What do you think of Purgatory?

[Muffled]

I'm non-christian, and I think of any form of post-mortem punishment by a creator type God that makes us a certain way and places us in a certain environment then punishes us for being the way we are made is ridiculous and unjust.

In my opinion.

I believe God is the wisest person that can be and is always just.

 

[Muffled]

So you die and are going to heaven but you are not quite ready. Through prayer from living people you get that extra "purification" needed and then you are good.
Grown people actually sat around and came up with this stuff and other people bought it?

nglican Bishop John Henry Hobart (1775–1830) wrote that "Hades, or the place of the dead, is represented as a spacious receptacle with gates, through which the dead enter."[116] The Anglican Catechist of 1855 elaborated on Hades, stating that it "is an intermediate state between death and the resurrection, in which the soul does not sleep in unconsciousness, but exists in happiness or misery till the resurrection, when it shall be reunited to the body and receive its final reward."[117] This intermediate state includes both Paradise and Gehenna, "but with an impassable gulf between the two".[16] Souls remain in Hades until the Final Judgment and "Christians may also improve in holiness after death during the middle state before the final judgment."[118]

This sounds like a story in a Silver Surfer comic. The final judgment is a total rip-off of Persian theology as well. How do they get away with this?

I believe imagination runs wild.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Soul must be purged, cleansed, sanctified before it can have a life in Paradise! Nothing impure can enter heaven!

Mmm .. I believe that too. It is also logical.
How could it be "paradise", if it consists of unrepentant, impure human beings?

..and Almighty God knows best.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..In a sense Hell is a purgatory as well.

Yes, I believe that too ..

Some people will go directly to paradise.
some people will be in hell, but some time later will be removed.
..and then some, like satan, will be in hell forever.

I don't know how long "forever" is, and wouldn't want to find out.

 

[danieldemol]

I believe God is the wisest person that can be and is always just.

I'm sure you would have said similar if you had been born into the religion of Huitzilopochtli.

In my opinion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry, I don't think there is unintentional sin that was not done on purpose.
Also, I don't think the unrighteous have chance anymore at the resurrection. They are resurrected to their judgment.
and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
John 5:29 It is too late then, and I don't think they would even want to change.

The majority of mankind lived and died without knowing about Jesus.
They will have a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15 <- notice the future tense is used.
AFTER they are resurrected is when the majority of mankind will have the opportunity then to learn about Jesus.
Then, those who have done good to a resurrection of life - a favorable judgement.
The unrighteous who choose to remain unrighteous to an adverse judgement.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, I believe that too ..
Some people will go directly to paradise.
some people will be in hell, but some time later will be removed.
..and then some, like satan, will be in hell forever.
I don't know how long "forever" is, and wouldn't want to find out.

in a sense, the living humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-34,37 go directly to paradise (paradisical earth like Eden)
Everyone in biblical hell exits biblical hell according to Revelation 20:13-14
After biblical hell is emptied out ( those in biblical hell are ' delivered up ' aka resurrected out of hell/ grave ) then vacated biblical hell ends us in ' second death '
( the definition of the lake of fire is 'second death' for emptied-out hell/grave)
Sinner Satan was never in any hell, but Satan will end up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
ALL the wicked are 'destroyed forever' ( Satan is wicked ) - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I did not say that Hell exists in the afterlife.
I said that hell is not a geographical location, but it exists as a state of the soul in the afterlife.
People make their own Hell by rejecting God and favoring earthly pleasures, God does not send them to Hell.

Yes, the afterlife can be pretty awful for some human spirits that don't cross over and for those that return to the physical world from the spirit world. According to my knowledge and experience as a medium, the experience of a spirit is primarily determined by them and can be either negative or positive, which includes how they react to death and even what kind of person they were while alive. All my years of experience interacting with spirits have shown me that a person's personality in this life can carry over into their afterlife.

Personally, I don't believe that hell (or heaven) is a geographical location either. In fact, I no longer believe in the biblical accounts of heaven or hell or what the Bible claims about the afterlife and what will happen to people after they die. To be honest, I've witnessed and experienced far too many paranormal events that run counter to what the Bible claims about the afterlife and death for me to continue hanging onto such beliefs. And I came to that realization when I was still a Christian, but it took me a long time to overcome all the indoctrination I had been subjected to, admit to myself that I had doubts, and accept that what I experienced as a medium was contrary to what I had been taught as a Christian. I've shared my experiences with you before in other posts and in private messages.

 

[Kenny]

Kenny Good question...
It applies this way! The Soul must be purged, cleansed, sanctified before it can have a life in Paradise! Nothing impure can enter heaven!

Ok. That basically eliminated the whole race.

Got it.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to my knowledge and experience as a medium, the experience of a spirit is primarily determined by them and can be either negative or positive, which includes how they react to death and even what kind of person they were while alive. All my years of experience interacting with spirits have shown me that a person's personality in this life can carry over into their afterlife.

As a Baha'i, that is exactly what I believe, that a person's personality in this life carries over into their afterlife.
The soul is the personality that continues to exist forever in the afterlife and that is precisely why it is so important to develop our character in this life.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ok. That basically eliminated the whole race.

Errr .. I don't think that is what he means.

I suppose we will all have to wait and see..
..meanwhile, good deeds annul bad deeds.

 

[Kenny]

Errr .. I don't think that is what he means.

I suppose we will all have to wait and see..
..meanwhile, good deeds annul bad deeds.

Not in our book.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Proper English pronunciation: pur-GAE'-ory

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not in our book.

What's not in your book?
That good deeds annul bad deeds?

Don't our deeds matter in "your book" ?

 

[Kenny]

What's not in your book?
That good deeds annul bad deeds?

Don't our deeds matter in "your book" ?

Yes... good deeds don't annul bad deeds for God although you should do good deeds. The standard for good works in just the first 10 commandments showed us we couldn't do the good that God needs.

So He gave grace...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes... good deeds don't annul bad deeds for God although you should do good deeds..

Yes, exactly, you should do good deeds.
What happens, in "your book", if a person only does bad deeds?

The standard for good works in just the first 10 commandments showed us we couldn't do the good that God needs.

So He gave grace...

I would agree that we all fall short, and depend on God's Mercy.
Nevertheless, if one believes that our deeds are irrelevant, then why is it reported that Jesus said that some people will go to hell?

 

[joelr]

I believe imagination runs wild.

Probably. They encountered the Persian story as well in 5 BCE
Revelations


but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which

there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).

The 2 religions were similar, or Zoroastrainism was similar to what Christianity would be

Doctrines



fundamental doctrines became disseminated throughout the region, from Egypt to the Black Sea: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.

Mary Boyce,
Zoroastrians-Their-Religious-Beliefs-and-Practice

 

[joelr]

The majority of mankind lived and died without knowing about Jesus.
They will have a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15 <- notice the future tense is used.
AFTER they are resurrected is when the majority of mankind will have the opportunity then to learn about Jesus.
Then, those who have done good to a resurrection of life - a favorable judgement.
The unrighteous who choose to remain unrighteous to an adverse judgement.

The Israelites got that from the Persians, Cyrus is even mentioned in scripture. He is the Persian emissary and allowed the Kings to return from exile.

: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.




1st Persian influence on Judaism

Cyrus' actions were, moreover, those of a loyal Mazda-worshipper, in that he sought to govern his vast new empire justly and well, in accordance with asha. He made no attempt, however, to impose the Iranian religion on his alien subjects - indeed it would have been wholly impractical to attempt it, in view of their numbers, and the antiquity of their own faiths - but rather encouraged them to live orderly and devout lives according to their own tenets. Among the many anarya who experienced his statesmanlike kindness were the Jews, whom he permitted to return from exile in Babylon and to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. This was only one of many liberal acts recorded of Cyrus, but it was of particular moment for the religious history of mankind; for the Jews entertained warm feelings thereafter for the Persians, and

this made them the more receptive to Zoroastrian influences. Cyrus • himself is hailed by 'Second Isaiah' (a nameless prophet of the Exilic period) as a messiah, that is, one who acted in Yahweh's name and with his authority. 'Behold my servant whom I uphold' (Yahweh himself is represented as saying). '(Cyrus) will bring forth justice to the nations. . . . He will not fail . . . till he has established justice in the earth' (Isaiah 42. I, 4). The same prophet celebrates Yahweh for the first time in Jewish literature as Creator, as Ahura Mazda had been celebrated by Zoroaster: 'I, Yahweh, who created all things ... I made the earth, and created man on it .... Let the skies rain down justice ... I, Yahweh, have created it' (Isaiah 44.24, 45. 8, 12). The parallels with Zoroastrian doctrine and scripture are so striking that these verses have been taken to represent the first imprint of that influence which Zoroastrianism was to exert so powerfully on postExilic Judaism.

 

[dfnj]

This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

Purgatory - Wikipedia

You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.

How bad can it be? It can't be worse than living in New Jersey.

 

[Dogknox20]

Mmm .. I believe that too. It is also logical.
How could it be "paradise", if it consists of unrepentant, impure human beings?

..and Almighty God knows best.

muhammad_isa I hope all is well...
I reply: There are people who teach you cannot pray for the dead because there is only Gehenna (Hell) or Heaven (Paradise) the soul will be in one or the other! If in heaven, there is no need to pray for the soul of the dead. If in hell it would be too late to pray for the soul!
The Catholic (Christian) believes that God lives outside of time and prayers always arrive at God on time! Also... Our scriptures teach prayers for the dead are a good!

Protestant (Protestors) who reject prayers for the dead; might care for their children with love then when a child dies, they do nothing for the soul refusing to do the most important thing that they could do, that is help the soul arrive in heaven!