What do you want to know about LDS beliefs?

[i believe in tranquility]

ok but why did mormons claim that GOD said that blacks were worthy by 1978?

 

[dan]

It seems odd that g-d found them unworthy to lead his flock in worship
until after the rise of the civil rights movement...

None of you are listening.

1 - No one said God found them unworthy. That is something you've made up and pawned off as what we teach. You have no right to do so. God just said they weren't to have it.

2 - I've noticed none of you will address the fact that God apparently finds every woman on the planet unworthy to hold the priesthood as well; especially the orthodox Jews in the crowd. Not sayin' a whole lot about that are you? You just pass right over the fact that your God, unbiased towards blacks or not, still finds all women unworthy. Perhaps you'd like to concede the fact that the situation we're discussing has nothing to do with worthiness, or perhaps you'd like to just continue ignoring all the evidence you've been demanding from us. What's it gonna be?

 

[Squirt]

None of you are listening.

1 - No one said God found them unworthy. That is something you've made up and pawned off as what we teach. You have no right to do so. God just said they weren't to have it.

Dan,

Will you please show me where God said Blacks weren't to have the priesthood. I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just wondering where the scripture is that says this. Thanks.

 

[dan]

It was a revelation received in the infancy of the church. It is in what we consider scripture, but not canon. Issues of church administration are rarely canonized. I believe it can be found in Discourses of Brigham Young.

We were asked to provide some legitimacy for the actions our church has taken, and we have provided it, but no one wants to address it, they just ask the same stupid questions over and over again; partly because they never anticipated that what was done is perfectly logical and (most importantly)in perfect harmony with the Bible. That point alone has never been addressed by a single person engaged in this debate. The other reason is because they have no argument beyond mudraking.

 

[Squirt]

IT was a revelation received in the infancy of the church. It is in what we consider scripture. This particular subject has nothing to do with why your religion thinks what my religion believes is crap, so save your whining. We were asked to provide some legitimacy for the actions our church has taken, and we have provided it, but no one wants to address it, they just ask the same stupid questions over and over again; partly because they never anticipated that what was done is perfectly logical and (most importantly)in perfect harmony with the Bible. That point alone has never been addressed by a single person engaged in this debate. The other reason is because they (you) have no other argument.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure whether this last post of yours was directed to me or to someone else. I never said anything about my religion thinking your religion is "crap," so I hope you weren't addressing me. (Actually, my post was the first time I've said anything at all on this thread. All I want to know is where is this revelation found? In which of your books can I read it? Is that asking too much?)

 

[Bishka]

This is how I feel about it - God always found them worthy, but men were racist. They instituted racist policies for whatever reason. It was only with the rise of the civil rights movement that the prophet and apostles actually humbled themselves before god enough to get a real answer. Sometimes men try to do what they think is best without god's advice, and they screw up. It's hard to admit that you screwed up but, once you do, god is willing to tell you what you should be doing instead.

Does no one listen to Aqua? She gave you the damn answer so listen and stop playing like you haven't. We believe our prophets are falliable, men, just like she said, their racists ideas got in the way.

 

[Squirt]

It was a revelation received in the infancy of the church. It is in what we consider scripture, but not canon. Issues of church administration are rarely canonized. I believe it can be found in Discourses of Brigham Young.

We were asked to provide some legitimacy for the actions our church has taken, and we have provided it, but no one wants to address it, they just ask the same stupid questions over and over again; partly because they never anticipated that what was done is perfectly logical and (most importantly)in perfect harmony with the Bible. That point alone has never been addressed by a single person engaged in this debate. The other reason is because they have no argument beyond mudraking.

Well, I know for a fact that the Discources of Brigham Young is not LDS doctrine. At least that what I've always heard LDS people say. Are you disagreeing with the others of your faith on this issue? If Brigham Young said Blacks weren't supposed to hold the priesthood, maybe it was just Brigham Young's opinion.

But you've raised another question. How can you say you consider something to be "scripture" without it being part of your "canon"? A canon is nothing more than a list of holy writings a church considers to be scriptural, or a collection of "official" doctrines of a church.

I apologize if I'm coming across as confrontational. I'm just trying to pin down this policy as doctrine.

 

[Squirt]

Does no one listen to Aqua? She gave you the damn answer so listen and stop playing like you haven't. We believe our prophets are falliable, men, just like she said, their racists ideas got in the way.

Good for you, beckysoup. I admire an honest answer and respect you for it.

 

[Ody]

None of you are listening.

1 - No one said God found them unworthy. That is something you've made up and pawned off as what we teach. You have no right to do so. God just said they weren't to have it.

2 - I've noticed none of you will address the fact that God apparently finds every woman on the planet unworthy to hold the priesthood as well; especially the orthodox Jews in the crowd. Not sayin' a whole lot about that are you? You just pass right over the fact that your God, unbiased towards blacks or not, still finds all women unworthy. Perhaps you'd like to concede the fact that the situation we're discussing has nothing to do with worthiness, or perhaps you'd like to just continue ignoring all the evidence you've been demanding from us. What's it gonna be?

Aqua ty for the answer, btw im not an orthodox jew so i have no idea on why they chose to allow women t be rabbis. Reform judaism which i follow allows all genders, and people from all races to take up the role of rabbi

 

[Aqualung]

Whenever I see ty I always think they're saying tinkyou.

 

[jazzalta]

This should clear up some of the Black issue. Bruce R. McConkie, a former apostle in the Mormon Church maintained that "those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellions against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pp.476-77) McConkie also said, "Negros in this life are denied the priesthood...Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."(Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p.477). I can see why there was evasion. The Blacks were seen as inferior, not only in human form but in pre-existence as well.

 

[Bishka]

This should clear up some of the Black issue. Bruce R. McConkie, a former apostle in the Mormon Church maintained that "those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellions against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pp.476-77) McConkie also said, "Negros in this life are denied the priesthood...Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."(Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p.477). I can see why there was evasion. The Blacks were seen as inferior, not only in human form but in pre-existence as well.

Have you not read anything? It's called human faliabillity, and you can't say that in that day and age all church leaders would let blacks into high positions in the church or hold their preisthood. Seirously. Get over it and stop trying to use sources that obviously were from a racist man, and btw, that's not doctrine. Not taught ANYWHERE in the church. I love how people, especially like you #1 - Take things out of context, 2) Use things that aren't church doctrine. Yes I know it says Mormon Doctrine, but McConkie said much on his OWN opinion. Not the churchs, yes he was a memeber of the Quroum of the Twelve, but that does not make him infalliable, or not subject to human prejudices. Get over it.

 

[Aqualung]

This should clear up some of the Black issue. Bruce R. McConkie, a former apostle in the Mormon Church maintained that "those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellions against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pp.476-77) McConkie also said, "Negros in this life are denied the priesthood...Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."(Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p.477). I can see why there was evasion. The Blacks were seen as inferior, not only in human form but in pre-existence as well.

It doesn't really "clear" anything, because my original comment still stands.

(If you didn't see my original comment, here it is: )

This is how I feel about it - God always found them worthy, but men were racist. They instituted racist policies for whatever reason. It was only with the rise of the civil rights movement that the prophet and apostles actually humbled themselves before god enough to get a real answer. Sometimes men try to do what they think is best without god's advice, and they screw up. It's hard to admit that you screwed up but, once you do, god is willing to tell you what you should be doing instead.

 

[Bishka]

Sorry for my rudeness and angry statements, but we keep giving answers and you keep saying the same things over and over again. I'm just a little worked up right now.

 

[jazzalta]

Have you not read anything? Damn you must be slow. It's called human faliabillity, and you can't say that in that day and age all church leaders would let blacks into high positions in the church or hold their preisthood. Seirously. Get over it and stop trying to use sources that obviously were from a racist man, and btw, that's not doctrine. Not taught ANYWHERE in the church. I love how people, especially like you #1 - Take things out of context, 2) Use things that aren't church doctrine. Yes I know it says Mormon Doctrine, but McConkie said much on his OWN opinion. Not the churchs, yes he was a memeber of the Quroum of the Twelve, but that does not make him infalliable, or not subject to human prejudices. Get over it.

I quoted from a book entitled Mormon Doctrine, bought in an LDS bookstore and you are saying it isn't doctrine. Okay. Do you recognize The Book of Mormon, Alma 3:6? It talks about it too. Look, I'm not trying to dis your religion, but you folks are evading valid questions. If I were interested in joining your church these are things I would want to know. Do you not know your own religion's history? How can you possiblly discuss Mormonism without knowing the background of the Church?

 

[Bishka]

This scripture refers only to the Lamanites. Not the black people. This was set upon them because they disobeyed God. This has nothing to with allowing blacks holding the Preisthood.

 

[jazzalta]

Aqualung, I must have missed your point earlier. Yes, I agree that men are fallible and screw up. Again, I'm not trying to negatively target your religion - I'm only trying to understand it.I've tried to use Mormon material where possible, but I must have hit a nerve mentioning Bruce McConkie. Anyway, I think I have a handle of the situation and if people were offended by the way I presented myself, then I apologize.

 

[Bishka]

Also, don't you think, myself as a member, Dan, Nutshell, Katzpur, Jonny and Aqualung know the history of our church a little better then youself? Hmm?

 

[Bishka]

I should apologize also. I've been a bit rude, but I'd like you all to see from the LDS point. Wouldn't you think that we know our own history and doctrines and how they are interpreted? We are the believers of the faith, not yourself. Not trying to be rude, just pointing this out.

 

[jazzalta]

I used to be a member Becky. But I had too many questions that were not adequately explained to me.