What do you think about other religions?

[nPeace]

I am just going to reply to your first claim, "JWs do not proselytize" which is patently false. Explain to me why I get unsolicited handwritten letters from JWs (3 times now) trying to proselytize. JWs knock on my door, proselytizing. Your claim is ridiculous.

So that you know, Orbit, if you do not want to receive letters, telephone calls, or house visits, from JW's, just contact the branch office where you live, and express your desire.
To get that information, you can go to Find a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses - Find a location near you, and give them the information they need to inform the Witnesses not to call.
You shouldn't be 'bothered' after that.

 

[Trailblazer]

But why did Baha'u'llah suddenly decide that he was born of a virgin but did not resurrect after death? What kind of knowledge did Baha'u'llah have to know exactly one miracle but not believe the other? Does Baha'u'llah have some sort of divine intuition that tells him when something is true and when something is false?

Baha'u'llah did not suddenly decide that. He knew that because He got His knowledge from God, who is all-knowing.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

And doesn't the fact that the Baha'is teach that all the other prophets were born naturally raise red flags when it comes to the specialty of Jesus and his supposed miracle of his existence in the first place? It would be one thing if you said "all messengers exist because of the divine" but you make it abundantly clear that Jesus was the only messenger that had a miraculous birth. Why should people focus so much more on Baha'u'llah when it was Jesus that was the miracle to begin with? Consistency....

Why should people focus so much more on Jesus just because He was born of a virgin?
All the Manifestations were able to perform miracles so both Jesus and Baha'u'llah performed miracles inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things, not the miracles.

“The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared……

But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ……

The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.” Some Answered Questions, p. 100-102

22: MIRACLES

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is accept the virgin birth and reject the physical resurrection of Jesus, but I don't understand why they would do that. God can and did do the one miracle, the virgin birth, but he can't or didn't want to do the second the bodily resurrection of Jesus?

What God does is not about what God can do. God only does what God chooses to do, and the resurrection is not what God chose to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Baha'u'llah did not suddenly decide that. He knew that because He got His knowledge from God, who is all-knowing.

The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. Are you saying over two billion Christians got the part that Jesus resurrected incorrectly?

Why should people focus so much more on Jesus just because He was born of a virgin?
All the Manifestations were able to perform miracles so both Jesus and Baha'u'llah performed miracles inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things, not the miracles.

I would think that if your very existence is caused by God that makes you more valuable than someone who was born naturally.

What recorded miracles did Baha’u’llah perform in his lifetime? I get that Baha’u’llah had deep spiritual insight but what does that mean to the average person?

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. Are you saying over two billion Christians got the part that Jesus resurrected incorrectly?

I am saying that I believe they got it wrong, and I am not the only one, since many Christians do not believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected.

“Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.”

Religioustolerance.org

I would think that if your very existence is caused by God that makes you more valuable than someone who was born naturally.

I do not think like that.

“If the greatness of Christ is His being fatherless, then Adam is greater than Christ, for He had neither father nor mother. It is 90 said in the Old Testament, “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” 2 Observe that it is said that Adam came into existence from the Spirit of life. Moreover, the expression which John uses in regard to the disciples proves that they also are from the Heavenly Father. Hence it is evident that the holy reality, meaning the real existence of every great man, comes from God and owes its being to the breath of the Holy Spirit.

The purport is that, if to be without a father is the greatest human glory, then Adam is greater than all, for He had neither father nor mother. Is it better for a man to be created from a living substance or from earth? Certainly it is better if he be created from a living substance. But Christ was born and came into existence from the Holy Spirit.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 89-90

What recorded miracles did Baha’u’llah perform in his lifetime? I get that Baha’u’llah had deep spiritual insight but what does that mean to the average person?

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

 

[Nakosis]

This is directed to the respected members of all religions. There are differences between religions but Interfaith tries to look for what we have in common. Should we allow our differences to divide us or should we put aside our differences and work for the betterment of the world?

By religion I do not mean denomination or sect. I mean a different religion or philosophy such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam etc.

As a member of your faith, do you accept other religions are true or only your religion?

Does your religion promote fellowship between members of other faiths or not.

Do you ever read or study other religions within your religion.

Do you think religions can unite and accept each other. For example Jews accept Christ and Christians accept Muhammad. If not why not?

I think it is rather silly for anyone to assume they have any authority to make any claims about God.
However if they personally have some belief they are comfortable with and isn't breaking any civil laws, that fine as long as they don't insist on anyone else accepting the same belief.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The thing about logic is that if you only respect it "up to a point," then you don't respect it at all.

Agreed. We also often see this same thing from creationists, but regarding science - "I'm a big supporter of science, but only real science."

JWs do not proselytize

They were at my door this week. Unfortunately, I missed them. My wife answered and said no thank you.

So that you know, Orbit, if you do not want to receive letters, telephone calls, or house visits, from JW's, just contact the branch office where you live, and express your desire.

Why would that be necessary if the religion doesn't proselytize?

We expect that honest hearted ones who don't want to be part of this world will join us. This is realistic.

This is why I was sorry to have missed the Witnesses this week. The last time they knocked, they began with a world going to hell in a basket claim, and I disagreed. I said that life has never been so good for so many, and that my life was very good as was that of just about everybody I know, although we're most retired expats living in a happy, pretty place with plenty of social life possibilities. They thanked me and left, which surprised me. I was rejected by the Witnesses! I wasn't aware that ever happened short of being hostile or dismissive with them. They didn't try to discuss it further or to change my mind, they just gave up on me. Were they stumped? Surely they must have heard that answer before, and presumably would have something scripted to use in reply, but that didn't happen. Maybe the reason is in your words. I am happy to be engaged in life. This is why I was so disappointed to miss them this week. I wanted to see if it would happen again like that.

It takes a great deal of reading what the Bible says to know that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies.

Why? To learn the messianic prophecies, all one need do is Google them. They don't need to be read more than once, nor pored over the one time they are read. Then look at the life offered as fulfilling those prophecies and judge whether they match. Spoiler: They don't.

Why should people focus so much more on Jesus just because He was born of a virgin?

If they believe that, they'll more likely believe that he was a messenger of God. Remember when we were discussing Baha'u'llah ministry, and how much he could have used a miracle like sky writing before it was humanly possible as a kind of imprimatur of his message's authenticity? And do you not also recall the comment that if one removes the magic from the story of Jesus, all that remains is an ordinary man living an ordinary life telling people to be pious and nice.

There was a child born during the recent earthquake in Turkey and Syria to a mother that delivered within the rubble, but didn't survive - just the baby. Sounds like a great bio for Superman or Achilles. But imagine if she were to begin roaming the land claiming that she was saved by God to deliver a message to mankind. Jesus had the virgin birth, but Baha'u'llah had nothing like that.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

You have an answer for everything, and I like that. I just want to let you know, though, that link doesn’t work. It redirects to some random Dutch website that has no relation to the Baha’i Faith. But thank you for the enlightenment and good conversation.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have an answer for everything, and I like that. I just want to let you know, though, that link doesn’t work. It redirects to some random Dutch website that has no relation to the Baha’i Faith. But thank you for the enlightenment and good conversation.

Sorry about that and thanks for pointing that out. When I clicked on the link it said Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead.
So I looked for another website and I found one.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

 

[nPeace]

Why would that be necessary if the religion doesn't proselytize?

The person does not want a witness.

This is why I was sorry to have missed the Witnesses this week. The last time they knocked, they began with a world going to hell in a basket claim, and I disagreed.

Going to hell? That's not a line JWs use. Sounds more like something you or other atheists would say they said.

I said that life has never been so good for so many, and that my life was very good as was that of just about everybody I know, although we're most retired expats living in a happy, pretty place with plenty of social life possibilities. They thanked me and left, which surprised me. I was rejected by the Witnesses! I wasn't aware that ever happened short of being hostile or dismissive with them. They didn't try to discuss it further or to change my mind, they just gave up on me. Were they stumped? Surely they must have heard that answer before, and presumably would have something scripted to use in reply, but that didn't happen. Maybe the reason is in your words. I am happy to be engaged in life. This is why I was so disappointed to miss them this week. I wanted to see if it would happen again like that.

 

[CG Didymus]

If they believe that, they'll more likely believe that he was a messenger of God. Remember when we were discussing Baha'u'llah ministry, and how much he could have used a miracle like sky writing before it was humanly possible as a kind of imprimatur of his message's authenticity? And do you not also recall the comment that if one removes the magic from the story of Jesus, all that remains is an ordinary man living an ordinary life telling people to be pious and nice.

If God is not going to write in the sky or show himself, a real good way to try and prove he is real is having his messenger get born by a virgin, heal the blind and lame, raise a couple of people from the dead, walk on water, turn water into wine, and then the grand finale... get himself resurrected and then ascend into heaven. But I'm actually worse than Baha'is. I doubt all of those things really happened. I think they are myths and legends and were embellishments added into the story to make Jesus a God/man.

The problem I have with Baha'is is how they claim they believe in the Bible, in Jesus and that Christianity is a true, revealed religion. But then they tell all the things they don't believe are true about them.

But there is another problem I have with the Baha'i Faith... Will it really work? They say that all nations should disarm except for a few weapons to keep the peace within their own country. Well, if they need weapons to keep their own people inline, then what about protecting themselves from aggression from other countries. And really, each country is going to trust all the other countries are going to disarm?

And then there is all their laws. Has any religion been successful at getting people, including the leaders in the religion, to obey all the laws, especially the sexual laws? It seems like even believers aren't intimidated by God and act as if he isn't there when it comes to getting a little. Although, I'm sure many of them feel guilty afterward.

So, if God is not going to show himself and get involved and leaves it all up to people to believe and obey him and his religious rules by faith, I don't think it will work. People will break the rules. And then what? If God is going to remain invisible and virtually not real, then it will be left to the religious leaders to enforce the rules. And that can't be good.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why? To learn the messianic prophecies, all one need do is Google them. They don't need to be read more than once, nor pored over the one time they are read. Then look at the life offered as fulfilling those prophecies and judge whether they match. Spoiler: They don't.

@Muffled said: It also takes a great deal of ignoring what the Bible says let alone the Holy Spirit.
That is why I said : It takes a great deal of reading what the Bible says to know that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies.

I was being facetious.

You are correct. It is not necessary to read the Bible to find those prophecies. You can find them by Googling them or on websites that list them
Then look at the life offered as fulfilling those prophecies and judge whether they match. Spoiler: They do.

You do not even have to Google them or go looking for websites that list them. All you have to do is read the following book, since the prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are in this book. Thief in the Night by William Sears

William Sears was raised as a Christian and was a Christian before he became a Baha'i and he knew the Bible very well. After researching the Baha'i Faith he became a Baha'i in adulthood. He also researched the prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah for seven years, and he even went to the holy land to verify his research by visiting the geographical locations that fulfilled the prophecies.

How do you think you can know that Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the prophecies if you do not know the history of the Baha'i Faith? Is that what you call critical thinking? History and geography are not a matter of opinion. They are irrefutable proof that the prophecies were fulfilled. Even if I had no other evidence that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be the fulfillment of the Bible prophecies would suffice

If they believe that, they'll more likely believe that he was a messenger of God. Remember when we were discussing Baha'u'llah ministry, and how much he could have used a miracle like sky writing before it was humanly possible as a kind of imprimatur of his message's authenticity? And do you not also recall the comment that if one removes the magic from the story of Jesus, all that remains is an ordinary man living an ordinary life telling people to be pious and nice.

You might be more likely to believe He was a Messenger of God because of the miracles, but that is because that would be evidence for you.

Spoiler alert: Baha'u'llah also performed miracles. They are delineated on this website.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

Also on that website is the miracle that took place at execution of the Bab, who was the Messenger of God who came to announce the coming of Baha'u'llah. The “miracle “of the execution of the Bab occurred in 1850, there were many thousands of witnesses, and it was in all the newspapers in Europe. In short, it is verifiable history, much unlike the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ or the virgin birth. The quote below says: "The passion of Jesus Christ, and indeed His whole public ministry, alone offer a parallel to the Mission and death of the Báb," The difference is that the public ministry of Jesus Christ is not verifiable as is the Mission and death of the Báb.

The events that took place at the execution are delineated on Wikipedia: Execution of the Báb

The execution is also cited in God Passes By:

“It would indeed be no exaggeration to say that nowhere in the whole compass of the world’s religious literature, except in the Gospels, do we find any record relating to the death of any of the religion-founders of the past comparable to the martyrdom suffered by the Prophet of Shíráz. So strange, so inexplicable a phenomenon, attested by eye-witnesses, corroborated by men of recognized standing, and acknowledged by government as well as unofficial historians among the people who had sworn undying hostility to the Bábí Faith, may be truly regarded as the most marvelous manifestation of the unique potentialities with which a Dispensation promised by all the Dispensations of the past had been endowed. The passion of Jesus Christ, and indeed His whole public ministry, alone offer a parallel to the Mission and death of the Báb, a parallel which no student of comparative religion can fail to perceive or ignore. In the youthfulness and meekness of the Inaugurator of the Bábí Dispensation; in the extreme brevity and turbulence of His public ministry; in the dramatic swiftness with which that ministry moved towards its climax; in the apostolic order which He instituted, and the primacy which He conferred on one of its members; in the boldness of His challenge to the time-honored conventions, rites and laws which had been woven into the fabric of the religion He Himself had been born into; in the rôle which an officially recognized and firmly entrenched religious hierarchy played as chief instigator of the outrages which He was made to suffer; in the indignities heaped upon Him; in the suddenness of His arrest; in the interrogation to which He was subjected; in the derision poured, and the scourging inflicted, upon Him; in the public affront He sustained; and, finally, in His ignominious suspension before the gaze of a hostile multitude—in all these we cannot fail to discern a remarkable similarity to the distinguishing features of the career of Jesus Christ.”

To Continue: The Execution of the Báb

Jesus had the virgin birth, but Baha'u'llah had nothing like that.

I can see that you are trying really hard but that argument won't work, since nobody can ever prove that Jesus was born of a virgin. I only believe it because it is upheld by Baha'u'llah, not because of what the Bible says.

Also, as noted above, Baha'u'llah also performed miracles.

 

[YoursTrue]

@Trailblazer Whether you believe it or not, there is a reason Jesus was born of a virgin. Which is interesting, because of the situation. I did read some of your references. Despite Dizzy Gillespie and Sears, including the account of the miracles attributed to Bahallua, I'm not convinced.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer Whether you believe it or not, there is a reason Jesus was born of a virgin.

Of course, everything God does is for a reason. What do you think the reason is for the virgin birth?

 

[YoursTrue]

Of course, everything God does is for a reason. What do you think the reason is for the virgin birth?

Because it was God Almighty who caused Mary to give birth to His Son.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because it was God Almighty who caused Mary to give birth to His Son.

Of course it was God who caused it, but what was the reason?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

problem I have with the Baha'i Faith... Will it really work?

Unifying the world? It's 179 years old now. What has it done so far apart from generating position papers that have little impact. I don't think the world will ever be one, but the fraction that want the most freedom and opportunity for the most people can grow and become a majority if they are not already, and form mutually tolerant communities as large as NATO and the EU - secular organizations embodying humanist values. And that's the best we can do, I believe. The humanists will be opposed by the religions and by authoritarians, but I expect them to prevail in the long run in large part due to democracy and church-state separation. I don't look to the Abrahamic religions for help, although they are welcome to join the secularists if they can respect humanist values, which respect reason, individual autonomy, and tolerance - the ingredients for happy communities.

The person does not want a witness.

I asked, "Why would that [the ability to call the local Kingdom Hall to get on a no-knock list] be necessary if the religion doesn't proselytize?" I meant why is it necessary for the JW's to offer such an option if they aren't proselytizing, not why it was necessary to choose it.

Going to hell? That's not a line JWs use. Sounds more like something you or other atheists would say they said.

It is something I said. I'm paraphrasing the Witnesses. What they said was some form of a claim that the world was falling apart. Going to hell in a basket is a colorful idiom claiming as much. Here are lyrics from a Grateful Dead song (not one of my favorites) by that name - Hell In A Bucket - about an unhappy couple:

You imagine me sipping champagne from your boot
For taste of your elegant pride
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe
But at least I'm enjoying the ride, at least I'll enjoy the ride.

How do you think you can know that Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the prophecies if you do not know the history of the Baha'i Faith?

All I need to know are the prophecies and some facts about the life of Baha'u'llah

According to the traditional Jewish definition of the term, the Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove, precisely because they take place in the real world. It is for this task that the Messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah — one who is anointed. These perceptible changes include:

• The Messiah reestablishes the Davidic dynasty through his own children (Daniel 7:13-14).
• The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, all peoples, and all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9).
• The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2).
• The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (including the carnivores) (Isaiah 11:6-9).
• All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12).
• The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15).
• The messiah, the Jews were told, would be a human being called Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14)
• He would be a king and a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5), a great military leader who would win battles for Israel, and a great judge who would make righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).

The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

• If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of Gd"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach".'

Now compare that to Baha'u'llah's biography.

Is that what you call critical thinking?

Yes. Reason tells us that Baha'u'llah does not fulfill these criteria.

History and geography are not a matter of opinion. They are irrefutable proof that the prophecies were fulfilled.

Neither are what you claim for them. The claims of biblical prophecy fulfillment have been refuted. Biblical prophecy is so vague that a wide variety of occurrences can be claimed to be their fulfillment. And some was written after the fact, and some is self-fulfilling. That is low quality prophecy, not better than Nostradamus. Scientific prophecy is of the highest quality, and even with that, scientists don't claim that their fulfilled prophecies signify more than human thought.

You might be more likely to believe He was a Messenger of God because of the miracles, but that is because that would be evidence for you.

Yes. Compelling evidence is what it takes to convince a critical thinker.

Baha'u'llah also performed miracles.

I have no reason to believe that and plenty not to.

I can see that you are trying really hard but that argument won't work, since nobody can ever prove that Jesus was born of a virgin.

Nor need they. They only need believe it.

I only believe it because it is upheld by Baha'u'llah, not because of what the Bible says.

A good example of why "proof" isn't necessary. There are apparently hundreds of millions of people who will believe that claim anyway.

What do you think the reason is for the virgin birth?

Why was it added to the Gospels? Along with resurrection, it was a familiar trope by the time of Christ - the demigod born of a virgin who died then lived again. From There's nothing new about virgin births (just ask Plato) :

"A virgin rollcall might include Romulus and Remus, twin founders of Rome, born of the virgin Rhea Silvia. In ancient Egypt, Ra (the Sun) was born of a virgin mother, Net; Horus was the son of the virgin Isis. The Phrygo-Roman god, Attis, was born of a virgin, Nana, on December 25. It resonates because he went on to be killed and was resurrected. In ancient Greece, Dionysos was the son of either the virgin Semele or the virgin Persephone. Persephone was also the virgin mother of Jason. And Plato’s mother, Perictione, was a virgin. The list goes on. Hinduism, Buddhism and ancient China all have their share of them and none is more or less believable than any other myth, fable or symbol."

Also, from Dying-and-rising deity - Wikipedia :

"The concept of a dying-and-rising god was first proposed in comparative mythology by James Frazer's seminal The Golden Bough (1890). Frazer associated the motif with fertility rites surrounding the yearly cycle of vegetation. Frazer cited the examples of Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis and Attis, Zagreus, Dionysus, and Jesus."

 

[Trailblazer]

Unifying the world? It's 179 years old now. What has it done so far apart from generating position papers that have little impact.

You expect the world to be unified in 179 years when it has been divided for thousands of years?
How can the world be unified when the religions do not want to unite?

All I need to know are the prophecies and some facts about the life of Baha'u'llah

According to the traditional Jewish definition of the term, the Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove, precisely because they take place in the real world. It is for this task that the Messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah — one who is anointed. These perceptible changes include:

• The Messiah reestablishes the Davidic dynasty through his own children (Daniel 7:13-14).
• The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, all peoples, and all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9).
• The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2).
• The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (including the carnivores) (Isaiah 11:6-9).
• All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12).
• The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15).
• The messiah, the Jews were told, would be a human being called Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14)
• He would be a king and a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5), a great military leader who would win battles for Israel, and a great judge who would make righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).

The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

• If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of Gd"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach".'

Now compare that to Baha'u'llah's biography.

Good luck with all that. I have already covered this ground with Jews and Christians. This is not my first rodeo.

Nowhere in the Jewish scripture does it say that the Messiah will do this himself, during his lifetime.
Nowhere in the Jewish scripture does it say how long after the Messiah comes these prophecies will be fulfilled.

Yes. Reason tells us that Baha'u'llah does not fulfill these criteria.

Reason tells me that messianic prophecies will be fulfilled during the messianic age, which will last no less tan 1000 years.
It began in 1852 AD, so we are only 170 years into this age. Some of the prophecies have been fulfilled already and others are in the process of being fulfilled. For one example:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace and the Lord of hosts. World peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. That is exactly what is happening right now. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice. This certainly qualifies as an 'increase' in government.

Neither are what you claim for them. The claims of biblical prophecy fulfillment have been refuted.

You have refuted nothing. You are just giving me a platform for advertising the Baha'i Faith.
Do you want some more prophecies that have been fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah? I have scads of them, so many that I don't even know where to start.

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

Biblical prophecy is so vague that a wide variety of occurrences can be claimed to be their fulfillment. And some was written after the fact, and some is self-fulfilling.

Some biblical prophecies are vague and some are very specific and could only have been fulfilled by one man. Need we go on?

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

 

[nPeace]

I asked, "Why would that [the ability to call the local Kingdom Hall to get on a no-knock list] be necessary if the religion doesn't proselytize?" I meant why is it necessary for the JW's to offer such an option if they aren't proselytizing, not why it was necessary to choose it.

Oh. You don't understand what I meant by witness. Not Witness, but witness.
And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations,+ and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14
The person also indicates that they do not want to be taught, through this work. Matthew 28:19, 20
It's not proselytizing.

It is something I said. I'm paraphrasing the Witnesses. What they said was some form of a claim that the world was falling apart. Going to hell in a basket is a colorful idiom claiming as much. Here are lyrics from a Grateful Dead song (not one of my favorites) by that name - Hell In A Bucket - about an unhappy couple:

You imagine me sipping champagne from your boot
For taste of your elegant pride
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe
But at least I'm enjoying the ride, at least I'll enjoy the ride.

This world is indeed "falling apart".
I think it requites a special kind of blindness not to see that.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You expect the world to be unified in 179 years when it has been divided for thousands of years?

No, I don't. I don't expect the world to ever be united. The best we can hope for is that most are mutually tolerant. And I don't see any other worldview facilitating that than humanism. The Abrahamic religions embody bigotries, and they provoke one another. Some of your fellow Baha'i have claimed that the world will never come together until it embraces one god, presumably the Abrahamic god. That's exactly wrong. Our best hope is to give up these divisive tribes (and defeat authoritarian regimes), and embrace a worldview promoting reason, democracy, guaranteed individual rights, an opportunity to pursue happiness through economic and social opportunity, and mutual tolerance.

How can the world be unified when the religions do not want to unite?

It can't. From the Affirmations of Humanism: "We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others. We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality. We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings."

Nowhere in the Jewish scripture does it say that the Messiah will do this himself, during his lifetime.
Nowhere in the Jewish scripture does it say how long after the Messiah comes these prophecies will be fulfilled.

If those things haven't happened, you can't justifiably call your prophet or anybody else the messiah. If he doesn't do it in his lifetime, he's not going to be doing it from the grave, so, not the messiah. If somebody else does it later, there's your messiah.

Do you want some more prophecies that have been fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah? I have scads of them, so many that I don't even know where to start.

No need. Religious prophecy isn't persuasive. I've explained what prophecy requires to suggest prescience - specificity and the prediction of something unlikely (there's a little more, but that's enough for present purposes). Scientific prophecy meets that standard, but not religious prophecy.