What do you mean by "free will?"

[MrMrdevincamus]

They had nothing of evil written on the pages of their hearts. Adam willfully made a choice.

Genesis is not my favorite style biblical book, I prefer Revelation and other Apocalyptic writings. That said I think Adam was entrapped, lol! I lean towards having the opinion of the apple thing ie the event of eating the fruit of good and evil (knowledge of) as being a metaphor', but as evidence emerges I may change that opinion.

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[Faithofchristian]

In the bible James Written in the book of James 1:14,15.

Verse 14 --"But every man is tempted, When he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed"

The word ( Lust ) Translated being
( desires )
The word ( enticed ) Translated being
( trick ) ( bait ) ( deceit )

Verse 15 --"Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, When it is finished, brings forth death"

Then when lust has obtain that which it lusted for it brings

Matthew 5:28 (AKJV)
28 but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

.

If you haven't notice. That Verse pertains to a Married woman.
Otherwise explain exactly how a single person can commit adultery with another single person?
That pertains to a woman that is Married to a man and another man lusts after her which is Married. Then that man is committing Adultery with her in his heart.

This means Everyone who keeps looking on a Married woman to lust after her, has committed adultery with her in his heart.

Now is the woman at fault, No.
The man here is at fault knowing she Married but still lusting after her and Yes this in this situation a single man can commit adultery with a woman that is Married.
But if a single man lusts after a single woman, that's not Adultery.

One or the other would have to be Married to commit Adultery.
How else are a man and a woman to come together who are single. if they don't at lease have some kinda lust burning in their heart for each other?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I did not claim that humans aren't subject to physical and biological realities, only that there's nothing about those realities that predetermines me to anything in particular. That I had noodles for lunch wasn't an inevitability of physics or my biology. I could have had a sandwich instead.

Now obviously the mentally ill have compromised faculties which will greatly affect their decision making, but that doesn't mean that their ability to make decisions in and of itself is an illusion.

Question (to M Bassist or other members) ; Since we are both believers (in an eternal God) having some doctrinal differences me being a type of Christian and you a Catholic I am aware that even within the ranks of Catholicism the free will debate rages. It sure does in the various forms of Protestant doctrines! I had to come to terms of how one can have free will and believe in a God that knows every thing down to the number of hairs on our heads. That is if God knows I am going to go to Micky Dees for a coffee with creme tomorrow at 8;30 then I will surely go to Micky Dees at 830 and get coffee. According to traditional belief I do not really have free will I simply think I have free will. I believe in free will but I also believe in God that is all knowing so to speak, at least all knowing in human terms.

If you or someone has already covered this free will paradox satisfactorily in this thread please direct me to the thread # ?

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[MrMrdevincamus]

In the bible James Written in the book of James 1:14,15.

Verse 14 --"But every man is tempted, When he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed"

The word ( Lust ) Translated being
( desires )
The word ( enticed ) Translated being
( trick ) ( bait ) ( deceit )

Verse 15 --"Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, When it is finished, brings forth death"

Then when lust has obtain that which it lusted for it brings


If you haven't notice. That Verse pertains to a Married woman.
Otherwise explain exactly how a single person can commit adultery with another single person?
That pertains to a woman that is Married to a man and another man lusts after her which is Married. Then that man is committing Adultery with her in his heart.

This means Everyone who keeps looking on a Married woman to lust after her, has committed adultery with her in his heart.

Now is the woman at fault, No.
The man here is at fault knowing she Married but still lusting after her and Yes this in this situation a single man can commit adultery with a woman that is Married.
But if a single man lusts after a single woman, that's not Adultery.

One or the other would have to be Married to commit Adultery.
How else are a man and a woman to come together who are single. if they don't at lease have some kinda lust burning in their heart for each other?

Its important to note that the bible is rather relaxed and somewhat liberal when describing or advising about most sexual conduct. If any doubt on this read the song of Solomon in its 'unedited' version. Here is a link to the edited version that is found in the bible;
Song of Songs 1

An link to understand the 'kink' of the song, lol;

New Life Community Church » Sexual Allusions and Symbols in the Song of Songs


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[JustWondering]

This is an important question and you will find if you look in detail at that subject, that Slave in those times, was not as we see a slave in this time. The translated word can have other meanings.

The bible says it was cool to beat your slaves as long as they didn't die right away. So no, Slaves in those times were slaves, period. The fact that you would rather try to defend slavery than admit it is abhorrent is also very sad.

 

[JustWondering]

But it does not control us. We work within it.

You're missing the point. We are a part of "it" not separate from "it".

 

[JustWondering]

You work with the cards you been dealt. Sure you can't chose your sexual orientation or whether you suffer from depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc. But that does not negate free will. Free will is used to determine what you do with what's available to you. Just because you suffer from depression, does not mean you are destined to commit suicide, or live a miserable life. You can chose to seek treatment. In which you have a chance to get medication or psychological therapy to help you deal with depression and live a better life. Or you can not seek treatment, the choice is yours.

Your philosophy is defeatist. It is resigning yourself to a fate instead of giving yourself a fighting chance. That is why it is useless. It takes away peoples options.

We live in a deterministic universe. We are who we are because we ultimately have no real choice. When artificial intelligence is developed will it have "free will"? It will have as much "free will" as a person does.

 

[JustWondering]

Many are 'unable/unwilling to think it through' because it's a complex difficult subject for believers or non believers (of free will God etc). And so the debate rages, it doesn't matter of one holds a PhD or a street H D. Personally I have a simple view of how free will can exist in a deterministic universe, but my interpretation includes a complex twist that is similar to quantum probability of how it can work even when the future may be mostly known.

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I don't believe in spirits and magic. We are physical beings, which means we are a part of and subject to all the physical laws of this deterministic universe. For many theists version of "free will" to work, humans have to be free from cause and effect, which simply isn't the case.

 

[JustWondering]

I did not claim that humans aren't subject to physical and biological realities, only that there's nothing about those realities that predetermines me to anything in particular. That I had noodles for lunch wasn't an inevitability of physics or my biology. I could have had a sandwich instead.

Past events lead to future events. Humans are a part of a universe that has cause and effect as one of it's laws. Since we are a part of this universe and in no way separate from it we are subject to cause and effect. So a chain of events so complex that is beyond any hope of comprehension lead to you eating noodles. You had as much real choice in eating noodles as you had in being born and existing. It seems counter intuitive since we perceive ourselves as having "free will" but it is an illusion our minds construct.

 

[Enoch07]

You're missing the point. We are a part of "it" not separate from "it".

We can work within it. Obviously your closed minded to any other idea. You want to be a defeatist, you go right ahead. I'll be over here doing my thang.

 

[Enoch07]

We live in a deterministic universe. We are who we are because we ultimately have no real choice. When artificial intelligence is developed will it have "free will"? It will have as much "free will" as a person does.

I disagree. Sure some things cannot be changed. The serenity prayer comes to mind.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.


There is wisdom to found there whether your religious or not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The bible says it was cool to beat your slaves as long as they didn't die right away. So no, Slaves in those times were slaves, period. The fact that you would rather try to defend slavery than admit it is abhorrent is also very sad.

I am not defending Slavery it has been made unlawful by Baha'u'llah and I personally detest the idea of slavery, as we know it.

To be just you must search the history of this topic. Your comments indicate you may not be looking for the truth in this matter.

Stay well and always look with justice.

Regards Tony

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

The bible says it was cool to beat your slaves as long as they didn't die right away. So no, Slaves in those times were slaves, period. The fact that you would rather try to defend slavery than admit it is abhorrent is also very sad.

First we can not judge a ancient people by modern standards. But lets get to the other part of your attack...er' reply. The sad thing is how often the bible is misinterpreted. Or when its cherry-picked. Or when its misread. Or when its twisted in an attempt to justify the readers own hate for Christianity. So what verse are you referencing when making those sad sad claim.
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[MrMrdevincamus]

I am not defending Slavery it has been made unlawful by Baha'u'llah and I personally detest the idea of slavery, as we know it.

To be just you must search the history of this topic. Your comments indicate you may not be looking for the truth in this matter. Reply

Stay well and always look with justice.

Regards Tony

Right on the nail head as granny would say. Especially this excerpt; "Your comments indicate you may not be looking for the truth in this matter". Your correct of course and you are respectful even when um' rebutting falsehoods against God'.

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[MrMrdevincamus]

I don't believe in spirits and magic. We are physical beings, which means we are a part of and subject to all the physical laws of this deterministic universe. For many theists version of "free will" to work, humans have to be free from cause and effect, which simply isn't the case.

Science is changing. It is becoming unreliable in some areas, and worse its violating its own scientific method and the rules its used for over a century to define valid theory. Old dogma and idea are being gently pushed aside and some dearly held scientific ideas are getting body slammed to the gutter. The changes are especially true in cutting edge physics and cosmology. You said we (and all objects...addition mine) have to obey physical laws which is true at least in our local area. However, theoretical physicists, astronomers and astrophysicists are suggesting scientific (Physical) laws can and are different in some areas of the universe*. Even long held laws are violated as well.

A fairly recent theory called the MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation) of universe origins tells us reality is stranger than any fiction. The MWI is an accepted scientific theory but its implications are suggesting reality is like what happens in the Beetle juice movie or a Grim brothers fairy tale**. In the many universe or many worlds interpretation there are realities (places) where anything we can imagine are or will become reality, ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING**.

And consider how lax science has become when accepting theory that does not meet its very own scientific method. The science establishment embraced String theory***. However after its acceptance the convoluted mess did not produce any verifiable predictions as required to meet the scientific critira for theory. In fact ST failed for decades to produce verifiable results, and there is still debate if it has to this day! Lastly but not all, just recently I read an article that said researchers are convinced that in some areas of the universe physical law is so different**** it would be unrecognizable, translation? Things like cause and effect may not exist everywhere gravity may (is) repulsive rather than attracting, and time may not exist. For example, we know that once an object goes past the event horizon of a black hole time 'stops', gravity becomes infinitely powerful and most if not all phyical law fails....reality isn't reality in the singularity. We should note the big bang also emerged out of a type of singularity, remember time does not exist in a singularity? How does cause and effect work without time?

So be careful with getting too comfy with the false reality that science has painted for us the last centuries. Why? Because what we call reality is in fact an illusion. Reality is Gods realm an atemporal world where time does not apply and mans puny eighty years or so means nothing. Science is merging with metaphysics as it should as it was before the logical empiricists perverted the nature of reality and the science of the western world in the early 1900's.

Supporting notes;

*.......Laws of physics vary throughout the universe, new study ...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100909004112.htm
... that the laws of physics are different in different parts of the universe. ... regions may exist where different laws preclude ... new physical theories to ..

** ...... You Have Done And/Or Will Do Everything You Could Ever Conceive Of
http://listverse.com/2013/02/22/10-mind-bending-implications-of-the-many-worlds-theory/

***..........Why String Theory Is Not A Scientific Theory – Starts With A Bang! – Medium

****.......https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100909004112.htm
Laws of physics vary throughout the universe, new study ... is not the same everywhere as ... other far more distant regions may exist where different laws ...

Laws of physics may change across the universe | New …
Laws of physics may change across the universe...
Laws of physics may change across the universe. ... which states that the laws of physics are the same everywhere. ... At the centre of the new study is the fine ...

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"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

The bible says it was cool to beat your slaves as long as they didn't die right away. So no, Slaves in those times were slaves, period. The fact that you would rather try to defend slavery than admit it is abhorrent is also very sad.

One last correction about the slavery falsehood you posted before I cut the roots I have grown to this chair, no notebook here but I want another (I crunched the last one camping)...


"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)


Get it?

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[MrMrdevincamus]

What a boring tour de force I created ~

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[Glaurung]

Past events lead to future events. Humans are a part of a universe that has cause and effect as one of it's laws. Since we are a part of this universe and in no way separate from it we are subject to cause and effect. So a chain of events so complex that is beyond any hope of comprehension lead to you eating noodles. You had as much real choice in eating noodles as you had in being born and existing. It seems counter intuitive since we perceive ourselves as having "free will" but it is an illusion our minds construct.

Your reasoning is predicated on a view of the universe you can't actually prove, physicalism. I don't take it for granted that reality is nothing but one big clockwork system of material interactions.

If you truly believe that your volition is an illusion then I can't really talk to you any further. How can I? You say that free will is an illusion of the mind, but take your reasoning to its logical conclusion you can't even assert the existence of the mind. On what intelligible level can anyone be said to "think" if our thoughts are utterly predetermined?

 

[Glaurung]

Question (to M Bassist or other members) ; Since we are both believers (in an eternal God) having some doctrinal differences me being a type of Christian and you a Catholic I am aware that even within the ranks of Catholicism the free will debate rages. It sure does in the various forms of Protestant doctrines! I had to come to terms of how one can have free will and believe in a God that knows every thing down to the number of hairs on our heads. That is if God knows I am going to go to Micky Dees for a coffee with creme tomorrow at 8;30 then I will surely go to Micky Dees at 830 and get coffee. According to traditional belief I do not really have free will I simply think I have free will. I believe in free will but I also believe in God that is all knowing so to speak, at least all knowing in human terms.

God exists beyond any considerations of time and linearity. That God may know how history will ultimately play out does not mean that history played out independently of the choices of intelligent beings. What I am saying is that God in the exercise of his providence has taken into account all choices made (and will be made) by intelligent beings in creation. Thus even though God knows what will happen, it does not mean that your choices were predetermined by God because of that.

It is also a mystery. God being so utterly beyond us it is impossible to comprehend Him. Nevertheless God holds us to moral account, therefore we must be accountable. To be accountable we have to have freedom to make moral choices. On this point, we just have to trust God in both the fact that He exercises providence and that our lives are free for us to write.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

God exists beyond any considerations of time and linearity. That God may know how history will ultimately play out does not mean that history played out independently of the choices of intelligent beings. What I am saying is that God in the exercise of his providence has taken into account all choices made (and will be made) by intelligent beings in creation. Thus even though God knows what will happen, it does not mean that your choices were predetermined by God because of that.

So you are saying that God just knows what choices we have but God does not know which choice we will take? That is the same as saying God does not know our future only that we have a future and choices in that future. I can not agree with that. I will say your take on that is closer to prophesy than anything else. The bible is deliberately general on prophesy events so choices can be made. In other words God knows the details but he is not writing them down. Remember the betrayal of Jesus? He knew the details of his betrayal and told his disciples the details so how did Judas have a choice?

It is also a mystery. God being so utterly beyond us it is impossible to comprehend Him. Nevertheless God holds us to moral account, therefore we must be accountable.

I do not think that is entirely true. There are things about God we may never understand and I do think God exists in his realm more than on earth for that very reason. However God wants a personal relationship with man so we do have to know somethings and understand some things of God.

To be accountable we have to have freedom to make moral choices. On this point, we just have to trust God in both the fact that He exercises providence and that our lives are free for us to write.

Of course we must have faith, as I pointed out faith in God is the most important, and the most difficult to muster of attribute of all, imo. I think we think we have free will and there is a way to calculate how that works. Don't fret because even if we just think we have free will the universe changes to meet those thoughts making the free will possible.

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