What do you think God's reasons are for hiding himself?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For so many people, it just seems like God isn't there. What do you think God's reasons are for hiding himself and demanding that people have faith, rather than just give everybody proof, and speak so that the ears can hear?

Are you saying that God is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

God is not hiding - He is everywhere! Just observe and admire all creation around us - nature, the ocean, sunsets and most importantly the loved ones around you. I believe that to love unconditionally and to be loved is experiencing God in every moment of our lives...

Evidence is that which helps one qualified to interpret it decide between competing hypotheses. The world around us has competing explanatory hypotheses, both naturalistic and supernaturalistic. There is nothing about the oceans and sunsets or the human capacity for love that allows us to distinguish between them.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This life is a test which would become null and pointless if GOD made Himself plainly clear to us.

A test of what, and how do we benefit from such a test?

Life is an opportunity, not a test.

If Heaven and Hell were laid out for everyone to see, we would all strive for Heaven.

And that would be worse how?

Faith gives us hope of obtaining salvation, but even if you put all the evidence aside and there really was nothing but darkness after death, I would still have no regrets because:

Praying gives me inner peace and takes away any stresses.
Staying away from intoxicants and things that are harmful for my body means I will hopefully live longer and be healthy.
Fasting cleanses the body of harmful toxins and helps reset the body's system.
In fact all the guidance given is for my own benefit.

Faith causes you to believe that you need salvation. Like cigarettes, religions often create needs that only they can fulfill.

Not all intoxicants are harmful, and not all harmful agents (toxins) are intoxicating. Faith in ancient dietary proscriptions is a poor method for navigating that aspect of life. It doesn't mention heavy metal poisoning or radiation exposure, for example, but recommends avoiding shellfish and pork.

There is no reason to believe that fasting removes harmful toxins. What it does is to cause weight loss and induce a euphoric state via a starvation ketoacidosis: Feeling euphoric on a low-carb diet? The effect on your brain is similar to an illicit drug

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Today most manufactured/created goods come with a manual, whether it be a iphone or printed on the side of canned food. Similarly it would be impossible to fathom, God creating a highly intelligent and complex being like a human and not giving it a manual to navigate through life.

There is no reason to believe that a god would communicate to us using writing and human languages. Evolution chose instincts, emotions, proclivities, and faculties such as reason and the conscience. That's a better method. Instructions should be nonverbal and endogenous in origin. Written language can't compete with that.

You can see the failure of that method in a site like RF, where believers in the same text come to wildly varying conclusions about what the words mean.

 

[Spiderman]

Are you saying that God is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist?

For some people yes... in my personal experience that has not been the case. But I do understand where people are coming from when they say they don't believe because of lack of evidence

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Are you saying that God is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist?

If he isn't, I will:

• "There's no reason, in theory, why god's presence couldn't be measured or detected in some way. The only reason that believers claim that god "can't" be detected in this way is because god *isn't* detected, and so a vast and intricate rationale has to be devised to explain this vast, loving, eternal, all-powerful "something" which is, in every external, objective respect, indistinguishable from nothing." - anon.

• "If there is a God, his plan is very similar to someone not having a plan." - Eddie Izzard"

• When inventing a god the most important thing is to claim it is invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise, people will become skeptical when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing." – anon

That which is indistinguishable from the nonexistent can be treated as if it were nonexistent.

 

[Muslim-UK]

A test of what, and how do we benefit from such a test?

Test of faith in the unseen, belief in the day we return to our Creator etc

Life is an opportunity, not a test.

You can have faith and still make the most out of opportunities this life affords you. Many religious people have thriving businesses and the means to enjoy life and what it has to offer.

And that would be worse how?

Not worse, but would remove the test, a even Atheists as yourself on seeing the Hell Fire would want to obey God, even though it may fill your heart with loathing and resentment.

Faith causes you to believe that you need salvation. Like cigarettes, religions often create needs that only they can fulfill.

Not true as I already explained, the guidance is beneficial for my well being, so even if there was nothing after death, I'd have no regrets.

Not all intoxicants are harmful, and not all harmful agents (toxins) are intoxicating.

Why have the word 'toxic' to label such things if they're good for one's body? GOD says there is some benefit in alcohol, but the harm it can lead to is far greater, therefore stay away from it.
Here we are told small amounts is fine, but who knows when a small drink is enough? Most alcoholics for example never set out to become so.

Faith in ancient dietary proscriptions is a poor method for navigating that aspect of life. It doesn't mention heavy metal poisoning or radiation exposure, for example, but recommends avoiding shellfish and pork.

Islam has no problem with shelfish, but yes pork is forbidden and various studies have shown it's not good for you:

"No matter how you think about it, pigs are rather dirty animals. They’re considered the garbage and waste eliminators of the farm, often eating literally anything they can find. This includes not only bugs, insects and whatever leftover scraps they find laying around, but also their own feces, as well as the dead carcasses of sick animals, including their own young. At least one farmer has gone out to feed his pigs and never returned. On that morning in 2012, he literally became the pig’s breakfast."

Tapeworms, Toxins and More: The Truth about Your Pork


There is no reason to believe that fasting removes harmful toxins. What it does is to cause weight loss and induce a euphoric state via a starvation ketoacidosis: Feeling euphoric on a low-carb diet? The effect on your brain is similar to an illicit drug[/QUOTE]
Can't say I've ever met a Muslim who felt euphoria from fasting. Yes we feel healthier and there is weight loss for some who don't stay up all night eating.

• A number of studies have suggested intermittent fasting has numerous health benefits, including weight loss, lower blood pressure and reduced cholesterol.
• When the body has used up glucose stores during fasting, it burns fat for energy, resulting in weight loss.

Tapeworms, Toxins and More: The Truth about Your Pork

Artificial euphoria leads to the hell fire, whilst a natural sense of happiness and well being from coming closer to GOD is permissible

There is no reason to believe that a god would communicate to us using writing and human languages. Evolution chose instincts, emotions, proclivities, and faculties such as reason and the conscience. That's a better method. Instructions should be nonverbal and endogenous in origin. Written language can't compete with that.

Give an example of something man has created and not given any instructions on its use, unless it be a place of shelter, or bicycle, and even then they start with stabilisers until one learns how to ride without them.

On another thread I explained Evolution does not explain where consciousnesses comes from and can't explain why humans want answers, want to explore, what to push boundaries of learning and understanding etc

You can see the failure of that method in a site like RF, where believers in the same text come to wildly varying conclusions about what the words mean.

Far from it, what this site does is allows people to give their interpretation and understanding, but ultimately it's the use of our GOD given faculties of reasoning and logic which can determine which position is on the truth.

There are atheists that come down to Speakers Corner at Hyde Park, and some seem very knowledgeable, like the following guy who explains origin of man's reasoning and logic:

Well spoken and seemingly intelligent in his discussion with a couple of Christians.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Here's the rather smart Atheist, Rob speaking with a Monotheist who's studied Atheism:

 

[QuestioningMind]

For so many people, it just seems like God isn't there. What do you think God's reasons are for hiding himself and demanding that people have faith, rather than just give everybody proof, and speak so that the ears can hear?

Nobody knows exactly, but you might have some helpful insights from your opinion about the matter.

I think it all comes down to the scripture, "without faith it is impossible to please God"... If we had proof and could hear him clearly, that would deprive us of the ability to have faith... And without it we can't please God.

Then the question is, why is it so important to have faith?

I guess I have to accept that that's just the way God is... Even if it does drive me nuts

Have you ever received a clear message from God?

"For so many people, it just seems like God isn't there. What do you think God's reasons are for hiding himself and demanding that people have faith, rather than just give everybody proof, and speak so that the ears can hear?"

In my opinion if there was an all powerful creator god there would be no reason for it to hide itself and demand that it be worshiped via blind faith, instead of giving proof. That's why I highly doubt that any creator god exists.

"I guess I have to accept that that's just the way God is..."

I beg to differ. You don't have to accept anything that you don't have verifiable evidence for, regardless of what other people may tell you. I'd never be so arrogant as to claim that there absolutely is not a creator god. I can only go by what I have sufficient evidence to believe is true. IF there is a creator god, I'm confident that it wants me to use my logical rational thinking brain to the best of my ability. And that suggests that it doesn't want me to believe in claims without sufficient evidence.

 

[savagewind]

God is not ready to come collect the subjects until God's house is ready to receive them.

 

[Ashley Mathura]

Evidence is that which helps one qualified to interpret it decide between competing hypotheses. The world around us has competing explanatory hypotheses, both naturalistic and supernaturalistic. There is nothing about the oceans and sunsets or the human capacity for love that allows us to distinguish between them.

Divinity most of the time has little logical and scientific reasoning - yet if you really think about it, it was divinity that created science and reasoning...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Yes, Yes, Yesssss, EXACTLY!!! Somewhat like a super high rate of screen refresh. Hey. hey, your personal experience with God is that you are here. There's no belief or understanding requirement, - also no exemptions. God must refresh you continuously for you to exist.

Why call what you are referring to "God"? Why bother anthropomorphizing such a thing? Why give this "God" thing all of the credit when there may well be nothing there? Humility? I could just as easily give all the credit for my survival to a magical, invisible jellyfish and it would have just as much meaning as throwing the label "God" on it.

 

[WalterTrull]

Why call what you are referring to "God"? Why bother anthropomorphizing such a thing?

I used to try not using the word "God". That got silly. I actually don't anthropomorphize God. Many do and I think it just confuses those folks.

 

[McBell]

What do you think God's reasons are for hiding himself?

My first guess is to keep from being judged by those who keep declare "Judge Not!"

 

[David1967]

He is all around us, His signs evident both within ourselves and in Nature and the Cosmos.

This too is why I personally believe in God. To me everything in nature points to a creator.

This life is a test which would become null and pointless if GOD made Himself plainly clear to us.

I agree. Otherwise very little makes sense regarding our life experiences both good and mad. Is this life, like I read it described in a book, a kind of boot camp preparing and maturing us for what comes after? Interesting to contemplate.

Faith gives us hope of obtaining salvation, but even if you put all the evidence aside and there really was nothing but darkness after death, I would still have no regrets because:

Praying gives me inner peace and takes away any stresses.
Staying away from intoxicants and things that are harmful for my body means I will hopefully live longer and be healthy.
Fasting cleanses the body of harmful toxins and helps reset the body's system.
In fact all the guidance given is for my own benefit.

Cant really add anything to that, and I couldn't find the thumbs up emoji, so I'll just say "well said".

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

For so many people, it just seems like God isn't there. What do you think God's reasons are for hiding himself and demanding that people have faith, rather than just give everybody proof, and speak so that the ears can hear?

Nobody knows exactly, but you might have some helpful insights from your opinion about the matter.

I think it all comes down to the scripture, "without faith it is impossible to please God"... If we had proof and could hear him clearly, that would deprive us of the ability to have faith... And without it we can't please God.

Then the question is, why is it so important to have faith?

I guess I have to accept that that's just the way God is... Even if it does drive me nuts

Have you ever received a clear message from God?

God, if It exists, doesn't hide and demand faith. That would teach us to be irrational, which we do a fine job of anyway. God hides so as not to influence our moral choices. If God exists, I assume this is a test for the choices we make.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible is just one world renowned religious themed book among many, but it's certianly not the only one. I'd say the
I -Ching and the Writings of Confucius remains at par with the Bible in renown to mention a couple. Dare I also say the Atlas and the Dictionary, but those books aren't fictional.
And just look at the pantheon of Gods and renowned figures of lore... Christianity may have a well known book, but the ancient pantheon of gods and figures have the very stars, planets, and constellations named after them!
God is firmly silent because he's still peeved over the whole thing.

In Noah's day only Noah and family were considered as righteous ones.
At the soon coming ' time of separation' to take place on Earth at Matthew 25:31-33,37 only humble ' sheep'-like people will be counted as righteous ones. So, quantity of religions is Not necessarily quality in God's eyes.
The international scope of the Bible being translated into people's mother tongues, or native languages, far surpasses any other books religious or secular just as Matthew 24:14 and Acts of the Apostles 1:8 mentions the grand scope.

As far as stars, planets, constellations being named by humans, please notice who named Earth at Genesis 1:10.
Also of interest are the verses at Job 38:31-33; Amos 5:8.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I've been thinking a lot lately on the state of living beings on Earth. One thing they all have in common is that they require constant REFRESH in order to go on living..............
So, my question would be, with there being so very many people who don't have personal experiences with God, if God truly wants a relationship with those people as some theologies would claim, then why does God feel that He is exempt from this idea of "refreshment?" In those cases, why would He ever be surprised that those people forget about or even deny Him entirely? He designed the world (again, according to some of those same theologies that say He desires a relationship with us), designed our minds. The way we function is something He supposedly understands intimately. And yet He ignores this simple idea in many, many cases... providing no refreshment of His existence to a great many people. I have no good answer for it... and from what I have seen/heard/witnessed neither do any of His followers - people He supposedly uses as the instruments to "spread the word." And if one were to say that these people ARE intended to be that refreshment... well, my only reply could be the truth - that I do not at all find their entreaties to be "refreshing".

In a physical sense I find we all require constant REFRESH.....and that is also true in a spiritual sense.
As 2 Corinthians 4:16 mentions we can be REFRESHED or RENEWED day by day.
Refreshed or renewed through daily prayer (Luke 11:13B), the pages of the Bible (Psalms 119:105), and through good associations with others.
Even the polluted Earth when left alone bounces back or renews and refreshes itself.
What is Not refreshing about Daniel 2:44 that through God's kingdom government mankind will be refreshed.
Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill - Isaiah 11:3-4.
What is Not refreshing about Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 that Jesus will relieve mankind of distresses.
Then, refreshed Earth will be as described at Isaiah 35.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Today most manufactured/created goods come with a manual, whether it be a iphone or printed on the side of canned food. Similarly it would be impossible to fathom, God creating a highly intelligent and complex being like a human and not giving it a manual to navigate through life.

Good point as Psalms 119:105 shows Scripture is God's instruction manual or guide book for mankind.
Scripture I find is a 'light' (flashlight) to our immediate steps and a 'lamp' (high beams) to our roadway ahead of us.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

In a physical sense I find we all require constant REFRESH.....and that is also true in a spiritual sense.
As 2 Corinthians 4:16 mentions we can be REFRESHED or RENEWED day by day.
Refreshed or renewed through daily prayer (Luke 11:13B), the pages of the Bible (Psalms 119:105), and through good associations with others.
Even the polluted Earth when left alone bounces back or renews and refreshes itself.
What is Not refreshing about Daniel 2:44 that through God's kingdom government mankind will be refreshed.
Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill - Isaiah 11:3-4.
What is Not refreshing about Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 that Jesus will relieve mankind of distresses.
Then, refreshed Earth will be as described at Isaiah 35.

What is not refreshing about those things is that there are absolutely no guarantees. As a form of evidence I would offer all of the predictions about the end of the world that have come and gone, or all of the times people were so sure that all of these sorts of prophecies would be brought to culmination during their life-times... but, of course, they died. The pattern of non-completion (or else "completion" only by means of amazing stretches of the imagination) of these kinds of wild prophecies is so ridiculously compelling that it is a bafflement why anyone would keep rehashing these things with even an ounce of confidence. And yet here you are...