What do you get from being atheist?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What something 'feels like' is not always what it actually is.

Sure, but I see absolutely no reason to second-guess my feeling, and no reason to prioritize your religion for a second look ahead of all the other things that set off my BS detector.

I do not know what MLM is.....

Multi-level marketing:

Multi-level marketing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Where would you look to for profound truths?

Depends on the type of truth in question. Maybe science, maybe philosophy, maybe just reflecting on a bike ride or a hike in the woods.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Saint Frankenstein

I said: God has a purpose for humanity but you won't find it in Christianity because Christians do not know what God's Purpose for humanity is.
It is hinted at in the Bible but Christians have misinterpreted the Bible so they are still waiting for something that is never going to happen.

I see you thought that was sad and now I can understand why.

God's Purpose for humanity is that we should all be saved, and we were saved by the teachings and cross sacrifice of Jesus, so that purpose was achieved.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
Some Answered Questions, p. 125

I was thinking along the lines of what God's purpose for humanity was after we were saved.

 

[Eddi]

Multi-level marketing.

Multi-level marketing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's pretty harsh to say that the religion in question resembles such a kind of scam that has been devised with the aim of depriving as many people as possible of as much money as possible

 

[Revoltingest]

I get all of that and I am a believer.

Lucky you!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's pretty harsh to say that the religion in question resembles such a kind of scam that has been devised with the aim of depriving as many people as possible of as much money as possible

Harsh but fair, IMO.

 

[Eddi]

Harsh but fair, IMO.

Personally I'm finished with organised religion although I don't take such a dim view of it as you obviously do

Could you please elaborate why that particular religion gives off MLM vibes to you?

I ask because I am trying to form an opinion of it

 

[Twilight Hue]

Let's say that my God is the true God, the living God, the Most High in heaven and earth, the Creator of everything... Let's say that I know Him, that He has shown me His power over everything and that I have no doubt that only He, He is God and no one can surpass Him in absolutely anything.

Suppose that you, another person completely alien to what I know and have experienced, alien to my God, and who does not know Him, begins to relate to my God through me, because as His servant He has sent me to tell you about Him and about all the good things that He is going to give humans, let them stand on the side of truth and justice...

Suppose a time has passed in which you have heard me talk about my God... but now you already know Him, and now you know that everything I explained to you at the beginning when you did not know God was true. Now you have a more direct relationship with Him, you no longer need me to know Him, and to understand that He is the living and true God and there is no other...

Tell me, did the identity of God change simply because you denied Him at the beginning? What did change: He or your knowledge of Him?

What do you need to know God?
He left you a letter (the Bible) and sent His servants to call you... Will you listen to know Him?

Um. At the end of the day it's just another person convincing another person about some God which that person is somehow believing in and was convinced themself, and just now trying to convince the second person the same thing without ever showing anything other than employing the art of convincing and some convincing looking book or letter written by someone else who was convinced and wrote stuff down where afterwards, did tromp and hop happily off to the church or temple of other convinced people, because they were convinced now of something that never was actually seen or heard whatsoever anywhere in the universe but they still convinced each other anyways because they felt easily convinced inside that it must be the case, because if a person convincingly feels it, it must be convincingly true, which in turn was convincingly good enough for them willy nilly to be convinced.

The end.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's pretty harsh to say that the religion in question resembles such a kind of scam that has been devised with the aim of depriving as many people as possible of as much money as possible

Especially since the Baha'i Faith does not solicit donations from its members or accept any donations from non-members even though non-members have wanted to donate money.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Especially since the Baha'i Faith does not solicit donations from its members or accept any donations from non-members even though non-member have wanted to donate money.

The thing that most gives me MLM vibes is more:

- the emphasis on recruitment of new members, and
- the lack of sincerity about the emphasis on recruitment.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God's Purpose for humanity is that we should all be saved, and we were saved by the teachings and cross sacrifice of Jesus, so that purpose was achieved.

If you really parse that, it seems absolutely bizarre. So some god created something, something that it thought important, for no other reason than to "save" it? From what? From that god's ineptitude in not being able to create something as perfect as itself? And having screwed that up, the only way to save it is to create something else that can be sacrificed? This is so internally convoluted as to be funny -- if so many people didn't take it seriously.

 

[Trailblazer]

The thing that most gives me MLM vibes is more:

- the emphasis on recruitment of new members, and
- the lack of sincerity about the emphasis on recruitment.

Where are you getting your information, from what you see a few Baha'is posting on this forum?

In Baha'i communities there is little emphasis on bringing in new members, and there is never any recruitment.
Since there is never any recruitment, there cannot be a lack of sincerity about the emphasis on recruitment.

What is the meaning of recruiting?

Recruitment is the process of actively seeking out, finding and hiring candidates for a specific position or job. The recruitment definition includes the entire hiring process, from inception to the individual recruit's integration into the company.

What is Recruitment? | Definition, Meaning, and Process - Sage​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Personally I'm finished with organised religion although I don't take such a dim view of it as you obviously do

Could you please elaborate why that particular religion gives off MLM vibes to you?

I ask because I am trying to form an opinion of it

It is mainly a "vibe" thing and not that well thought-out, but the big things:

- an emphasis on recruitment.

- not being open about their emphasis on recruitment.

- in-group terminology that seems partially shibboleth and partly obfuscation of what they're doing.

- using existing interpersonal relationships in a predatory way ("sell makeup/supplements/coffee/whatever to your friends and family!" vs. "tell your friends from the church you converted away from that your new religion is the fulfillment of theirs!"

 

[Eddi]

in-group terminology that seems partially shibboleth and partly obfuscation of what they're doing.

Could you please elaborate on this?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you really parse that, it seems absolutely bizarre. So some god created something, something that it thought important, for no other reason than to "save" it? From what? From that god's ineptitude in not being able to create something as perfect as itself?

Saved from ourselves, from our lower material nature.

God created us and we were good. But God gave everyone a material nature and a spiritual nature.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

To continue: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

We all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature or our material or lower nature. If we act according to our spiritual nature, showing forth love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, then we become more spiritual. If we act according to our material nature, showing forth untruth, cruelty and injustice, then we become more material.

All human behavior exists along a continuum, with the spiritual nature (good) at one end and the material nature (evil) at the other end. No human is purely good or purely evil, but we can gravitate towards one or the other.

If God had created us perfect there would be no purpose to having to go through this life, since the purpose of this life is to acquire perfections.

And having screwed that up, the only way to save it is to create something else that can be sacrificed? This is so internally convoluted as to be funny -- if so many people didn't take it seriously.

What we were saved by was the teachings of Jesus, since they help us live according to our spiritual nature.

Baha'is do not believe in substitutionary atonement since we don't believe in original sin. In other words, we do not believe that the cross sacrifice cleared the slate, wiping away all our sins.

The cross sacrifice was symbolic of self-denial, freeing us from attachment to the material world, which is sin, compared to attraction to the spiritual world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Where are you getting your information, from what you see a few Baha'is posting on this forum?

Yes. I said that at the beginning.

In Baha'i communities there is little emphasis on bringing in new members, and there is never any recruitment.
Since there is never any recruitment, there cannot be a lack of sincerity about the emphasis on recruitment.

I'm in a bit of a dilemma here: if official Baha'i estimates of the size of the religion are accurate, then it's grown too quickly for what you say to be true.

OTOH, I don't consider official Baha'i sources to be that reliable, and other sources give much lower estimates for the total number of Baha'is worldwide.

... so who should I consider untrustworthy: you or the official spokespeople of your religion? Is your religion one that lies about recruitment or one that lies about its growth?

What is the meaning of recruiting?

Recruitment is the process of actively seeking out, finding and hiring candidates for a specific position or job. The recruitment definition includes the entire hiring process, from inception to the individual recruit's integration into the company.

What is Recruitment? | Definition, Meaning, and Process - Sage​

See... this is one of the tactics that sets off my scam detector. Trying to keep tight control over language and the definitions of words is a common trait among dangerous groups.

When you try to control how I use language, I'll think you're trying to manipulate me. Whether this is your personal thing or a tactic of your religion is something that will be for me to try to judge.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Could you please elaborate on this?

Two examples:

- the way that Baha'is will get very angry at you if you call their proselytizing "proselytizing" and not "pioneering." I've found that they'll insist on redefining the word "proselytizing" so that what they do falls outside the definitions.

- in this thread, the way that @Trailblazer just tried to insist on a very constrained definition of "recruitment" a few posts ago.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm in a bit of a dilemma here: if official Baha'i estimates of the size of the religion are accurate, then it's grown too quickly for what you say to be true.

OTOH, I don't consider official Baha'i sources to be that reliable, and other sources give much lower estimates for the total number of Baha'is worldwide.

... so who should I consider untrustworthy: you or the official spokespeople of your religion? Is your religion one that lies about recruitment or one that lies about its growth?

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Statistics from: Growth of religion

The growth rates of the Baha’i Faith were higher than Islam from 1910 to 2010 because it includes the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has not always been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944).

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century.

See... this is one of the tactics that sets off my scam detector. Trying to keep tight control over language and the definitions of words is a common trait among dangerous groups.

When you try to control how I use language, I'll think you're trying to manipulate me. Whether this is your personal thing or a tactic of your religion is something that will be for me to try to judge.

Recruitment would be the process of actively seeking out and finding people to join the Baha'i Faith. That goes against all the official policies of the Baha'i administration on how the religion should grow.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

This illustrates my point. Christianity and Islam both proselytize aggressively. If a religion were to grow even faster than them, I would expect that they're also proselytizing aggressively.

Recruitment would be the process of actively seeking out and finding people to join the Baha'i Faith. That goes against all the official policies of the Baha'i administration on how the religion should grow.

It would violate no belief that I hold if I were to learn that the leadership of the Baha'i faith were hypocrites that break their own rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

This illustrates my point. Christianity and Islam both proselytize aggressively. If a religion were to grow even faster than them, I would expect that they're also proselytizing aggressively.

That does not logically follow since you cannot assume that rapid growth was the result of proselytizing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That does not logically follow since you cannot assume that rapid growth was the result of proselytizing.

Yes, I can. It's a reasonable assumption.

Edit: and I don't think you understand the effect your arguments have on me. Please keep in mind what I said before about my impression:

- an emphasis on recruitment.

- not being open about their emphasis on recruitment.

When you deny that your religion proselytizes, you don't undermine the first point; you reinforce the second point... for me, anyhow.