually results in forfeiture of membership rights in the faith.
Regards,
Scott
DarkSun
:eltiT
I have mixed feelings about taqiyya....
As I understand it, taqiyya is defined as the act concealing one's faith in order to escape persecution. Misleading a prosecutor about one's own loyalties, to spare oneself from something such as torture may not be so bad. Would God really want us to go through such a thing? It's not as if the denial was meant.
On the other hand... no matter how you look at it, taqiyya is ultimately the denial of one's own faith. Whether the fidelity of such denial is true becomes insignificant when faced with the fact that individual beliefs are worth dying for.... They're what make us human.
Don't get me wrong. To pick up a knife and stab another soley because of faith is twisted. What I mean is that faith and hope, for many people, is a reason for existence...
Whether, under some circumstances, holding true to such a purpose is really worth suffering is up to the individual.
And as I've said, I don't see how God could possibly look down on another for choosing to act on taqiyya.
As I understand it, taqiyya is defined as the act concealing one's faith in order to escape persecution. Misleading a prosecutor about one's own loyalties, to spare oneself from something such as torture may not be so bad. Would God really want us to go through such a thing? It's not as if the denial was meant.
On the other hand... no matter how you look at it, taqiyya is ultimately the denial of one's own faith. Whether the fidelity of such denial is true becomes insignificant when faced with the fact that individual beliefs are worth dying for.... They're what make us human.
Don't get me wrong. To pick up a knife and stab another soley because of faith is twisted. What I mean is that faith and hope, for many people, is a reason for existence...
Whether, under some circumstances, holding true to such a purpose is really worth suffering is up to the individual.
And as I've said, I don't see how God could possibly look down on another for choosing to act on taqiyya.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"Dissimulation" or taqiyya in the Persian sense is a fascinating topic.
"
Conclusions
"
Conclusions
1. Taqiyyah has its roots in Iranian psyche. It was a wide spread practice amongst the defeated Zoroastrians after the devastating series of defeats they suffered at the hands of Islamic warriors.
2. Taqiyyah became especially important to Iranians once they converted to the Shi`ite branch of Islam under the Safavids.
3. The Founders of Shaykhi school used taqiyyah to promulgate their anticipation for the coming of the “Perfect Shi’i”. Shaykhi literature contain numerous references to ‘secrets’ of resurrection and the inability of the common people to understand them.
4. At the time of the revelation of Bab, the ferocity of prejudice and hatred was such that He first revealed his position as the Deputy to the Hidden Imam. Taqiyyah was an essential requirement during the early phase of the revelation simply because the level of prejudice within the society could have totally crushed the movement before it had a chance to spread.
5. The Bab even ordered many of his followers to practice taqiyyah in order to spread the cause and carry out importance services for the faith.
6. As the Babi cause progressed and their numbers grew, the Bab revealed his true identity as the Hidden Imam and a manifestation from God. This claim effectively made the Babi faith independent from other Shi`ite sects. Mulla Husayn was now appointed to the position of Deputy of the Hidden Imam.
7. After the martyrdom of the Bab and the severe persecutions that followed in the ensuing years, the practice of taqiyyah became popular amongst the Babis. There were many instances of learned Babis concealing their faith and evidence of Mass taqiyyah in a number of cities.
8. Many of those who recanted their faith continued to support and assist other Babis in times of need. For others the practice of taqiyyah was a forerunner to their eventual abandonment of their faith. A few even engaged in the active persecution of their former colleagues. On the other hand many abandoned taqiyyah and later lost their life for their Faith.
9. There are a number of treaties and compilations written by Babis who practiced taqiyyah. It is difficult to ascertain their success in assisting the Cause. Such works were indicative of the inner struggle within the Babis in proclaiming their true identity.
10. Taqiyyah was in many instances used to conceal one’s faith from the threats posed by the immediate family members.
11. Taqiyyah did not always result in saving one’s life. It was largely a circumstantial confession. Many Babis lost their lives even though they had earlier recanted their faith.
12. Bahaullah clearly announced that the recognition of the manifestation of God and ‘steadfastness’ His Cause is more important than observing any of the other teachings. Gradual abandonment of taqiyyah amongst the Baha’is was one of the distinguishing feature of the new religion from the Babi era. After this time the practice of taqiyyah became unofficially superseded.
13. In contrast the Azali Babis glorified taqiyyah in their literature. taqiyyah was considered a virtue and classified into various levels of concealment. Prominent Azali leaders openly recanted their faith and even abused Bab and Azal in the process. The extent of taqiyyah in their words and actions caused Mirza Abu’l-Fadl to question Edward Browne’s method of portraying of Azali Babis. Taqiyyah became one of the distinguishing features of the Azali-Bahai split. "
The Practice of Taqiya (Dissimulation)
Thanks to Sepehr Manuchehri
2. Taqiyyah became especially important to Iranians once they converted to the Shi`ite branch of Islam under the Safavids.
3. The Founders of Shaykhi school used taqiyyah to promulgate their anticipation for the coming of the “Perfect Shi’i”. Shaykhi literature contain numerous references to ‘secrets’ of resurrection and the inability of the common people to understand them.
4. At the time of the revelation of Bab, the ferocity of prejudice and hatred was such that He first revealed his position as the Deputy to the Hidden Imam. Taqiyyah was an essential requirement during the early phase of the revelation simply because the level of prejudice within the society could have totally crushed the movement before it had a chance to spread.
5. The Bab even ordered many of his followers to practice taqiyyah in order to spread the cause and carry out importance services for the faith.
6. As the Babi cause progressed and their numbers grew, the Bab revealed his true identity as the Hidden Imam and a manifestation from God. This claim effectively made the Babi faith independent from other Shi`ite sects. Mulla Husayn was now appointed to the position of Deputy of the Hidden Imam.
7. After the martyrdom of the Bab and the severe persecutions that followed in the ensuing years, the practice of taqiyyah became popular amongst the Babis. There were many instances of learned Babis concealing their faith and evidence of Mass taqiyyah in a number of cities.
8. Many of those who recanted their faith continued to support and assist other Babis in times of need. For others the practice of taqiyyah was a forerunner to their eventual abandonment of their faith. A few even engaged in the active persecution of their former colleagues. On the other hand many abandoned taqiyyah and later lost their life for their Faith.
9. There are a number of treaties and compilations written by Babis who practiced taqiyyah. It is difficult to ascertain their success in assisting the Cause. Such works were indicative of the inner struggle within the Babis in proclaiming their true identity.
10. Taqiyyah was in many instances used to conceal one’s faith from the threats posed by the immediate family members.
11. Taqiyyah did not always result in saving one’s life. It was largely a circumstantial confession. Many Babis lost their lives even though they had earlier recanted their faith.
12. Bahaullah clearly announced that the recognition of the manifestation of God and ‘steadfastness’ His Cause is more important than observing any of the other teachings. Gradual abandonment of taqiyyah amongst the Baha’is was one of the distinguishing feature of the new religion from the Babi era. After this time the practice of taqiyyah became unofficially superseded.
13. In contrast the Azali Babis glorified taqiyyah in their literature. taqiyyah was considered a virtue and classified into various levels of concealment. Prominent Azali leaders openly recanted their faith and even abused Bab and Azal in the process. The extent of taqiyyah in their words and actions caused Mirza Abu’l-Fadl to question Edward Browne’s method of portraying of Azali Babis. Taqiyyah became one of the distinguishing features of the Azali-Bahai split. "
The Practice of Taqiya (Dissimulation)
Thanks to Sepehr Manuchehri
fullyveiled muslimah
Evil incarnate!
The way I have understood it is not as it has been presented by some in this thread, that it is the obligation or permission to lie about one's iman or Islam in order to be perceived as something it isn't or to make it look better in the eyes of people. I for one have never, and have never considered even one single solitary time, to lie about Islam or any aspect thereof. I am way more willing to admit that I do not know something than to outright lie about it. It's beneath me, and is not something we are encouraged to do at all. The practice of taqiyya is much more prevelant among shi'ite than sunni.
As I have understood it there are cases where it is permissible to lie, and kai was the one who posted the relevant hadith on it. The first case is war which should be obvious why lying would be effective and even necessary in such a case. If you have a tactical or other advantage over an enemy, would you be truthful about it?
The other case is to lie to a spouse so they will be pleased with you. For example, a man's wife has self-esteem issues. She asks him if he thinks she looks nice in an outfit or whatever. She really doesn't look all that great in it, but to spare her feelings he tells her she looks fantastic. I don't know of a husband, wife, or a friend who has not done this. You can't lie about other things just to make a spouse happy though. Like, 'are you cheating on me?" ...."why of course not baby". You can't do that. First of all the cheating is totally haram, so doing it is wrong and lying about it doubly so.
Another instance where this is useful, is a situation where this one sister's mother was in a nursing home. The mother had I think Alzheimer's or something like that, and therefore her memory was very bad. Everytime she visited her mother, she would ask about the welfare of her father. The lady's father had been dead for some time, but the mother could not remember that. At first the daughter was telling her mother that her father was dead, but this became unbearable because it was like saying it for the first time every time. Feeling constrained to tell the truth, she asked a scholar if it was okay to lie about this seeing the condition of her mother, and the scholar related the hadith about the three times where lying was seen as permissible.
The other time was to lie to two people to encourage good relations between them. Let's say my two best friends are mad at each other for a silly reason. They aren't talking. So I go to one friend and instead of tell her any nasty things the other one said about her I tell her something nice. I do the same to the other friend. This eventually softens their hearts towards one another, and they may speak again. Even if I lied about the nice things, it works to end enmity between people. Sort of the opposite of back-biting people.
The situation of torture would be another one where lying might not be so bad, and would fall under the category of war. I must not be constrained to tell the truth about my faith if I am to be tortured about it. If I am being tortured to deny my faith, then I am allowed to do so as long as I am only paying lip service to it and I don't mean it. That's a tricky one though, because what if I do end up meaning it. Personally I would probably opt to die, but what if I'm not the one being tortured? What if the person says he'll kill one kid for everytime I affirm my faith and don't deny it? Should I continue to affirm my faith with the lives of innocent people in the balance, or should I say what he wants me to say just to spare lives? Which would be more honorable in the eyesights of Allah, to spare many lives or say I believe in Him, when my believing is better displayed by my actions of saving life than paying lip service to it?
As I have understood it there are cases where it is permissible to lie, and kai was the one who posted the relevant hadith on it. The first case is war which should be obvious why lying would be effective and even necessary in such a case. If you have a tactical or other advantage over an enemy, would you be truthful about it?
The other case is to lie to a spouse so they will be pleased with you. For example, a man's wife has self-esteem issues. She asks him if he thinks she looks nice in an outfit or whatever. She really doesn't look all that great in it, but to spare her feelings he tells her she looks fantastic. I don't know of a husband, wife, or a friend who has not done this. You can't lie about other things just to make a spouse happy though. Like, 'are you cheating on me?" ...."why of course not baby". You can't do that. First of all the cheating is totally haram, so doing it is wrong and lying about it doubly so.
Another instance where this is useful, is a situation where this one sister's mother was in a nursing home. The mother had I think Alzheimer's or something like that, and therefore her memory was very bad. Everytime she visited her mother, she would ask about the welfare of her father. The lady's father had been dead for some time, but the mother could not remember that. At first the daughter was telling her mother that her father was dead, but this became unbearable because it was like saying it for the first time every time. Feeling constrained to tell the truth, she asked a scholar if it was okay to lie about this seeing the condition of her mother, and the scholar related the hadith about the three times where lying was seen as permissible.
The other time was to lie to two people to encourage good relations between them. Let's say my two best friends are mad at each other for a silly reason. They aren't talking. So I go to one friend and instead of tell her any nasty things the other one said about her I tell her something nice. I do the same to the other friend. This eventually softens their hearts towards one another, and they may speak again. Even if I lied about the nice things, it works to end enmity between people. Sort of the opposite of back-biting people.
The situation of torture would be another one where lying might not be so bad, and would fall under the category of war. I must not be constrained to tell the truth about my faith if I am to be tortured about it. If I am being tortured to deny my faith, then I am allowed to do so as long as I am only paying lip service to it and I don't mean it. That's a tricky one though, because what if I do end up meaning it. Personally I would probably opt to die, but what if I'm not the one being tortured? What if the person says he'll kill one kid for everytime I affirm my faith and don't deny it? Should I continue to affirm my faith with the lives of innocent people in the balance, or should I say what he wants me to say just to spare lives? Which would be more honorable in the eyesights of Allah, to spare many lives or say I believe in Him, when my believing is better displayed by my actions of saving life than paying lip service to it?
It is indeed good that you do not lie about your religion unlike many Saudis and Iranians as they lie all the time.
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Adib
Lover of World Religions
Please don't generalize.
how about the additions to the Quran by the Saudis who print the majority of the Qurans,was there a mention of tanks in the first print ummmmmmmmm i think not
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
I think that claim needs a citation. Want to put up a jpeg of the page in question, I'll get it translated on my own, thanks.
I won't say you are lying, but you have been known in the past to swallow propaganda whole and vomit it forth to others.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Indeed, and that is the proper test. It's why I accept Muhammed as an Apostle of God, and the Qur'an as a Revelation from God.
Regards,
Scott
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
The fact you need to make a thread like this...
kai
ragamuffin
he is in fact taking his information from a channel 4 progamme in the UK called "the Quran" which showed a Saudi printing operation at King Fahd Holy Qur'an printing Complex in Al- Madina putting words like tank , rocket,christian ,jew etc into translations which are sent out by the million.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/67974-quran-channel-4-a.html