Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That he isn't an Apostle.
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What do you think of Paul the Apostle?
- Thread starter Starlight
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Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Excellent essay. I've read similar if not this exact before, and I have bookmarked this to read more thoroughly. The history and culture of the times is of great importance.I get the following from the Jewish Encyclopedia about Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the self-acclaimed/and or unauthorized/fake Apostle of (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people), please, right?:
Right?SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.www.jewishencyclopedia.com
Regards
Ajax
Active Member
Very briefly, Paul is probably the worst character in the NT, bar none. He was a pathological liar as he admitted in Rom 3:7, and also claimed he was not lying when others blamed him (1 Tim 2:7, Rom 9;1, 2 Cor 11:31, Galatians 1:20).
He never met and was never taught by Jesus. Perhaps he thought so when he was frequently put into a state of ecstasy, due to his epilepsy. All his limited knowledge came from the disciples in several days and immediately started preaching (Acts 9:19-21). And he had the audacity to curse the people who taught him. All he cared was how to convert as many people, by any means.
Extremely vague on purpose, he offered different types of salvation, depending on whom he was addressing. By works, by faith alone and predetermined. Most of his companions abandoned him.
I believe that the Johannine community, who probably wrote the Revelation (John supposedly established the first Christian community in Ephesus) had Paul in mind when they wrote in Rev 2:1-2 " To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: .....I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false".
Compare the above with his epistles to Timothy who was in Ephesus....1 Tim 2:7 (For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle, I am telling the truth, I am not lying) and 2 Tim 1:15 (You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes).
He never met and was never taught by Jesus. Perhaps he thought so when he was frequently put into a state of ecstasy, due to his epilepsy. All his limited knowledge came from the disciples in several days and immediately started preaching (Acts 9:19-21). And he had the audacity to curse the people who taught him. All he cared was how to convert as many people, by any means.
Extremely vague on purpose, he offered different types of salvation, depending on whom he was addressing. By works, by faith alone and predetermined. Most of his companions abandoned him.
I believe that the Johannine community, who probably wrote the Revelation (John supposedly established the first Christian community in Ephesus) had Paul in mind when they wrote in Rev 2:1-2 " To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: .....I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false".
Compare the above with his epistles to Timothy who was in Ephesus....1 Tim 2:7 (For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle, I am telling the truth, I am not lying) and 2 Tim 1:15 (You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes).
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
One's post is very good , I like it.
Just to add that Saul of Tarsus aka Paul never "converted" to the religion that (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people), followed ,please, right?
Paul was a Hellenist and remained as such even after, as I understand, he faked a vision, rather he converted Yeshua's simple minded followers to Hellenism (of dying, rising god)*, please, right?
Dying-and-rising deity - Wikipedia
DRG : Dying and rising gods
Regards
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think he created a new religion, and that Jesus is rolling over in his grave for him having done this, especially his suggestion that Jesus was divine, and that many of the laws were "optional."
IsraelMoses
Member
"Honor the Apostles, Follow Jesus." is what I was given, concerning the Apostle Paul and as God said, at another time, "He gave his life."
Many derogatory things said about the man who did many things to promote the Gospel of Jesus.
Many derogatory things said about the man who did many things to promote the Gospel of Jesus.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I agree with @paarsurrey . You need to link us to whatever this "Gospel of Jesus" is.
I suspect you may be referring to the Gospel of Thomas, which is a collections of sayings he attributes to Jesus. (I know that the fictitious movie Stigmata refers to the Gospel of Thomas incorrectly as the Gospel of Jesus.) If that's the case, that you are referring to this Gospel of Thomas, please affirm.
IsraelMoses
Member
Honor the Apostles, Follow Jesus, in other words, the Apostles had issues among themselves in their understanding, so don't allow any side tracking
from the way you perceive with prayer first that the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost
will do the guiding in the understanding. The first church I joined, after being out, since high school days, they had a woman piano player who said that she
was called to preach. She said they allowed her to play, but when she told them she had a calling, they gave her a cold shoulder. I asked the head deacon
why can't women preach ? He said, not biblical. I went to researching, didn't take much and came upon Deborah, the Prophetess' story, in the Older Testament. God led me to another church 25 miles or so away, because the Baptist church didn't line up with the gospel, no Gifts of the Holy Spirit, evidenced ? I had spoke to another lady, a senior that wouldn't it be something if God would call the deacons daughters to preach ? A lady I worked with said the Non-Denominational church did all that, allowed all that ? So, I visited 2 years later and There were 7 or so women ministers and 2 men ministers sitting behind the pulpit area. Love teaches to not focus on the faults, but on the positives and forgive. Apostle Paul has been named Homo,
AntiChrist, etc. What does that tell you about the people, who sized up a man
who was attacked by his own people and had to prove himself by the people
he tried to convert. His over zealousness, like with any other human being was subject to errors. Don't forget. I found out from research that the scholars and
those that wrote the Holy Bible, also were subject to their own interpretation.
God allowed, for those that seek, will find. He dwells within each living soul.
from the way you perceive with prayer first that the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost
will do the guiding in the understanding. The first church I joined, after being out, since high school days, they had a woman piano player who said that she
was called to preach. She said they allowed her to play, but when she told them she had a calling, they gave her a cold shoulder. I asked the head deacon
why can't women preach ? He said, not biblical. I went to researching, didn't take much and came upon Deborah, the Prophetess' story, in the Older Testament. God led me to another church 25 miles or so away, because the Baptist church didn't line up with the gospel, no Gifts of the Holy Spirit, evidenced ? I had spoke to another lady, a senior that wouldn't it be something if God would call the deacons daughters to preach ? A lady I worked with said the Non-Denominational church did all that, allowed all that ? So, I visited 2 years later and There were 7 or so women ministers and 2 men ministers sitting behind the pulpit area. Love teaches to not focus on the faults, but on the positives and forgive. Apostle Paul has been named Homo,
AntiChrist, etc. What does that tell you about the people, who sized up a man
who was attacked by his own people and had to prove himself by the people
he tried to convert. His over zealousness, like with any other human being was subject to errors. Don't forget. I found out from research that the scholars and
those that wrote the Holy Bible, also were subject to their own interpretation.
God allowed, for those that seek, will find. He dwells within each living soul.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
IsraelMoses said:
"Honor the Apostles, Follow Jesus." is what I was given, concerning the Apostle Paul and as God said, at another time, "He gave his life."
Many derogatory things said about the man who did many things to promote the Gospel of Jesus.
Me and @IndigoChild5559 are waiting for the link to be sent by one, right, please?
Regards
"Honor the Apostles, Follow Jesus." is what I was given, concerning the Apostle Paul and as God said, at another time, "He gave his life."
Many derogatory things said about the man who did many things to promote the Gospel of Jesus.
Where is the " Gospel of Jesus " that Saul of Tarsus aka Paul- the self appointed/dubious, as I understand, Saul followed, please, right?
Me and @IndigoChild5559 are waiting for the link to be sent by one, right, please?
Regards
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
When Paul spoke of the "gospel" aka good news of Jesus, that is not the same thing as a book. I realize that "gospel" also refers to books written about the life of Jesus. But you have look at the context of the remark to know which meaning of "gospel" is being used.
It's like the word bat. It can be a flying mammal, or it can be a stick you hit a ball with. You know from CONTEXT which meaning is being used.
So, understanding that "gospel" means "good news," take care to understand WHICH of the two usages are being employed by the poster.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
When Paul spoke of the "gospel" aka good news of Jesus, that is not the same thing as a book. I realize that "gospel" also refers to books written about the life of Jesus. But you have look at the context of the remark to know which meaning of "gospel" is being used.
It's like the word bat. It can be a flying mammal, or it can be a stick you hit a ball with. You know from CONTEXT which meaning is being used.
So, understanding that "gospel" means "good news," take care to understand WHICH of the two usages are being employed by the poster.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
When Paul spoke of the "gospel" aka good news of Jesus, that is not the same thing as a book. I realize that "gospel" also refers to books written about the life of Jesus. But you have look at the context of the remark to know which meaning of "gospel" is being used.
It's like the word bat. It can be a flying mammal, or it can be a stick you hit a ball with. You know from CONTEXT which meaning is being used.
So, understanding that "gospel" means "good news," take care to understand WHICH of the two usages are being employed by the poster.
I have not tried reading without Paul, however each of Paul's letters (not books) must be considered separately for the reason that he is likely composed by multiple authors. He's not here to defend himself, and many attack him without openly attacking Jesus. He is fair game to comment about anything one doesn't like about Christianity.
Paul's views on resurrection are often taken without any depth and the situation he's in gets ignored. The biggest objections to Paul are some of his comments about replacing Judaism, however you must keep in mind that when he writes the temple is probably already torn apart and Jerusalem (city of peace) massacred. Massacred! Wiped out! The hope of Judaism lies in question. To Paul it may indeed appear that Judaism has failed, and Paul is talking about it coming back in a new form, resurrected. Thus it pays to take with nuance his discussions of resurrection, but many people refuse to do that. They must have their trip to the afterlife at any cost; but I do not care about the afterlife. I care about people who are alive now, as most likely does Paul.
In this Paul is not alone, because the gospels also talk about replacing Judaism. This is a smoking clue that the temple has already been destroyed at the time they are written, despite all objections and dates. Why would anyone discuss replacing it if it appeared intact? No, they would repair it. They would repair the broken reed. "A bruised reed he will not break..." (Isaiah 42:3)
His argument (to replace Judaism) in Galatians does not make sense to me, however his argument in Romans is easier to follow though it is figurative rather than concrete. In it he recognizes the value of the circumcised and does not dismiss him. He says there is much value to being circumcised (and all that it entails). Does he perceive that the Christians will have competition from Judaism? Its an interesting side question to consider when reading each of his letters separately. Separately, not as if all written by one person. Each letter needs separate consideration in order to find out (each) Paul's position on this issue.
Depending up which letters you read he seems to contradict himself. This is probably evidence that he is multiple authors.
Paul is the only connection that most of us will ever have to the culture of the early Christians. Therefore in spite of the difficulty in reading him and the seeming contradictions with himself, he remains irreplaceable. For example he discusses divorce from the law in Romans 7. Obviously you cannot divorce the law unless you are married to it, so he hints at something we don't know about. There are no other NT verses about marrying the law. Did people in those days marry the law? I don't know, but without Paul I never would have even heard of the concept. He uses language that is unfamiliar and does so all the time. He provides many clues, links that other authors cannot replace.
Paul appears as a character in Acts, farther cementing him into the canon. If you toss Paul you must also toss the gospels for the same reasons as him, Acts (because he is in it), Revelation (since its written by John) and probably Hebrews. You are left with very little canon at all. The best thing to do is to examine each of his letters critically.
I don't think so, because
I don't believe in this other doctrine either: "
Paul letters are much more than just a few letters written by a man. They are part of what God gave to Christians in our days to know the truth about what we need to know to get salvation exactly the way he gave the Hebrew Scriptures to Israel before.
True Christianity is not just a way of being or style of life, but following a path in unity with others, where one God, the same Lord, one faith and hope, are shared... True knowledge is shared, about the state of the dead, about the future, about the resurrection, about the kingdom of Christ,...
All of this is not possible with a simple "
Reproaching God for choosing Paul is a lack of respect for the holy spirit.
Disagreeing with another person isn't the same as slandering them or disrespecting them.
[Rom 3:1-2 NIV] 1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
[1Co 7:18-19 NIV] 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.
Related is that this verse 19 about circumcision is saying that its not what you know but how you live, a specifically Christian claim.
What's wrong with investigating Paul's claims? Right in the canon in Acts I am told this is the noble thing to do.
[Act 17:11 NIV] 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
According to Acts in the canon, where I am specifically told to test whatever Paul says.
If Peter teaches anything against Moses then I have to put those words of Peter's on hold. I can't put Peter above Moses, because it is inappropriate to do that. Peter must comply with Moses not Moses with Peter. The same goes for Paul. If Christians aren't circumcised then there has to be reasoning which explains why we are not doing so. We cannot simply dismiss Moses because Peter or Paul says something else. Moses has precedent. He's definitely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and so Peter and Paul must comply with him not the other way around. Therefore simply taking Peter or Paul at their word seems insufficient, and its necessary to learn how they comply with Moses or not. Moses is prior and is not abolished, canceled or unnecessary. I'm not going to say that Peter or Paul should be ignored, but they must be understood and checked and tested and must comply with previous scripture. That's on the Christian.
In the traditional churches it is on the priests, and laypeople don't have to wrestle with such questions. Such things were done away by the protestants. It falls to me to deal with the naked Sun myself. I can and must question Peter and Paul and "Taste and see" whether the LORD he is good.
If memory serves The Holy Bible does not reveal a great deal about Paul prior to becoming a follower of Christ. If i am not mistaken paul was a learned man in Judaism and did hold Roman citizenship, other than that I can't say there is much else if anything else on Paul prior to his Baptism in Christ. Yes I did like Paul.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
He was a persecuter of the Way. Read in Acts his part in the stoning of Stephen.