What do you get from being atheist?

[PureX]

I saw this question (or one very like it) over the last few days. I can't remember in which thread, or who asked the question, and it doesn't matter. But it does bring up something that I think is really important to the endless arguments between theists and atheists. (I'm not picking any particular theism, no individual religion.)

The reason the question is interesting is because it seems to make a deep assumption, but one that doesn't really seem appropriate -- and that deep assumption is that there is "something useful, something good, something valuable or precious" in holding a belief (or beliefs) about deities, and that the same must hold true about NOT holding such beliefs.

Let me try an example or two: if I don't have any theistic belief, I have my Sundays (or Fridays, or Saturdays or longer periods of religious observance) free. If I don't have any theistic belief, I am free to do anything I like (including murder and rape!).

This is analogically false!

I understand that having a belief in a loving deity, or a saviour, or an afterlife in a heaven or Valhalla can feel comforting and precious. I can see how having a set of rules (positive and negative) can feel as if difficult questions have been pre-decided or answered for you. I can even see how those rules might help you feel more comfortable rejecting -- or even mistreating -- those who aren't like you in those rules.

But here it is: there is nothing to be gained, nothing of value, nothing to provide comfort or guidance, in not believing in deities. We don't get anything from it. It doesn't comfort us, or frighten us. It demands nothing of us. It does not inform our morals any more than it informs our food preferences.

So you lose all those possible positive effects, and you gain nothing at all.

Seems like a foolish choice, especially when it's based on nothing but a dislike of religion.

Which brings us the question that theists will immediately ask: "so why disbelieve, why not believe in a deity and gain all the benefits I feel I get?"

And the answer is perfectly simple: because we cannot change our belief on the basis of hoped-for benefits -- any more than theists can change their beliefs on the basis of a desire to be free of all those commandments and rules. To pretend to accept the idea of a deity gives us nothing, because it is pretense. The only thing that can change a deeply-held belief is convincing evidence to refute that which informs those beliefs. And therein lies a deep, deep blockage -- "convincing" is totally subjective: what convinces me isn't necessarily what convinces you.

So ya'll trapped yourself in your own unbreakable bias simply because you don't know how to let go of it. That you can let go of it by simply recognizing it for what It is: a baseless, biased, opinion that you blindly mistook for the truth.

 

[RestlessSoul]

@SalixIncendium: It gives me the power to make good decisions - I didn't say that I use that power excessively.

We all have the potential to make good decisions, or foolish ones. How much power any of us have to decide freely, is a philosophical point that's not easily resolved, but we can reasonably assume that we all have some agency in our own lives.

It's unclear to me how adherence to any given 'ism' might help with this. Do you consult your atheism, when it's unclear to you which of two paths you should take? If you do, what does this process look like?

 

[Heyo]

We all have the potential to make good decisions, or foolish ones. How much power any of us have to decide freely, is a philosophical point that's not easily resolved, but we can reasonably assume that we all have some agency in our own lives.

It's unclear to me how adherence to any given 'ism' might help with this. Do you consult your atheism, when it's unclear to you which of two paths you should take? If you do, what does this process look like?

Hmm, I guess you are right. It isn't my atheism I consult, but my critical thinking skills. Atheism (and for me, furthermore Agnosticism) is also a result of critical thinking but it isn't the source of the knowledge of true and false things. I have to think of a better answer.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So you lose all those possible positive effects, and you gain nothing at all.

Seems like a foolish choice, especially when it's based on nothing but a dislike of religion.

If it were a choice, it might be foolish. In my opinion, I think it is foolish of YOU to suppose that we get to choose everything we believe. We don't, you know. I cannot believe the Abrahamic God -- the only one with which I am familiar -- because the evidence points too strongly against. And I cannot choose to believe something I know nothing about, which is all those other "gods" that humans cling so tenaciously to.

And you forget that there are positive effects available from philosophy. Philosophy is a way of thinking about certain subjects such as ethics, thought, existence, time, meaning and value. That 'way of thinking' involves 4 Rs: responsiveness, reflection, reason and re-evaluation. The aim is to deepen understanding. The hope is that by doing philosophy we learn to think better, to act more wisely, and thereby help to improve the quality of all our lives.

So ya'll trapped yourself in your own unbreakable bias simply because you don't know how to let go of it. That you can let go of it by simply recognizing it for what It is: a baseless, biased, opinion that you foolishly mistook for the truth.

And you, of course, are not trapped because you are so much wiser than everybody else, and so much more familiar with "the truth," as if truth is an independent thing.

 

[Heyo]

Knowledge of true and false things gives me the power to make good decisions.

As has been pointed out to me (by @RestlessSoul) this doesn't answer the question. (I.e. it's a non sequitur.)
Thinking about it again, I have to say that I get nothing from my atheism (except trivialities like no pressure to visit a temple and not having to pay church taxes).
I'm not an atheist/Agnostic because I get something out of it. Atheism isn't the reason I want to believe as many true thing and as few false things as possible - it is the consequence of that desire.
And, as @Evangelicalhumanist has pointed out, I don't think we have doxastic voluntarism. I couldn't believe in a god if I wanted.

 

[F1fan]

Of course. I'm just pointing out that many atheists tend to paint their picture of religious people with a very broad brush. No fault of theirs based on the limitations of their perspective, but once such things are pointed out, continuing to paint with that same brush equates to willful ignorance.

Criticism by non-theists can be rather broad brush. Some of the criticism is aimed at human behavior and how humans evolved, and that is a broad application. I often ask individuals why they believe what they do and they seem to be stumped by the question, and answers are typically superficial. It's notable that Western believers think their God is materially (ironic) real but can't explain how they know this, or were able to come to a reasoned conclusion, which requires facts.

I think one issue that non-believers don't get is how believers are open to the social influence around them. Religious belief and affiliation is highly correlated to where a person is born. The religious map is largely due to migration, governing, and war in the second millenium of the Common Era. North and South America was exclusively native populations and ritual systems until Europeans showed up, and now these continents are mostly Christians of some sort.

It's notable that many citizens of these continents know what they believe as they grow up in a community, but do they understand why they believe it? Are they taught how humans evolved to be tribal and adopt social norms and rituals for the sake of identity and cohesion? No. Are they taught about the divesity of religious belief that differs from their own? Seldom. I watched my cousins grow up as Catholics, and all 9 of them HAD to go to Mass on Christmas. My protestant family didn't have this obligation. Even as my cousins grew up into adulthood they were conditioned to the obligation of going to Mass. Many of them would go to Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve to "get it over with". I asked them why go at all if they weren't into it? And they all felt obligated. Two of them eventually opted not to go, but the rest continued the tradition with their kids. I never pressed the issue, but the youngest is likely an atheist given some of the things he's said on Facebook.

I always found this very interesting, and what motivates people to believe in religious frameworks, and why they tend to adopt the one that is prevalent in their social experience, and not some other option. I suspect the primary reason people believe at all is their attachment to the ideas and the tribe. It's difficult to let go of comfortable beliefs, especially as we age and seek stability in a world that is always in flux.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I saw this question (or one very like it) over the last few days. I can't remember in which thread, or who asked the question, and it doesn't matter. But it does bring up something that I think is really important to the endless arguments between theists and atheists. (I'm not picking any particular theism, no individual religion.)

The reason the question is interesting is because it seems to make a deep assumption, but one that doesn't really seem appropriate -- and that deep assumption is that there is "something useful, something good, something valuable or precious" in holding a belief (or beliefs) about deities, and that the same must hold true about NOT holding such beliefs.

Let me try an example or two: if I don't have any theistic belief, I have my Sundays (or Fridays, or Saturdays or longer periods of religious observance) free. If I don't have any theistic belief, I am free to do anything I like (including murder and rape!).

This is analogically false!

I understand that having a belief in a loving deity, or a saviour, or an afterlife in a heaven or Valhalla can feel comforting and precious. I can see how having a set of rules (positive and negative) can feel as if difficult questions have been pre-decided or answered for you. I can even see how those rules might help you feel more comfortable rejecting -- or even mistreating -- those who aren't like you in those rules.

But here it is: there is nothing to be gained, nothing of value, nothing to provide comfort or guidance, in not believing in deities. We don't get anything from it. It doesn't comfort us, or frighten us. It demands nothing of us. It does not inform our morals any more than it informs our food preferences.

Which brings us the question that theists will immediately ask: "so why disbelieve, why not believe in a deity and gain all the benefits I feel I get?"

And the answer is perfectly simple: because we cannot change our belief on the basis of hoped-for benefits -- any more than theists can change their beliefs on the basis of a desire to be free of all those commandments and rules. To pretend to accept the idea of a deity gives us nothing, because it is pretense. The only thing that can change a deeply-held belief is convincing evidence to refute that which informs those beliefs. And therein lies a deep, deep blockage -- "convincing" is totally subjective: what convinces me isn't necessarily what convinces you.

I think the Christian's question is rooted in a sort of chauvinism... or at least a failure to understand other points of view.

What I "get out of" not believing in the Christian God is probably very similar to what the Christian "gets out of" not believing in Thor.

 

[Orbit]

To paraphrase a common retort: 'some of our best and most valued friends are Christians.'

We've dined with them. We''ve vacationed with them. We've spent hours working with them at soup kitchens and nights sitting with them while helping out at homeless shelters.

I've marched with them and sat-in with them and have even been arrested with them.

I would far rather share time with them than with those who promote such a pathetic and distorted profile of faith communities.

That's great. I just don't want to be one of them. I find their culture oppressive.

What I said isn't "distorted"; it's my view and experience having been raised as a Christian and having lived as a Christian for forty years.

Kumbaya, man, kumbayah.

 

[Eli G]

Let's say that my God is the true God, the living God, the Most High in heaven and earth, the Creator of everything... Let's say that I know Him, that He has shown me His power over everything and that I have no doubt that only He, He is God and no one can surpass Him in absolutely anything.

Suppose that you, another person completely alien to what I know and have experienced, alien to my God, and who does not know Him, begins to relate to my God through me, because as His servant He has sent me to tell you about Him and about all the good things that He is going to give humans, let them stand on the side of truth and justice...

Suppose a time has passed in which you have heard me talk about my God... but now you already know Him, and now you know that everything I explained to you at the beginning when you did not know God was true. Now you have a more direct relationship with Him, you no longer need me to know Him, and to understand that He is the living and true God and there is no other...

Tell me, did the identity of God change simply because you denied Him at the beginning? What did change: He or your knowledge of Him?

What do you need to know God?
He left you a letter (the Bible) and sent His servants to call you... Will you listen to know Him?

 

[bobhikes]

I saw this question (or one very like it) over the last few days. I can't remember in which thread, or who asked the question, and it doesn't matter. But it does bring up something that I think is really important to the endless arguments between theists and atheists. (I'm not picking any particular theism, no individual religion.)


And the answer is perfectly simple: because we cannot change our belief on the basis of hoped-for benefits -- any more than theists can change their beliefs on the basis of a desire to be free of all those commandments and rules. To pretend to accept the idea of a deity gives us nothing, because it is pretense. The only thing that can change a deeply-held belief is convincing evidence to refute that which informs those beli

You pretty much summed up my feelings. Being that I was a searcher I originally got a satisfaction of belief and was able to stop searching. Because I was religious, I was able to dump my religious guilt. Other than that, life has pretty much been the same. When I had religion, I went to church sporadically. I still go today on various holidays for my family. My friends and family still have the same relationship with me. Work is still as annoying as ever. Nature doesn't care.

 

[Eli G]

Knowing the reality about our origin does matter. Our future depends on our origin. A Creator like the One we have, have made us for a good purpose, as we see in all the things he created for our enjoyment.

Since our Creator's purpose for humanity is good, wouldn't it be worth knowing? Our personal future and that of our family depends on it.

 

[osgart]

Not everywhere you don't, and not for most of history. Heck, when I was younger, and a lonely orphan on the streets of Toronto, on Saturday nights the tables at the bar had to be cleared by midnight (so there would be no drinking on Sunday), and of course, everything was closed on Sunday. I hated Sunday -- and Christmas and Easter -- with a huge passion. And it was forced on me by theists, no doubt on the lookout for my poor soul if it ever dared enter such a place as a bar on "the Lord's Day." That was not freedom, I can tell you. And it was a long, long fight before theists would loosen their grip on the "moral behaviours" of other people.

And in many places in the world, if you even mention that you are an atheist, you are subject to some pretty harsh retribution from theists. You may, as you say, get to use your own mind, but you'd better keep a lot of what it thinks to yourself.

And I don't doubt that, while the retribution may be less harsh, the social pressure to keep your atheism to yourself can be quite high in many places in the rural south of the United States, too. I wonder how many atheists actually go to church just to keep on the good side of their society.

I still keep my atheism to myself within my own family. I've never encountered such a situation as you've encountered though. I live in Western New York, and I had to go to private Catholic schools. Among my own classmates we've never mentioned the subject of atheism or theism. I only knew one person who mocked the Bible. Most classmates had other interests besides religion. By the music my classmates listened to you'd never think of them as theists; from punk music to the Grateful Dead.

 

[PureX]

Criticism by non-theists can be rather broad brush. Some of the criticism is aimed at human behavior and how humans evolved, and that is a broad application. I often ask individuals why they believe what they do and they seem to be stumped by the question, and answers are typically superficial.

It's a bit like asking someone why they speak their native language, dress in their native attire, eat their native foods, and spend most of their time with 'natives', though. It's just not a question that most people would contemplate. As they are who they are, and where they are, and how they are, and always have been. I might ask myself those kinds of questions because that's how my mind works, but I've been around long enough to know that this is not how a lot of people approach life. Most people, in fact. Most people just don't question the status quo, or even notice it, unless they've somehow gotten cross-ways of it. So it shouldn't be so surprising that when you ask those people those kinds of questions, you get a bit of a blank stare, back.

It's notable that Western believers think their God is materially (ironic) real but can't explain how they know this, or were able to come to a reasoned conclusion, which requires facts.

No western theists think their God exists as a material entity. Many theists, however, all across the world, tend to believe that their God/gods control material reality. That their God/gods can make it rain of stop it from raining. And your personal assessments of why they choose to believe this are going to be quite irrelevant to them. Why would it be otherwise?

I think one issue that non-believers don't get is how believers are open to the social influence around them. Religious belief and affiliation is highly correlated to where a person is born.

Sure. So is the language they speak, the clothing they wear, the foods they eat, the dwellings they build to live in, and on and on ... just as it is with you. And why wouldn't they be?

It's notable that many citizens of these continents know what they believe as they grow up in a community, but do they understand why they believe it?

Do you?

Most people don't question the status quo unless and until they are forced to. And then they aren't likely to be very good at it because they just want to be back in alignment with it.

Are they taught how humans evolved to be tribal and adopt social norms and rituals for the sake of identity and cohesion? No. Are they taught about the divesity of religious belief that differs from their own? Seldom. I watched my cousins grow up as Catholics, and all 9 of them HAD to go to Mass on Christmas. My protestant family didn't have this obligation. Even as my cousins grew up into adulthood they were conditioned to the obligation of going to Mass. Many of them would go to Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve to "get it over with". I asked them why go at all if they weren't into it? And they all felt obligated. Two of them eventually opted not to go, but the rest continued the tradition with their kids. I never pressed the issue, but the youngest is likely an atheist given some of the things he's said on Facebook.

We all walk our own paths in life, and none of us knows where we're going or how to get there.

I always found this very interesting, and what motivates people to believe in religious frameworks, and why they tend to adopt the one that is prevalent in their social experience, and not some other option.

Why would you find this so interesting? Why isn't your own path giving you enough food for thought?

I suspect the primary reason people believe at all is their attachment to the ideas and the tribe. It's difficult to let go of comfortable beliefs, especially as we age and seek stability in a world that is always in flux.

I fail to see the problem there. Had I been more like that kind of person my life would likely have been a lot easier. But I'm just not. So it is what it is.

 

[Heyo]

Let's say that my God is the true God, the living God, the Most High in heaven and earth, the Creator of everything... Let's say that I know Him, that He has shown me His power over everything and that I have no doubt that only He, He is God and no one can surpass Him in absolutely anything.

Suppose that you, another person completely alien to what I know and have experienced, alien to my God, and who does not know Him, begins to relate to my God through me, because as His servant He has sent me to tell you about Him and about all the good things that He is going to give humans, let them stand on the side of truth and justice...

Suppose a time has passed in which you have heard me talk about my God... but now you already know Him, and now you know that everything I explained to you at the beginning when you did not know God was true. Now you have a more direct relationship with Him, you no longer need me to know Him, and to understand that He is the living and true God and there is no other...

Tell me, did the identity of God change simply because you denied Him at the beginning? What did change: He or your knowledge of Him?

What do you need to know God?
He left you a letter (the Bible) and sent His servants to call you... Will you listen to know Him?

Begging the question as a strategy to proselytise? Not very effective.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What I get out of it is an escape from the culture of theism: a ticket out of the Christian-speak, awful music, bigotry, the insincere "God-bless-yous", the thoughts & prayers, and bizarre, required dogma. It's not what I get from atheism; it's what I get out of escaping Christianity.

I'm not an atheist, but as a former Christian, I agree with what you've written in your post.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Most people don't question the status quo unless and until they are forced to. And then they aren't likely to be very good at it because they just want to be back in alignment with it.

That says almost all of it, doesn't it? You see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear.

 

[vulcanlogician]

Basically, I wouldn't be an atheist except it is a free pass to sin. The fact that science is reliable has nothing to do about it. Nor does my inclination to arrive at a true answer concerning the world based in reality, not fantasy or fiction, play any role in my electing to be an atheist. It's the fact that I want to sin.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Christians sin all the time... so there is no need for them to convert to atheism to do so. But I'm old school. I converted to atheism in order to sin. And, also, I wanted to rebel against God. Those were pretty much my only motivations in adopting atheism as a "belief system."

That, and I read much of the Bible and found it to be repugnant self-aggrandizing.

 

[PureX]

That says almost all of it, doesn't it? You see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear.

Not "you", "we". We all see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear. Usually until we're MADE to see and hear otherwise. And even then we will fight it.

It has always been in my nature to question the status quo. My mother used to tell stories about it. Yet I found myself being just as self-deceived as anyone when I fell into an addiction. To the point of losing a reasonable grasp of reality. And had this path not led to my being forced to face this in myself, I likely would not have faced it.

So I can easily see why so many of us never bother to question the status quo of our lives so long as it is serving us more or less, and may even reject and fight against doubting it even when that status quo is clearly out to destroy us. We are a collective, cooperative species. We are programmed to cede to the status quo. And we all do it to a greater or lesser degree. As we should. But we need to be aware if this in ourselves lest we follow that status quo into the abyss of selfishness and insanity. Because that CAN happen.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not "you", "we". We all see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear. Usually until we're MADE to see and hear otherwise. And even then we will fight it.

It has always been in my nature to question the status quo. My mother used to tell stories about it. Yet I found myself being just as self-deceived as anyone when I fell into an addiction. To the point of losing a reasonable grasp of reality. And had this path not led to my being forced to face this in myself, I likely would not have faced it.

So I can easily see why so many of us never bother to question the status quo of our lives so long as it is serving us more or less, and may even reject and fight against doubting it even when that status quo is clearly out to destroy us. We are a collective, cooperative species. We are programmed to cede to the status quo. And we all do it to a greater or lesser degree. As we should. But we need to be aware if this in ourselves lest we follow that status quo into the abyss of selfishness and insanity. Because that CAN happen.

But my philosophical outlook, born of my experiences as a child and the need to survive them, have allowed me -- even though I'm gay -- to live pretty much within the status quo. I've never been in jail, I've not fallen prey to any addictions, the world I'm most comfortable in is mosly straight, as I've no interested in hanging with a crowd that is held together ownly by sexual orientation.

Despite not getting past grade 11 (a consequence of being an orphan, emotionally disturbed through childhood abuse), I managed to become VP of Information Technology for a major international financial institution. I've been 30 years with the same man, even though he's been mostly incapacitated the last 6 or 7 years due to having contracted Guillaine-Barre Syndrome, AMAN variety, so that I am now also his support. I treat others with decency, and don't default on anyone.

I have ALWAYS questioned the status quo of my life, because I had to, so much so that it has become part of my nature. Why was I brutalized, why was I that hated thing, a homosexual (trust me, that was a big deal in a boys' boarding school)? Why did I prefer the arts and things of the mind, when every other boy I knew was besotted with sports? How was I going to make my way in the world with only a grade 11 education? I have thought my way through all of those conundrums, and if I may say so myself, I think I've not done too badly at it.

And I've accomplished all of that without the need for any sort of theist or deist belief (even though deist beliefs are generally so remotely concerned with human life they may be safely ignored, anyway).

Oh, and I'm neither selfish nor insane.

 

[Left Coast]

Let's say that my God is the true God, the living God, the Most High in heaven and earth, the Creator of everything... Let's say that I know Him, that He has shown me His power over everything and that I have no doubt that only He, He is God and no one can surpass Him in absolutely anything.

Suppose that you, another person completely alien to what I know and have experienced, alien to my God, and who does not know Him, begins to relate to my God through me, because as His servant He has sent me to tell you about Him and about all the good things that He is going to give humans, let them stand on the side of truth and justice...

If she's the Creator of the universe and all that, surely she doesn't need any "servants" to talk for her, right? So if she wants me to know her...I'm right here, lady! Come see me!

Why doesn't she?