It's not either/or. Ahadith are considered not is or is not but strong compared to weak. What Are The Different Strengths Of Hadith
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What do you think about Quranists?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
I think that wherever a "revealed" religion draws the line for what does and doesn't count as revelation is going to be at least somewhat arbitrary and hypocritical.
In some cases, it seems to me that the religion just hasn't put a lot of thought into the issue.
In other cases - e.g. Quranist Muslims - it strikes me as very strange that a group of believers would put a lot of thought into where that line ought to be, but not notice any of that hypocrisy involved in setting the line at any given point.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I've never met any such person. In general, I have very little patience with people who don't understand that all religious texts need to be interpreted.
From Hammad ibn Isa who has said the following: “Abu Abd Allah (عليه السلام), one day asked me, ‘Do you know how to perform Salat properly?’ I said, ‘I comply with the book of Hariz regarding Salat.’ The Imam said, ‘Nevermind, O Hammad. Stand up and perform Salat.’
The narrator has said, ‘I then stood up in his presence, facing the direction of Qiblah. I began performing Salat, with Ruku and Sajdah.’ He then said, “O Hammad, you do not know how to perform Salat properly. It is a shame for a man of your people who at the age of sixty or seventy cannot even perform one Salat according to its complete rules and manners.’ Hammad has said, ‘I belittled myself very much at this point. I then asked him saying, “I pray to Allah to keep my soul in service for your cause, teach me how to perform Salat properly.”’
Abu ‘Abd Allah (عليه السلام), stood up straight facing the direction of Qiblah. He allowed his hands to rest on his thighs, with his fingers close side by side, kept his feet near each other, only leaving between them a distance of three fingers opened up, with his toes facing the direction of Qiblah without allowing them to deviate from this direction and with humbleness said, ‘Allah is great.’
He then recited al-Hamd with clarity and fluency and Chapter 112 of the Holy Qur'an. He then paused for a breath while still standing and raised his hands up to the sides of his face and said, ‘Allah is great,’ while still standing. He then bent down for Ruku. He then placed his palms over his knees allowing them to be filled up with his knees that were separate from each other, and pressed them backward until his back became so straightly level that even if there had been a drop of water or oil it would not flow to any side. He stretched his neck forward, lowered his eyes and then said with clarity and fluency three times, ‘I praise my Lord, the Great, Who is free of all defects.’ He then stood up straight. While standing straight he said, ‘Allah hears all those who praise Him.’
He then while standing raised his hands up to the sides of his face and said, ‘Allah is great.’ Then he bowed down for sajdah. He opened his palms with his fingers close side by side, placed them near his knees on the sides next to his face and said, ‘I praise my Lord, the most High who is free of all defects,’ three times. He did not place any other part of his body on any other part thereof. He performed sajdah on eight parts of his bones: his palms, knees, big toes of his feet, his forehead and his nose. He (the Imam) said, ‘Placing seven parts of these bones on the ground is obligatory during sajdah but one of them (the nose) is not obligatory. This is what Allah has spoken of in the Qur'an, “The parts of the body to be placed on the ground during sajdah belong to Allah, you then must not worship anyone other than Allah.” (72:17) Such parts are forehead, palms, knees and big toes of feet. Placing one’s nose on the ground is optional.’ He then raised his head from sajdah. When he sat up straight, he then said, ‘Allah is great.’ He then sat on his left thigh placing the back of his right foot over the sole of his left foot and then said, ‘I seek forgiveness from Allah, my Lord and turn to Him in repentance.’ He then said, ‘Allah is great.’ Then he bowed down for second sajdah, saying therein what he said in the first sajdah. He did not place any other part of his body on any other part during Ruku‘ or sajdah. He spread his elbows and did not place his arms on the ground. In this way, he performed two Rak‘ats of Salat (prayer). He (the Imam) kept the fingers of his hands close side by side when saying the two testimonies in a sitting position. When he finished saying the testimonies, he then read Salam and said, ‘O Hammad, you must perform Salat like this.’”
- Usul al-Kafi - Kitab al-Salat, Ch 20, 8
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Except for the Qur'an. It says several times that God has made it easy to understand. That's a pretty clear statement from Allah his own self that He created a document that needs only to be read/heard to be understood. What else could "so have I made the Qur'an easy" mean?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Oh please. Muslims can't even agree on what jihad means. Some think it means an internal spiritual struggle. Others think it means flying planes into the towers of the infidels.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Jihad means both, and the Qur'an makes that pretty clear - as advertised.
Augustus
…
Their position is that the Quran should only be interpreted with reference to itself, not by reference to hadiths and sirah as these are seen as unreliable and significantly fabricated by later generations.
They do think it needs to be interpreted though, often it can be a 'reformist' and 'modernising' approach by those who see the orthodox traditions are stuck in a past created by the hadiths and sirah. This often requires a high degree of interpretation rather than a shallow, literalist reading of verses in isolation.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
The underlined is a transparent attempt at negating the entire point of the Qur'an. Anyone who has read it objectively will see that it is meant to simply be read and obeyed as presented. We know that because it says so. Several times. I agree that hadiths are not needed to understand the message, which is 'Believe in Allah's (okay, really Mohamed's) message or burn in Hell'.
Augustus
…
We all understand that you think Muslims should employ a shallow literalist reading of verses in isolation, unfortunately when people want to understand an issue it’s best to look at what happens in reality rather than what Sheik Steven thinks should be the case, even though it is not the case now, never has been and doesn’t really make much sense at all given the nature of the text and its historical context.
Thanks for sharing though.
Tamino
Active Member
Yes, that's the issue for me as well. Especially with the Qur'an... I was really disappointed reading it. I thought it would be this beautiful, lyrical, intricate text - how else could millions of people take it for the direct, eternal word of a supreme god? But for me, it just sounded very chaotic and weird and deeply rooted in a specific historical context.
So how and why draw a line between Qur'an and Hadith??
You're actually correct - except, apparently, in your judgement of @stevecanuck .
Unfortunately for us all.
Marwan
*banned*
God is the Greatest, there is no god or deity worthy of worship but God, all praise and glory belongs to God, the Answerer to prayers, the Eternal, the Living, The Truth, to Him we submit, and to Him we shall return.
The Quran could not have come from a human, so I agree with them.
The Quran is inspired by God. Absolutely. Certainly.
That has been revealed and affirmed to me by God Himself in God-Consciousness.
The Quran could not have come from a human, so I agree with them.
The Quran is inspired by God. Absolutely. Certainly.
That has been revealed and affirmed to me by God Himself in God-Consciousness.
Augustus
…
Because one is (purportedly) the uncreated word of God, and the other is a collection of things other people claim Muhammad said and did and are acknowledged to be fallible.
Ever since the beginnings of Islam as a reified confessional identity, people have disputed the best way to understand the Quran, and who gets to establish Islamic doctrine. In a nutshell, the importance of the hadith/sunnah to creating orthodoxy emerged from conflict between the caliph as arbiter and the clerics a few hundred years after Muhammad.
Tamino
Active Member
Yes, I think I just have a problem with that basic premises...
Augustus
…
As do I, but for both those who do or do not accept that premise, it still makes perfect sense to separate the two and view them as different in nature.
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
The Quran was written during prophet Muhammads life. The Hadiths is written down 200 years after prophet Muhammads death. And as @Augustus wrote: Because the Quran is directly the word of God, and the hadiths is a collection of things other people claim Muhammad said and did
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe they are correct.