What do you get from being atheist?

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I can. It's a reasonable assumption.

You can assume anything you want to assume, but that doesn't make it true.

Edit: and I don't think you understand the effect your arguments have on me. Please keep in mind what I said before about my impression:

- an emphasis on recruitment.

- not being open about their emphasis on recruitment.

When you deny that your religion proselytizes, you don't undermine the first point; you reinforce the second point... for me, anyhow.

I am only telling you what the official Baha'i position is. I cannot help the effect it has on you.

Teaching vs. Proselytizing

[308.3] It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing. It is a significant difference and, in some countries where teaching a religion is permitted, but proselytizing is forbidden, the distinction is made in the law of the land. Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization.

[308.4] Bahá'u'lláh, in The Hidden Words, says, "O Son of Dust! The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved .... ", and on page 55 of The Advent of Divine Justice, a letter which is primarily directed towards exhorting the friends to fulfill their responsibilities in teaching the Faith, Shoghi Effendi writes: "Care, however, should, at all times, be exercised, lest in their eagerness to further the international interests of the Faith they frustrate their purpose, and turn away, through any act that might be misconstrued as an attempt to proselytize and bring undue pressure upon them, those whom they wish to win over to their Cause." Some Bahá'ís sometimes overstep the proper bounds, but this does not alter the clear principle.

[308.5] The responsibility of the Bahá'ís to teach the Faith is very great. The contraction of the world and the onward rush of events require us to seize every chance open to us to touch the hearts and minds of our fellowmen. The Message of Bahá'u'lláh is God's guidance for mankind to overcome the difficulties of this age of transition and move forward into the next stage of its evolution, and human beings have the right to hear it. Those who accept it incur the duty of passing it on to their fellowman. The slowness of the response of the world has caused and is causing great suffering; hence the historical pressure upon Bahá'ís to exert every effort to teach the Faith for the sake of their fellowmen. They should teach with enthusiasm, conviction, wisdom and courtesy, but without pressing their hearer, bearing in mind the words of Bahá'u'lláh: "Beware lest ye contend with any one, nay, strive to make him aware of the truth with kindly manner and most convincing exhortation. If your hearer respond, he will have responded to his own behoof, and if not, turn ye away from him, and set your faces towards God's sacred Court, the seat of resplendent holiness." (Gleanings CXXVIII)

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am only telling you what the official Baha'i position is. I cannot help the effect it has on you.

Teaching vs. Proselytizing

Did you forget what I just told you?

When you try to control how I use language, I'll think you're trying to manipulate me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did you forget what I just told you?

When you try to control how I use language, I'll think you're trying to manipulate me.

You can use whatever language you want to and I will use the language that Baha'is use.
I cannot control what you think nor do I want to.

Did you forget what I just told you?
I am only telling you what the official Baha'i position is. I cannot help the effect it has on you.

 

[RestlessSoul]

As someone whose religion is very much grounded in experience and constant questioning and learning, I think this is unfair. Humans derive different meaning from their life experiences. Differences in conclusions may have nothing to do with arrogance or pride, fear or prejudice, much less any active denial of anything. It can involve those things, but not by necessity or nature. I would not call a polytheist, monotheist, or atheist prideful or arrogant because their experiences of the sacred led them to different conclusions about it. I would call them followers of their own nature and being in accord with who they are - or at least I hope they are.

You have great generosity of spirit my friend.

 

[RestlessSoul]

From what I understand, God does not hide/veil himself from creation, except their acts are for other than him. Your direction is other than God. Had your direction, journey, and aim been God, you would have seen him clearly in your soul and beyond in the horizons and sky connected to this world. More over, you would have seen the guides and lanterns appointed to guide you and be your companions in the journey to God.

The problem atheists are in a far place, and even if God is proven in a logical manner, they are in a state of rebellion and hate towards the truth.

But while my mind is Muslim and a believer in God, my heart is a hedonistic polytheist (low desires and bad people as gods). It's as if I don't believe in God.

Sometimes the guilt is overwhelming that I wish that it was all not true what my mind knows to be true. But I won't take my mind to the grave, but rather my heart and soul will be there, and I'm not better than any atheist but worse in terms of the evil situation and distance I am in.

I've been in the past on the path towards God and remember the place of proximity to God and his guides. It's been a long time since I been there.

Sometimes when I think of friends and colleagues going to hell and people who are good to me, going there, I wish hell was not true. But my wish for hell not being true won't change reality.

The biggest problem in the world, is that believers are full out hypocrites - double faced - and hardly acting on their knowledge. They talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

I deserve hell. It's hard to admit. But it's true. If God saves my soul and frees me from my evil ways, it won't be out of anything I earned from honor nor merit, but purely out of his mercy and grace. It's up to him.

You’re not going to hell, brother. It’s my belief none of us are, for we do our suffering here on earth.

 

[RestlessSoul]

And you're doing it again, as if you can't help yourself! What prevents me from having the experience of having my arm broken? Not breaking my arm is what! And not having whatever "experience" you have had is because I didn't have it, not that I denied it to myself.

And often enough, since you were willing to push the matter into my face again, there are a whole lot of "experiences" that people think they have that are in fact 100% fantasy. There are quite a few mechanisms by which the brain can generate "experience" that never happened, which you can find by doing a little browsing into neuroscience. The generation of false experiences by the brain is a complex phenomenon that has been studied in that field. Above all, you have to understand that the brain is not a perfect recorder of events; instead, it actively constructs perceptions based on sensory input, memories, and internal cognitive processes. Here are some key factors and phenomena related to the generation of false experiences:

1. Perception and Interpretation:
   • Sensory Input: The brain relies on sensory information to construct its perception of the world. However, sensory input can be ambiguous or incomplete, leading to perceptual errors.
   • Top-Down Processing: The brain often uses prior knowledge, expectations, and context to interpret incoming sensory information. This can sometimes result in the misinterpretation of stimuli.
2. Memory and Reconstruction:
   • Memory Distortions: Memories are not perfect records of past events. They can be influenced by various factors, such as emotions, post-event information, and cognitive biases, leading to the creation of false memories.
   • Reconstruction: When recalling memories, the brain reconstructs the events based on stored fragments of information. This process is susceptible to errors and alterations.
3. Cognitive Biases:
   • Confirmation Bias: The tendency to interpret new information in a way that confirms preexisting beliefs or expectations, potentially leading to false conclusions.
   • Expectation Bias: The brain may generate experiences that align with expectations, even if the actual sensory input is different.
4. Hallucinations:
   • Sensory Hallucinations: The brain can generate false sensory perceptions in the absence of external stimuli. Conditions such as schizophrenia or certain drug-induced states can contribute to hallucinations.
5. Dreams and Imagination:
   • Dreaming: During sleep, the brain can generate vivid and immersive experiences that may feel real, even though they are entirely generated internally.
   • Imagination: The brain has the ability to create mental simulations and scenarios, blurring the line between imagined and real experiences.
6. Neurological Conditions:
   • Certain neurological conditions, such as epilepsy or migraine auras, can lead to altered perceptions and experiences. These conditions may involve abnormal neural activity that can generate false sensations. Other such conditions include agnosognosia, schizophrenia

Understanding how the brain generates false experiences is crucial for researchers studying perception, memory, and cognition. It also has implications for fields such as psychology, where the study of false memories and cognitive biases can provide insights into human behavior. Try reading "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" by Doctor Oliver Sachs. And if you come back and say "well, maybe his wife did turn into a hat," I'll know you are a sandwich or two short of a picnic.

You've gone to a lot of intellectual effort to deny the possibility of an encounter with the infinite and the divine. For myself I found it so much easier, in the end, to move toward a God of my understanding, than to keep running away. But what I find most telling, is that when I suggest anyone can form a connection with a Power greater than themselves, the response of many atheists is one of belligerent denial. Why is that, do you suppose?

 

[PureX]

Here's the thing, though: we can steal good ideas from anywhere.

As a non-adherent of a religion, I can still cherry-pick all the demonstrably good and true parts of it and use them myself. The only things that the adherents get from their religion that I can't is the stuff that isn't demonstrably good or true.

If there's an effect of religion that's positive, I can have it, too.

As always, you are unable to differentiate between religion and theism. Religions are a collection of cognitive tools intended for their adherents to use to live life according to their specific theistic preference. And anyone can use at least some of those tools, like confession, ritual, and a list of ethical ideals. But many of those tools are designed to practice faith in a benevolent power greater than ourselves, and most atheists do not accept that such a power exists. Or that faith is a viable, logical course of cognitive action. So no, most atheists cannot take and use any of the tools of religion, because they are not theists. They could define that power greater than themselves in such a way as to allow faith to be possible, but very, very few would, or do.

Especially when most self-proclaimed atheists are really more anti-religious than they are reasoned atheists. So it's extremely unlikely that any of them are going to borrow any ideas from any religion given that they are so intently opposed to any and all forms of religion.

 

[PureX]

But my philosophical outlook, born of my experiences as a child and the need to survive them, have allowed me -- even though I'm gay -- to live pretty much within the status quo. I've never been in jail, I've not fallen prey to any addictions, the world I'm most comfortable in is mosly straight, as I've no interested in hanging with a crowd that is held together ownly by sexual orientation.

Despite not getting past grade 11 (a consequence of being an orphan, emotionally disturbed through childhood abuse), I managed to become VP of Information Technology for a major international financial institution. I've been 30 years with the same man, even though he's been mostly incapacitated the last 6 or 7 years due to having contracted Guillaine-Barre Syndrome, AMAN variety, so that I am now also his support. I treat others with decency, and don't default on anyone.

I have ALWAYS questioned the status quo of my life, because I had to, so much so that it has become part of my nature. Why was I brutalized, why was I that hated thing, a homosexual (trust me, that was a big deal in a boys' boarding school)? Why did I prefer the arts and things of the mind, when every other boy I knew was besotted with sports? How was I going to make my way in the world with only a grade 11 education? I have thought my way through all of those conundrums, and if I may say so myself, I think I've not done too badly at it.

And I've accomplished all of that without the need for any sort of theist or deist belief (even though deist beliefs are generally so remotely concerned with human life they may be safely ignored, anyway).

Oh, and I'm neither selfish nor insane.

Do you think all this is somehow supposed to apply to everyone else? That because you chose no help from God that everyone else can do the same, and should? Do you think you're superior to them because of it? Could it be that you received help from God without asking and without knowing it?

The thing I can't understand about atheists is why they think everyone else should also be atheist. And why they think they are superior for it. Why they come here to tell theists how wrong and stupid they are.

 

[McBell]

The thing I can't understand about atheists is why they think everyone else should also be atheist.

I don't.
In fact, outside of RF it rarely comes up.
Though I do have to contend with the group down the block who for some reason think that if I do not believe exactly as they believe that I will be in hell for all eternity
But they are Christians, not atheists.

And why they think they are superior for it.

I strongly suspect that if you take a long deep look inside yourself and figure out why you think you are superior, that the same reasoning likely applies to pretty much everyone else.

Why they come here to tell theists how wrong and stupid they are.

Why do you continuously attack atheists?
Think perhaps there is a correlation?

 

[Mock Turtle]

So you lose all those possible positive effects, and you gain nothing at all.

Seems like a foolish choice, especially when it's based on nothing but a dislike of religion.

So ya'll trapped yourself in your own unbreakable bias simply because you don't know how to let go of it. That you can let go of it by simply recognizing it for what It is: a baseless, biased, opinion that you blindly mistook for the truth.

Where oh where is the ironic frube!

 

[PureX]

I don't.
In fact, outside of RF it rarely comes up.
Though I do have to contend with the group down the block who for some reason think that if I do not believe exactly as they believe that I will be in hell for all eternity
But they are Christians, not atheists.

I strongly suspect that if you take a long deep look inside yourself and figure out why you think you are superior, that the same reasoning likely applies to pretty much everyone else.

Why do you continuously attack atheists?
Think perhaps there is a correlation?

I never "attack atheists". Nor do I promote theism, nor do I think theism is superior to atheism.

 

[PureX]

Where oh where is the ironic frube!

They won't let you have it until you learn how and when irony actually occurs.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The problem atheists are in a far place, and even if God is proven in a logical manner, they are in a state of rebellion and hate towards the truth.

Well I wouldn't want the truth that the YEC believers and the Taliban seem to have.

 

[Mock Turtle]

They won't let you have it until you learn how and when irony actually occurs.

Like when you seem to think others should just agree with your views?

 

[PureX]

Like when you seem to think others should just agree with your views?

Good example, as that is not irony.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Could it be that you received help from God without asking and without knowing it?

So we've devolved to "could it be" now. Well, I suppose I could have got help from The Great Pumpkin himself, or maybe my fairy godmother. If we're going to go that route, then it could be zillions of things -- or nothing. Not helpful from a philosophical point of view.

In any case, I did, of course, get help. Help from ordinary human beings with good hearts and more sense than I had early on. And for that I have always been, and will always be, grateful. The only trick with that kind of help is knowing it's being offered and accepting it -- and it did. I do not recall having been offered any heavenly assistance.

 

[PureX]

So we've devolved to "could it be" now. Well, I suppose I could have got help from The Great Pumpkin himself, or maybe my fairy godmother. If we're going to go that route, then it could be zillions of things -- or nothing. Not helpful from a philosophical point of view.

So asking "could it be" is devolution to you? I guess that leaves science, philosophy, and art out of the evolutionary picture.

In any case, I did, of course, get help. Help from ordinary human beings with good hearts and more sense than I had early on.

A lot of theists would say that IS God dwelling within us. Even many Christians.

And for that I have always been, and will always be, grateful. The only trick with that kind of help is knowing it's being offered and accepting it -- and it did. I do not recall having been offered any heavenly assistance.

What good is "heavenly assistance" while we're here on Earth? I'm not sure what "heavenly assistance" would even look like. Miracles? Magic tricks? Life can be inexplicable, and even somewhat magical, but rarely upon request.

 

[F1fan]

You’re not going to hell, brother. It’s my belief none of us are, for we do our suffering here on earth.

That's the thing about religious belief, there is no consistency and no factual basis for any of it, so believe whtever you want for whatever personal reason. Whatever the reason it's not knowledge, and isn't useful as a tool for understanding. What you believe is no more true than any other religion and what they claim as truth. It's just that atheists have no need to develop and hold any of these beliefs for the sake of identity or meaning as theists do.

You've gone to a lot of intellectual effort to deny the possibility of an encounter with the infinite and the divine.

Who cares what you think is possible? And there is no meaning by the words "infinite" and "divine" that isn't created in your own mind. So it is a matter of theists like yourself creating or adopting non-factual ideas, assigning them meaning, and then creating synthetic experiences. Many non-theists prefer more authentic and natural experiences.

For myself I found it so much easier, in the end, to move toward a God of my understanding, than to keep running away.

Who told you a God exists, and why did you believe them?

But what I find most telling, is that when I suggest anyone can form a connection with a Power greater than themselves, the response of many atheists is one of belligerent denial. Why is that, do you suppose?

Why would rational thinkers assume something that has no basis in fact to be real? That is what you don't get. Atheists are not interested in pretending some God exists for some assumed purpose.

 

[Quintessence]

You have great generosity of spirit my friend.

I try to be, but then posts like #51 from @Evangelicalhumanist make that approach unfortunately difficult and cause me to question it regularly.

I'm sorry, Ev, but there's a distinction to be made between having an experience - all experiences actually happened to the person they happened to unless they're outright lying to you - and how one interprets those experiences or goes about explaining them away or finding meaning in them. But then there are the subset of "atheists" who are happy to paint me as a liar when I tell them about an experience because they would prefer to dismiss as "100% fantasy" instead of something I... you know... actually experienced? Having had this happen on a routine basis makes it a lot more dfificult to avoid seeing "atheists" as precisely what RestlessSoul described earlier - prideful, hubristic creatures full of prejudice against anything that doesn't conform to their way of seeing the world. Who are you to tell others how to understand what happened to them and gaslight them into believing it didn't happen? It's gross.

 

[F1fan]

As always, you are unable to differentiate between religion and theism. Religions are a collection of cognitive tools intended for their adherents to use to live life according to their specific theistic preference. And anyone can use at least some of those tools, like confession, ritual, and a list of ethical ideals. But many of those tools are designed to practice faith in a benevolent power greater than ourselves, and most atheists do not accept that such a power exists.

Let's note that a "higher power" is not factual, and atheists don't accept the popular social idea. Atheists, and even some believers, don't have any use for what "higher power" means.

Or that faith is a viable, logical course of cognitive action.

Faith is the antithesis of logical. At the core it is an emotional decision making that can be highly flawed.

So no, most atheists cannot take and use any of the tools of religion, because they are not theists.

No, atheists are atheists because they apply reason to religious ideas, and don't assign meaning to these ideas that are proliferated through social experience and pressure to conform. No one comes to a reasoned conclusion that religious ideas are true.

They could define that power greater than themselves in such a way as to allow faith to be possible, but very, very few would, or do.

What atheists wants that mental theater?

Especially when most self-proclaimed atheists are really more anti-religious than they are reasoned atheists.

A claim, but no evidence. Let's note that atheists have the right to be critical of any social movement including religion. Religion isn't exempt just because it has belief about some god. Again you show your biased and disdain for atheists, and you fail to articulate what is wrong about what you detest. It tells us more about your than anything atheists are doing wrong.

So it's extremely unlikely that any of them are going to borrow any ideas from any religion given that they are so intently opposed to any and all forms of religion.

That's a bad indictment of religion, and how useless its ideas are for practical uses, and for reason.

Do you think all this is somehow supposed to apply to everyone else? That because you chose no help from God that everyone else can do the same, and should? Do you think you're superior to them because of it? Could it be that you received help from God without asking and without knowing it?

No atheists would be so arrogant as to think they got help from a God while so many kids are dying from diseases in hospitals that God has turned his back on. So you see, atheists just aren't as self-absored and selfish as the theists you recognize. Atheists are vastly more self-reliant, and save cognitive activity for problem solving rather than prayers that don't work. Heck, even churches and charities ask for money, and that's because God is not coming through to solve their needs.

The thing I can't understand about atheists is why they think everyone else should also be atheist.

What atheists has said this? Just because we have a position of a popular social behavior that's on par with belief in Santa Claus does not mean we think belief should be abanded. Krishnamurti often criticized blind belief because the person has no freedom over that behavior. He advocated for people to detach from the dependency on belief, and to understand why the self needs to believe in non-factual ideas for the sake of identity. Only then does the self have freedom and authority over their own mind.

And why they think they are superior for it. Why they come here to tell theists how wrong and stupid they are.

Another statement by you that indicates inecurity and arrogance. Could it be that you recognize that atheists use reason, and don;t make assumptions about religious ideas, and this is a more logical position? Of course you don't, your pride is too strong, and your position ironic. You, and other theists, should slow down and think through what you believe and post to avoid looking ....... well, you said it.