What do you think of Purgatory?

[URAVIP2ME]

On this website it says purgatory might be real: Soul Sleep Heb.11 has the hall of the faithful who died Heb 12:1 tells us we are surrounded by a great crowd of witnesses. What kind of witnesses are these? Living ones who went before us. V.23 “to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.” (the word for witnesses means those who are able to testify which certainly mean living ones).

Yes, in God's 'Hall of Fame' we find those faithful ones listed in Hebrews chapter 11:13,39.
They are still asleep in the grave ( Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14 )
That is why Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
Resurrection Day is Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
The 'us' found in Hebrews chapter 12 are like the people found at Luke 22:28-30.
They are the saints or holy ones of Daniel 7:18 who will govern over Earth with Christ in Heaven - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10
ALL who died before Jesus' died (John 3:13) have the resurrection hope to come back to live life on Earth.
This includes people like John the Baptist - Matthew 11:11- and King David - Acts 2:34

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How does that make any difference?
Bowing is not always worship. In Japan, people bow when they meet each other. I used to do Kung Fu, and bowed out of respect to my Sifu. You see, it means different things to different cultures. I don't expect people of other cultures to have my Jewish traditions.

Yes, good point above because doing obeisance is Not worship.
Whereas, bowing down in worship in front of a man-made object is Not biblical.
Since Jesus said he is the 'way' then 'yes' we should Not expect people of other cultures do the same unless they choose to become a follower of Jesus and abandon what is outside of his teachings.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If you go into many churches, you will see a life-size statue of Jesus on a cross.

What does that have to do with your strange unrelated remark that some people think all sins are equal?

I consider it a sin to make graven images of Holy people (or G-d, as some people might believe).
..and many Christians bow to it, as they walk past etc.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I gave mine, and I gave some pretty good reasons why. You, interestingly enough, chose NOT to respond to my points, as if by ignoring them, they disappear.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What does that have to do with your strange unrelated remark that some people think all sins are equal?

It was you who first pointed it out..

You are certainly entitled to your opinion..

Thankyou.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It was you who first pointed it out..

And how far back do you have to go to find that?

Conversations, if they are to make sense, happen in a certain order. I say A, you reply to A with B, to which I respond to B with C, and so on. You don't quote C and then respond to A. It drives people nuts.

 

[Estro Felino]

Since death is the total complete price to be paid for sin - Romans 6:7 - then one does Not have to ask to be purified from sin.
Thus, No double jeopardy to be paid after death, No post-mortem penalties in the grave.
In Psalm 51 we find David is alive, and like the rest of us we were born with human imperfection from father Adam.
Yes, the wilfully wicked will Not repent.
Dead Jesus was Not a lost soul while in hell - Acts 2:27
Biblical hell is: the temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead as Jesus and the OT both teach.
- Psalm 6:5; Psalm 13:3; Psalm 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
Since the Bible teaches ' resurrection ' (John 6:40,44) that is the opposite of 'afterlife' ( being more alive after death ).
Yes, 'in the end' it's all about good or evil, love or hatred - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
The righteous need to remain righteous, and the unrighteous need to become righteous - Acts 24:15
The figurative living 'sheep' at Jesus' soon coming Glory Time of separation for the living - Matthew 25:31-34,37 - need to remain righteous in order to gain everlasting life on Earth to be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5 from Psalm 37:9-11; Psalm 22:26

Are you saying that murder is the same thing as gluttony?

 

[InChrist]

Very interesting view, thank you.
Do you mind me asking on question?
Do you think all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord?

I can’t remember if I ever answered this question. While I consider all sins to be transgressions, I think that there are different degrees of sin in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[Muffled]

True, heavenly paradise is in heaven, and Jesus instructed us to pray that God's will (God's purpose) be done here on Earth as it is done in Heaven.
So, yes we are praying for heavenly conditions to come and exist on Earth just as they exist in heaven.
In heaven there is No crime, No violence, No war, No pollution, No sickness nor any death in heaven ( No body goes to heaven to die in heaven, No tombs in heaven ) we are asking those healthy conditions to come exist on Earth.
Please notice where Jesus brings ' healing ' Not to heaven but to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

Jesus did Not go to heaven the day he died. Jesus went to the grave /hell the day he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
So, the un-baptised robber was Not promised heaven the day he died, rather Jesus told him truly I tell you today ( comma ) you will be ( future tense ) with me ( Not in heaven, but in an earthly paradise )
To qualify for heaven one must be baptised and be like the ones mentioned at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18

I believe heaven is not Heaven. Heaven is in heaven.

I believe it would be earthly but not on this world. I believe the paradise Jesus spoke of is in heaven.

I believe that is false. I believe you mean Heaven and there is no qualification. No doubt God will judge whether a person should go there but He never mentions any qualifications.

 

[Muffled]

..which is contrary to what you are saying in another thread .. claiming that there is only one gate to heaven (paradise).

I believe Jesus is the gate which means that God is the gate but that gate does not necessarily exist as an entrance to Heaven. I do not believe Heaven is a paradise because it does not have earthly pleasures.

 

[Muffled]

Just because Christians believe something to be so, doesn't make it so.

I believe this is due to variable definitions of eternal. One definition is for all time another is without time. I believe the latter is true. It isn't that time doesn't exist on earth but simply that the body is not subject to it but there is no time in Hell because there are no heavenly bodies wherewith to measure it.

 

[metis]

So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

When I get out of it, I'll let you know.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Are you saying that murder is the same thing as gluttony?

In Scripture sin is either: deliberate or not, on purpose or not, intentional or not, premeditated or not......
The wages ( total complete asking price that sin pays in full is: death - Romans 6:7 )
ALL have the opportunity to 'repent ' if one does Not want to 'perish' - 2nd Peter 3:9
Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law for ancient Israel the punishment was to fit or equal the crime.
King David was even forgiven of murder because of repenting.
That did Not make him innocent and it did bring him consequences for his wrongdoings.
In Scripture, there is also what is called as the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32; Luke 12:10
Unlike David those people do Not repent, but many of mankind are considered as righteous or unrighteous.
They can repent, only the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 134:20; Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe this is due to variable definitions of eternal. One definition is for all time another is without time. I believe the latter is true. It isn't that time doesn't exist on earth but simply that the body is not subject to it but there is no time in Hell because there are no heavenly bodies wherewith to measure it.

Interesting to say eternal to be ' all time ' / ' without time '
Since eternity is in our hearts because for each second we can count we can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever.
Plus, since 'Earth abides forever' - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalm 104:5 - then to me Earth time will also exist forever.
That's a reason why Jesus could say humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matt. 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe Jesus is the gate which means that God is the gate but that gate does not necessarily exist as an entrance to Heaven. I do not believe Heaven is a paradise because it does not have earthly pleasures.

Yes, the disobedient angels of Noah's day had to put on materialized earthly bodies to mate with earth's women.
The paradisical Garden of Eden did have earthly pleasures for material/physical creation.
Since Jesus asked us to pray for God's Will (His purpose) to be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven.....
When we think of Heaven there is: No crime in Heaven, No violence, No war, No sickness and No death in Heaven.
Those bad conditions exist now on Earth, but when God's Will/Purpose is done on Earth as it is done in Heaven, then we will have those same healthy paradisical heavenly conditions to come and exist on Earth.
Paradisical conditions such as: No war on Earth - Psalm 46:9; No more death on Earth - 1st Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I can’t remember if I ever answered this question. While I consider all sins to be transgressions, I think that there are different degrees of sin in the eyes of the Lord.

Degrees in serious as judges and juries conclude but in a nut shell sin is either:
Deliberate or not, accidental or not, premeditated or not, on purpose or not, planned or not......

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In Scripture sin is either: deliberate or not, on purpose or not, intentional or not, premeditated or not......
The wages ( total complete asking price that sin pays in full is: death - Romans 6:7 )
ALL have the opportunity to 'repent ' if one does Not want to 'perish' - 2nd Peter 3:9
Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law for ancient Israel the punishment was to fit or equal the crime.
King David was even forgiven of murder because of repenting.
That did Not make him innocent and it did bring him consequences for his wrongdoings.
In Scripture, there is also what is called as the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32; Luke 12:10
Unlike David those people do Not repent, but many of mankind are considered as righteous or unrighteous.
They can repent, only the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 134:20; Proverbs 2:21-22

That same Bible ALSO prescribes different penalties for different sins. Some sins get the death penalty. Some get only a fine. Some have no penalty at all. So the Bible certainly does not TREAT all sins the same.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That same Bible ALSO prescribes different penalties for different sins. Some sins get the death penalty. Some get only a fine. Some have no penalty at all. So the Bible certainly does not TREAT all sins the same.

Right, the person was brought before the judges and the accusing ones were to participate if the death penalty was involved. Exodus 21; Leviticus 25
Nevertheless, sin is either on purpose or not.
That is a reason why the Cities of Refuge were set up.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe heaven is not Heaven. Heaven is in heaven.
I believe it would be earthly but not on this world. I believe the paradise Jesus spoke of is in heaven.
I believe that is false. I believe you mean Heaven and there is no qualification. No doubt God will judge whether a person should go there but He never mentions any qualifications.

Qualifications -> Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 2:10-11; Revelation 20:4; 2nd Timothy 4:7-8; James 1:12
The 'sheep' of Matthew 25:37 are Not the ' brothers' of Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 6:10
The 'saints or holy ones' of Daniel 7:18 are Not the 'sheep' nor those of Acts 24:15
The 'saints/holy ones' have a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6 - over those of Acts 24:15

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Right, the person was brought before the judges and the accusing ones were to participate if the death penalty was involved. Exodus 21; Leviticus 25
Nevertheless, sin is either on purpose or not.
That is a reason why the Cities of Refuge were set up.

The question was not whether there are all different kinds of sins. The question was whether all sins are equal. Clearly they are not.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The question was not whether there are all different kinds of sins. The question was whether all sins are equal. Clearly they are not.

Right, clearly all sins are Not equal which includes sins that happen by accident or on purpose.
But all sins end with the same sentence: death - Romans 3:23; 6:7; 5:12
For some it's perpetual death ( No resurrection hope ) - Jeremiah 51:39,57
No everlasting life for the wicked because the wicked are 'destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Prov. 2:21-22