What do you get from being atheist?

[F1fan]

I strongly disagree on grounds that not believing in a God deprives a person and society of the life giving waters of the teachings of God for any particular age. Take this age for instance.

It's interesting that those who have learned reasoning skills won't be as gullible to accept religious lore through social pressure. I'm sure you are aware of the criticisms against your religious belief and how it lacks any factual basis, thus not credible to be taught at face value. I suggest teach people how to think critically, and let religions slowly fade away.

We live at a time of deep division and disunity between the races, religions and nations even to the point of wars. Yet the latest Messenger of God came with a whole new paradigm of how to live in unity and harmony.

Let's dump religions and unify. You have been asked about rjecting your religion for the sake of unity and won't answer. That's suspicious, and why religion can't be trusted.

Those who have believed in this Messenger - Baha’u’llah and have put into practice His teachings have founded a world community comprised of those conflicting races, religions and nations yet living in perfect peace and harmony without wars or conflict. Yet the stubbornness of a society thinking it needs not God’s counsels and advice, finds itself on the brink of a third word disaster.

Some don't want to be bigots, I guess. Or celebate. Bad selling points.

By following the counsels of Baha’u’llah we are united but those who have ignored them find themselves embroiled in wars and conflicts they cannot extricate themselves from. So those who think that there is ‘nothing gained’ by following Baha’u’llah, I reply by pointing out you need to do an honest comparison between your world and the Baha’i world in order to clearly see what you are missing out on and it’s a hell of a lot.

Too much mental theater. Who needs it?

 

[Soandso]

In Christianity, which I am a part of, we don't see much intervention by God.

Really? There was the whole flood thing that wiped out almost all life on the planet. That's kind of a big one. Then there was god sending Jesus to die on the cross to save all men who lived, were living, or who would yet live from god's destined punishment via the original sin. For smaller interventions there was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah via a rain of fire, the plagues of Egypt, the fall of Jericho's walls, etc.Then there was all the personal times god intervened like Paul's road to Damascus experience or when God has Abraham sacrifice then stops him from sacrificing his own son

 

[PureX]

Yep, some atheists do circle back around to theism or non-theistic religions after they work through their religious trauma, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I consider Taoism to be a religion for myself. But I still don't believe in gods, personally. And not just the Christian idea of a God, specifically.

I trust in the value of the idea of "God". But I am profoundly agnostic in that I have no idea if or how any God would exist beyond the ideal. I greatly appreciate Taoism as an active philosophy because it requires no stance one way or another regarding any gods. I also appreciate Christianity as a philosophical ideal that promotes love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity. But I avoid the religion that's associated with it.

 

[PureX]

What exactly are the gifts of atheism? And when do mine arrive?

Very good question. Mostly, it appears that all you get is to express your resentment of religion ... endlessly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Those who have believed in this Messenger - Baha’u’llah and have put into practice His teachings have founded a world community comprised of those conflicting races, religions and nations yet living in perfect peace and harmony without wars or conflict. Yet the stubbornness of a society thinking it needs not God’s counsels and advice, finds itself on the brink of a third word disaster.

When you understand that, to anyone who isn't a Baha’i, Baha'u'llah's writings aren't "God's counsels and advice," but are actually just "the counsels and advice of some guy who claimed to speak for God," you'll understand why we don't find them that compelling.

 

[ppp]

Very good question. Mostly, it appears that all you get is to express your resentment of religion ... endlessly.

Cool. I look forward to it. Cause all I have gotten so far is the sullen and willing misrepresentation of people like you. Endlessly.

 

[Trailblazer]

I trust in the value of the idea of "God". But I am profoundly agnostic in that I have no idea if or how any God would exist beyond the ideal. I greatly appreciate Taoism as an active philosophy because it requires no stance one way or another regarding any gods. I also appreciate Christianity as a philosophical ideal that promotes love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity. But I avoid the religion that's associated with it.

For me, God is more than an idea, as I have faith and trust in a real God that I believe exists, although I have no idea what God is or how God exists.

 

[viole]

Let me try an example or two: if I don't have any theistic belief, I have my Sundays (or Fridays, or Saturdays or longer periods of religious observance) free. If I don't have any theistic belief, I am free to do anything I like (including murder and rape!).

If true, then theists are serial killers in a closet. which is obviously absurd.

but if they relly believe that they will be free to murder and rape, if they lose their faith tomorrow, then they should keep believing whatever they believe, by all means.

But here it is: there is nothing to be gained, nothing of value, nothing to provide comfort or guidance, in not believing in deities. We don't get anything from it. It doesn't comfort us, or frighten us. It demands nothing of us. It does not inform our morals any more than it informs our food preferences.

This seems to advertise for belief (in whatever), and not necessarily for the object of the belief (an actual deity) as it is often the case, since they are frequently equivocated.

however, that is also absurd. Metaphysical, or more generally philosophical positions should be immune from personal wishful thinking, if they do not want to become self defeating.

actually, it is in general wiser, to be 10 times more skeptical when we read something like a comforting good news. Hope springs eternal, and that hope alone makes more then 50% of the acceptance of the belief without any rational scrutiny.

ciao

- viole

 

[PureX]

The "Sundays off" thing is a benefit of being anti-religious. Not a benefit of being an atheist.

The freedom from religious abuse is likewise a benefit of being anti-religious, not of being an atheist.

The smug presumption that you are so much smarter than all those superstitious religious fools is likewise a benefit of being anti-religious, not of being atheist.

I point this out because there are a great many theists in the world that enjoy these sae benefits simply by being anti-religious theists. And on top of that they receive the benefits of having faith in a God of their own choosing, as well.

So I really see no benefit be gained, at all, from being an atheist. Even the false sense of intellectual superiority that most atheists hold so dear can be found and maintained just as easily as a theist.

 

[McBell]

The "Sundays off" thing is a benefit of being anti-religious. Not a benefit of being an atheist.

The freedom from religious abuse is likewise a benefit of being anti-religious, not of being an atheist.

The smug presumption that you are so much smarter than all those superstitious religious fools is likewise a benefit of being anti-religious, not of being atheist.

I point this out because there are a great many theists in the world that enjoy these sae benefits simply by being anti-religious theists. And on top of that they receive the benefits of having faith in a God of their own choosing, as well.

So I really see no benefit be gained, at all, from being an atheist. Even the false sense of intellectual superiority that most atheists hold so dear can be found and maintained just as easily as a theist.

I only speak for myself and no one else.
But I for one find your constant rants and weak half arse jabs at atheism most comical and entertaining.

Keep up the good work.

 

[danieldemol]

So those who think that there is ‘nothing gained’ by following Baha’u’llah, I reply by pointing out you need to do an honest comparison between your world and the Baha’i world in order to clearly see what you are missing out on and it’s a hell of a lot.

But an honest comparison would have to acknowledge that the wider world is made of those who disagree militantly, and that since Baha'i are mostly agreed on dogma with the exception of those alleged to be covenant breakers, it simply does not have the experience in managing violent disagreement to be comparable to the wider world community which does have to manage violent disagreement in my view. So a fair comparison can't be made.

Let's be honest, a fairer comparison to Baha'i would be Jehovah's Witnesses who also manage a community from numerous walks of life without conflict and who in my view - like the Baha'i faith - have teachings that are partially untrue and expected to be adopted wholly.

 

[danieldemol]

@loverofhumanity how do you expect the Baha'i to deal with someone like Putin without conflict?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I saw this question (or one very like it) over the last few days. I can't remember in which thread, or who asked the question, and it doesn't matter. But it does bring up something that I think is really important to the endless arguments between theists and atheists. (I'm not picking any particular theism, no individual religion.)

The reason the question is interesting is because it seems to make a deep assumption, but one that doesn't really seem appropriate -- and that deep assumption is that there is "something useful, something good, something valuable or precious" in holding a belief (or beliefs) about deities, and that the same must hold true about NOT holding such beliefs.

Let me try an example or two: if I don't have any theistic belief, I have my Sundays (or Fridays, or Saturdays or longer periods of religious observance) free. If I don't have any theistic belief, I am free to do anything I like (including murder and rape!).

This is analogically false!

I understand that having a belief in a loving deity, or a saviour, or an afterlife in a heaven or Valhalla can feel comforting and precious. I can see how having a set of rules (positive and negative) can feel as if difficult questions have been pre-decided or answered for you. I can even see how those rules might help you feel more comfortable rejecting -- or even mistreating -- those who aren't like you in those rules.

But here it is: there is nothing to be gained, nothing of value, nothing to provide comfort or guidance, in not believing in deities. We don't get anything from it. It doesn't comfort us, or frighten us. It demands nothing of us. It does not inform our morals any more than it informs our food preferences.

Which brings us the question that theists will immediately ask: "so why disbelieve, why not believe in a deity and gain all the benefits I feel I get?"

And the answer is perfectly simple: because we cannot change our belief on the basis of hoped-for benefits -- any more than theists can change their beliefs on the basis of a desire to be free of all those commandments and rules. To pretend to accept the idea of a deity gives us nothing, because it is pretense. The only thing that can change a deeply-held belief is convincing evidence to refute that which informs those beliefs. And therein lies a deep, deep blockage -- "convincing" is totally subjective: what convinces me isn't necessarily what convinces you.

Theists who ask such a question imo kind of reveal how their justification for being theist is irrational.


It seems to imply they believe because it "benefits" them somehow one way or the other.
How a belief makes me feel is of no consequence.

If disbelieving in deities made me miserable, I'ld still disbelieve in deities... "not feeling miserable" is not a proper rational justification for believing something.


An example I like in that context is having terminal cancer. Getting that diagnose sure would make me feel miserable.
I'ld be happier if I would believe to be cancer free. But the facts are what they are. Why would I not believe the evidence, simply because I don't like it?

 

[flowerpower]

I saw this question (or one very like it) over the last few days. I can't remember in which thread, or who asked the question, and it doesn't matter. But it does bring up something that I think is really important to the endless arguments between theists and atheists. (I'm not picking any particular theism, no individual religion.)

The reason the question is interesting is because it seems to make a deep assumption, but one that doesn't really seem appropriate -- and that deep assumption is that there is "something useful, something good, something valuable or precious" in holding a belief (or beliefs) about deities, and that the same must hold true about NOT holding such beliefs.

Let me try an example or two: if I don't have any theistic belief, I have my Sundays (or Fridays, or Saturdays or longer periods of religious observance) free. If I don't have any theistic belief, I am free to do anything I like (including murder and rape!).

This is analogically false!

I understand that having a belief in a loving deity, or a saviour, or an afterlife in a heaven or Valhalla can feel comforting and precious. I can see how having a set of rules (positive and negative) can feel as if difficult questions have been pre-decided or answered for you. I can even see how those rules might help you feel more comfortable rejecting -- or even mistreating -- those who aren't like you in those rules.

But here it is: there is nothing to be gained, nothing of value, nothing to provide comfort or guidance, in not believing in deities. We don't get anything from it. It doesn't comfort us, or frighten us. It demands nothing of us. It does not inform our morals any more than it informs our food preferences.

Which brings us the question that theists will immediately ask: "so why disbelieve, why not believe in a deity and gain all the benefits I feel I get?"

And the answer is perfectly simple: because we cannot change our belief on the basis of hoped-for benefits -- any more than theists can change their beliefs on the basis of a desire to be free of all those commandments and rules. To pretend to accept the idea of a deity gives us nothing, because it is pretense. The only thing that can change a deeply-held belief is convincing evidence to refute that which informs those beliefs. And therein lies a deep, deep blockage -- "convincing" is totally subjective: what convinces me isn't necessarily what convinces you.

I used to be an intense atheist due to extreme teenage angst and resentment that I went through. Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens were very much in vogue when I was a teenager so I naturally latched on to their intellects and got off on feeling like the smartest person in the world.

I kind of grew out of it as a phase pretty quickly though when I decided to lighten up and enjoy life in my early 20s.

I do remember that my edgy atheist phase basically provided a massive spiritual vacuum that left me with a lot of deep contemplation of advanced philosophy while I tried to figure things out. After a while, I kind of lost interest as my personal values kind of shifted and collapsed.

Part of the reason why I'm here is to revive that once enthusiastic philosophical side of me in a more optimistic light.

Atheism and nihilism are serious business for a lot of people when they're sincere about it - both are inherently based upon the absence of something philosophical in nature so it provides a baseline for creating your own meaning (which I understand to be humanist or existentialist if I'm not mistaken).

I say serious business because, once the threshold of nihilism is crossed, it's very hard to see the perceive reality the same way that you did previously. I've known philosophy majors who developed very serious psychological problems for engaging in the discipline and taking it seriously. People can often lose their minds when they indulge atheism/nihilism because it leaves them with a sense of emptiness or purposelessness - symptoms of very serious mental illnesses and disorders and a propensity to enjoy - fleetingly - a kind of impulsive hedonism that can lead to very regrettable consequences.

I guess you could call me a recovering atheist/nihilist - I'm very very far from out of the woods yet.

 

[PureX]

I only speak for myself and no one else.
But I for one find your constant rants and weak half arse jabs at atheism most comical and entertaining.

Keep up the good work.

Of course. That way you’re sure to learn nothing. Because as a ‘critical thinker’, you’re never going to be critical of your own thinking.

 

[ChristineM]

I have just thought of another bonus, 10% and choice.

I believe 10% of income is the typical tithe that both Christian and Muslims (I don't know about other religions) should be given back to their god through the church.

Ok more that that goes to charity anyway but it's my choice where the money goes.

 

[PureX]

I have just thought of another bonus, 10% and choice.

I believe 10% of income is the typical tithe that both Christian and Muslims (I don't know about other religions) should be given back to their god through the church.

Ok more that that goes to charity anyway but it's my choice where the money goes.

Again, not a benefit of atheism, but of anti-religiosity. Plenty of non-religious theist have the same freedom. And to be clear, religions can't force anyone to give them money, either. Though some will surely try.

 

[Soandso]

I used to be an intense atheist due to extreme teenage angst and resentment that I went through. Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens were very much in vogue when I was a teenager so I naturally latched on to their intellects and got off on feeling like the smartest person in the world.

I kind of grew out of it as a phase pretty quickly though when I decided to lighten up and enjoy life in my early 20s.

I do remember that my edgy atheist phase basically provided a massive spiritual vacuum that left me with a lot of deep contemplation of advanced philosophy while I tried to figure things out. After a while, I kind of lost interest as my personal values kind of shifted and collapsed.

Part of the reason why I'm here is to revive that once enthusiastic philosophical side of me in a more optimistic light.

Atheism and nihilism are serious business for a lot of people when they're sincere about it - both are inherently based upon the absence of something philosophical in nature so it provides a baseline for creating your own meaning (which I understand to be humanist or existentialist if I'm not mistaken).

I say serious business because, once the threshold of nihilism is crossed, it's very hard to see the perceive reality the same way that you did previously. I've known philosophy majors who developed very serious psychological problems for engaging in the discipline and taking it seriously. People can often lose their minds when they indulge atheism/nihilism because it leaves them with a sense of emptiness or purposelessness - symptoms of very serious mental illnesses and disorders and a propensity to enjoy - fleetingly - a kind of impulsive hedonism that can lead to very regrettable consequences.

I guess you could call me a recovering atheist/nihilist - I'm very very far from out of the woods yet.

Have you thought about venturing back into religious practice? What are your thoughts on spirituality?

 

[ChristineM]

Again, not a benefit of atheism, but of anti-religiosity. Plenty of non-religious theist have the same freedom. And to be clear, religions can't force anyone to give them money, either. Though some will surely try.

Call it what you will, I don't really care for your prejudices.

The fact remains, atheist benefit

 

[McBell]

Of course. That way you’re sure to learn nothing. Because as a ‘critical thinker’, you’re never going to be critical of your own thinking.

You should start a spreadsheet for the members of RF to be able to keep track of your nonsense.
Like I already told you long ago, I am not a subscriber to the snake oil you are so desperate to sale.

Which I also find rather strange.
I find you to be rather intelligent and engaging on pretty much all other topics.
But once you get started on atheism, it is right straight down a rabbit hole.