What do you mean by "free will?"

[MrMrdevincamus]

Matthew 5:28 (AKJV)
28 but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

The key words in this are; " whosoever looketh on a woman to lust". The way I interpret that is to look at a woman with a goal to lust. I.e. ; " That whosoever looketh on a woman (ONLY) to lust. is a sin. If a man or woman looks at an attractive potential mate and is ahhh' sexually attracted its natural and not a sin. However if you say go to a clothing optional beach for the purpose of sexual gratification or excitement that is a sin. It's simple common sense eh?​

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[Skwim]

The key words in this are; " whosoever looketh on a woman to lust". The way I interpret that is to look at a woman with a goal to lust. I.e. ; " That whosoever looketh on a woman (ONLY) to lust. is a sin. If a man or woman looks at an attractive potential mate and is ahhh' sexually attracted its natural and not a sin. However if you say go to a clothing optional beach for the purpose of sexual gratification or excitement that is a sin. It's simple common sense eh?​

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Don't see why it has to be a goal. An attractive woman can just happen to evoke lust can't she? Of course she can.

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[MrMrdevincamus]

Don't see why it has to be a goal. An attractive woman can just happen to evoke lust can't she? Of course she can.

You missed the point. I said if we intentionally dwell* in the lust its a sin. We will know when it stops being an Innocent 'oops' and becomes a dwelling on 'unclean thoughts'.(dwell means to INTENTIONALLY think about the lass's natural gifts etc). I am sure when a soul is judged both the judged and God will know when it goes from an innocent look to intentionally lusting. As I said its simple.

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[Skwim]

You missed the point. I said if we intentionally dwell* in the lust its a sin. We will know when it stops being an Innocent 'oops' and becomes a dwelling on 'unclean thoughts'.(dwell means to INTENTIONALLY think about the lass's natural gifts etc). I am sure when a soul is judged both the judged and God will know when it goes from an innocent look to intentionally lusting. As I said its simple.

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Where did you say "dwell"? I think your imagination is kicking into overdrive here.

In any case, the Bible doesn't say a thing about dwelling, intentionally or otherwise. But for the sake of argument, how long after the lust sets in does a person have until saying "Oops" before it turns into a sin?

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[MrMrdevincamus]

Where did you say "dwell"? I think your imagination is kicking into overdrive here.

In any case, the Bible doesn't say a thing about dwelling, intentionally or otherwise. But for the sake of argument, how long after the lust sets in does a person have until saying "Oops" before it turns into a sin?

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I oftentimes edit my replies. What happened is I posted the unedited version. The reply should of read ; "You missed the point. I MEANT if we intentionally dwell* in the lust it's a sin". Of course you already know that and because of your failure to succeed in respectfully responding to my rebuttals you are resorting to base tactics that have no place in this forum. I have already answered the rest of your concerns. If you can not understand the difference between intentionally lusting and noticing a woman is attractive, productive debate will be impossible.

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[JustWondering]

The entire concept of "free will" is BS. Anyone who would propagate that idea has not thought it out very clearly.

In my experience, most proponents of "free will" are unable/unwilling to think it through.

 

[JustWondering]

Will is intention and the nature of it. Freedom means you are going to decide the nature of your intentions at some point in your life. The two choices are that which is just, or that which is unjustifiable by any means. Most people make their choice in youth as to the type of person they are going to be.
That is free will. Once you exercise it, than you are bound by the laws of your choice of injustice or become free in the justice of what is good for life.

So once free will is exercised, you become who you are by that choice.

I disagree. Some people are hot heads, some cowards, some greedy, and I don't think anyone chooses any of those attributes for themselves. Just like some people are better at math then others. Some have better memories then others. There is much more about us, that defines us, that is not chosen than what is chosen. Our brains having the biological ability to make choices is a far step away from the "free will" some theists like to believe people have.

 

[JustWondering]

Free will is simply the ability to make you own decisions, that's all. And I experience this process every waking moment of life. In my view, it takes a deep commitment of faith to believe that your consciousness and ability to interact with the world around you is essentially an illusion. Which itself implies free will, as you have to choose to accept determinist prepositions. (Yet alone argue for them).


You do in fact have a great deal of control over your desires. It is called custody of the mind, wherein you make the conscious effort over time you inculcate a helpful disposition towards virtue. You do this by consciously rejecting bad impulses and going out of your way to act on good ones. But this requires you to take responsibility for your own internal state, which is often anathema to the modern mindset. Indeed, there's an entire industry predicated on getting people to do the exact opposite.


I have the ability to do what I wish to do, insofar as I have the ability to act. There's no contradiction in saying that my choices are real and that there are limits to my ability to enact my will. We still live in a world of rules. What is denied is that those "rules" predetermine my choices. It isn't the laws of physics that "caused" me to punch someone in the face, it was my choice to do so. "Physical laws" are only relevant insofar as it is physically impossible for me to attack someone with telekinesis. But that limitation doesn't mean my will (my ability to choose how to act) is somehow an illusion because of that.

When I say we have free will I am saying that you truly make choices and are responsible for those choices. Not that those choices occur tabula rasa and that world is an empty sandbox wherein you have no limits on your influence and abilities.

That's lovely and all, but, how do you explain mental illness? If our choices are not the product of our biological brains (which are most certainly subject to the laws of physics), what is responsible for our choices? Magic?

 

[JustWondering]

Not a solid argument though.

Because I can't chose to shoot lasers out of my eyes like superman. Free will doesn't exist.

Free will is not the ability to do whatever you want with no exceptions.

No, his argument is quite solid. You seem to be arguing against something he never even said.

 

[Enoch07]

No, his argument is quite solid. You seem to be arguing against something he never even said.

His argument was, because he cannot chose the choices he gets to chose from, that free will does not exist. My analysis is spot on. We get to chose from the cards we been dealt. That is free will.

 

[JustWondering]

Free will is given for us to rise above our animal instincts. So lets examine this against your 3 steps, but there needs to be a 4th, which is indeed the first step.

1 - First what determines what is an evil desire? What are the set boundaries, mans laws or Gods Laws? Nature and Nurture for each person would define these and one would presume that the person making the choice, has already had an education that defines the Moral Boundaries. The education given should have given us the skills required to suppress animal desires for higher goals and for the good of all peoples. This is best done with the Spirit of Faith.

"1. The person has an evil desire." This is the seed to activate free will, the chance to make a positive and good thought override the evil desire, at this stage we have the choice to replace this evil thought with a thought that is good.

2. The person chooses to act on their evil desire. This is the Free will Choice. When Nature and Nurture Had set the boundaries and told of the consequences of neglecting those boundaries, then this is man giving into his weaker side. If Nature and Nurture has neglected to give the boundaries, then we have to ask what was the boundary crossed?

3. The person causes the evil desire to happen. Could we say the cause was actually before this, the cause was at your step 1 when the seed of the evil choice was not replaced with the seed of a better thought. Could it be the thought is already the act, even if not to the stage of acting upon it in each individual. By harboring the thought, we feed others that are weaker to undertake the act.

In life we must consider to take all evil out of all our thoughts and not in any way feed the desire to do what is not good.

Regards Tony

I agree that morals are a subjective value. Unfortunately, the god of the bible has morals I don't agree with. I find slavery abhorrent and god supports it. How is it that a human can have a moral code that gives more love, respect, and dignity to humanity than god?

 

[JustWondering]

It just seems defeatist to me. I got too much fight in me to subscribe to such a belief.

There is no fight though. It is simply the nature of things. You are what you are. The universe and everything in it is a natural phenomenon. We are a PART of that phenomenon, not separate from it.

 

[JustWondering]

His argument was, because he cannot chose the choices he gets to chose from, that free will does not exist. My analysis is spot on. We get to chose from the cards we been dealt. That is free will.

But how and why you make the choices you make are not under "your" control. The person you perceive yourself to be is an illusion. It has been demonstrated that the subconscious mind makes decisions seconds before the conscious mind ("you") are even aware of it. "You" didn't choose your favorite foods, favorite color, sexual orientation. "You" don't always get to choose when you feel hunger, pain, happiness, sadness. Some days "I" feel unmotivated and depressed, while others "I" am energetic and upbeat. "I'd" always choose to feel energetic and upbeat but, not "my" choice. Most people underestimate the amount of stuff going on behind the scenes, so to speak, in the sub conscious that is responsible for constructing the conscious mind.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I agree that morals are a subjective value. Unfortunately, the god of the bible has morals I don't agree with. I find slavery abhorrent and god supports it. How is it that a human can have a moral code that gives more love, respect, and dignity to humanity than god?

The way I see it is that all the Morality we can find, in the end leeds us to God. It is said we are made in that image.

This is an important question and you will find if you look in detail at that subject, that Slave in those times, was not as we see a slave in this time. The translated word can have other meanings.

Man has enslaved people not using the original guidance of the Holy Books and thus clouded our perception.

This can be easily researched.

Regards Tony

 

[Enoch07]

There is no fight though. It is simply the nature of things. You are what you are. The universe and everything in it is a natural phenomenon. We are a PART of that phenomenon, not separate from it.

But it does not control us. We work within it.

 

[Enoch07]

But how and why you make the choices you make are not under "your" control. The person you perceive yourself to be is an illusion. It has been demonstrated that the subconscious mind makes decisions seconds before the conscious mind ("you") are even aware of it. "You" didn't choose your favorite foods, favorite color, sexual orientation. "You" don't always get to choose when you feel hunger, pain, happiness, sadness. Some days "I" feel unmotivated and depressed, while others "I" am energetic and upbeat. "I'd" always choose to feel energetic and upbeat but, not "my" choice. Most people underestimate the amount of stuff going on behind the scenes, so to speak, in the sub conscious that is responsible for constructing the conscious mind.

You work with the cards you been dealt. Sure you can't chose your sexual orientation or whether you suffer from depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc. But that does not negate free will. Free will is used to determine what you do with what's available to you. Just because you suffer from depression, does not mean you are destined to commit suicide, or live a miserable life. You can chose to seek treatment. In which you have a chance to get medication or psychological therapy to help you deal with depression and live a better life. Or you can not seek treatment, the choice is yours.

Your philosophy is defeatist. It is resigning yourself to a fate instead of giving yourself a fighting chance. That is why it is useless. It takes away peoples options.

 

[Skwim]

I oftentimes edit my replies. What happened is I posted the unedited version. The reply should of read ; "You missed the point. I MEANT if we intentionally dwell* in the lust it's a sin". Of course you already know that and because of your failure to succeed in respectfully responding to my rebuttals you are resorting to base tactics that have no place in this forum. I have already answered the rest of your concerns. If you can not understand the difference between intentionally lusting and noticing a woman is attractive, productive debate will be impossible.

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I understand your choice not to answer my question, and slide into digression mode.

Have a nice day.

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[MrMrdevincamus]

In my experience, most proponents of "free will" are unable/unwilling to think it through.

Many are 'unable/unwilling to think it through' because it's a complex difficult subject for believers or non believers (of free will God etc). And so the debate rages, it doesn't matter of one holds a PhD or a street H D. Personally I have a simple view of how free will can exist in a deterministic universe, but my interpretation includes a complex twist that is similar to quantum probability of how it can work even when the future may be mostly known.

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[Kenny]

Adam and Eve were not blank pages. Otherwise no choice would have been made.

They had nothing of evil written on the pages of their hearts. Adam willfully made a choice.

 

[Glaurung]

That's lovely and all, but, how do you explain mental illness? If our choices are not the product of our biological brains (which are most certainly subject to the laws of physics), what is responsible for our choices? Magic?

I did not claim that humans aren't subject to physical and biological realities, only that there's nothing about those realities that predetermines me to anything in particular. That I had noodles for lunch wasn't an inevitability of physics or my biology. I could have had a sandwich instead.

Now obviously the mentally ill have compromised faculties which will greatly affect their decision making, but that doesn't mean that their ability to make decisions in and of itself is an illusion.