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What does demon possession mean to you?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I forgot about your flash frozen mammoth/buttercup failure. That was very entertaining and a great example of how people will grasp at any wild story just to support their beliefs.

Incredible acrobatics are required. You are just in denial.

Right! So vast herds of Mammoths and other animals experiencing a rapid death, are just ‘wild stories’, eh?

Synchronous extinction of North America's Pleistocene mammals

Still a “wild story”?

A destruction on such a gigantic scale, but scientists can’t figure out why!
Excerpt:
“However, reaching a consensus as to the cause(s) of the extinctions will first require a consensus regarding the chronology.”

A meteorite, an extremely huge tsunami caused by an earthquake....ANYTHING but the Flood! We can’t allow that interpretation!! We have a solution: we’ll just date it older, to take it out of the realm of Biblical possibility!”

There’s acrobatics, for you!
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I really appreciate your civil reply...


He was dealing w/ demons, angels turned bad, who were sleeping w/ women and having offspring (Genesis 6:1-4). Violence was everywhere!
If you recall an incident where Jesus was going to remove some demons from possessing an individual, and they requested to go into a herd of swine?

Apparently, they can inhabit any living fleshly body. (Though not form bodies, ie., materialize, anymore; have you heard of ectoplasm?) All animals not in the Ark would have been susceptible to such ‘use’. Hence, it required their destruction.

And Jehovah God giving Noah those instructions regarding the Ark’s ideal ratios, and knowing that later, the event would be recorded, provides more evidence that the incident was fact.




So, I take it that all those miracles that Jesus performed recorded in the Gospels...you think are fantasy, huh?
Putting words in my mouth is not making your case. It is however, false witness to do so.

You are telling me why God is supposed to have done it. Not why he did not chose one of the many magical reasons you claim were at his disposal. If magic was used in one instance why not another. Of course, you are only speculating and having nothing substantial to rely on you are left with making up stuff and claiming that as reason.

The instructions for the ark and that they fit some alleged perfect ratios is not evidence that the flood happened. I know that you are in denial, since your brand of creationism demands that you believe your specific interpretations of literal view, but that is your business. You can believe as you choose, but you cannot support an event that has no substantial evidence.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Right! So vast herds of Mammoths and other animals experiencing a rapid death, are just ‘wild stories’, eh?

Synchronous extinction of North America's Pleistocene mammals

Still a “wild story”?
Hilarious. Ten to 12 thousand years ago, which coincides with man's presence in North America. So you just take a fact from the past and magically apply it to a global flood that was supposed to have happened 4,300 years ago. You are all over the place like a high school boy on prom night.

Your story of the buttercup mammoth was a wild story. It only supports that you are gullible and willing to accept any gibberish if it fits with your belief.
A destruction on such a gigantic scale, but scientists can’t figure out why!
Excerpt:
“However, reaching a consensus as to the cause(s) of the extinctions will first require a consensus regarding the chronology.”

A meteorite, an extremely huge tsunami caused by an earthquake....ANYTHING but the Flood! We can’t allow that interpretation!! We have a solution: we’ll just date it older, to take it out of the realm of Biblical possibility!”

There’s acrobatics, for you!
Except that there is not an equal level of extinction seen on other continents during that time. Not everything went extinct. If it was a flood, how was it so picky? Just some of the megafauna. Why would these things not be on the ark and saved?

Lots of acrobatics. You are jumping all over the place. Too bad the big circuses went extinct. You would have a job for life.

Maybe the extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by the flood? Have you thought of that? What about the Devonian, Permian or Triassic extinction events. You are grasping at straws, so tell us about how those extinction events are evidence for the flood?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Uh...there were people before the Flood, who made objects. The Scriptures state that even metal-working existed before the Flood.
Duh. But according to you flood fanatics, there would have been no mountains for them to leave things behind on. But these things we find were magically left out of the mixed flood sediments that instantaneously turned to rock. Sure.
Heck, if these instruments were secured, or held in a confined area, they could’ve survived the Flood, and been found and used by humans afterward!
Of course. What instruments. Bodies. Structures. All sorts of items have been found that would not be found as they are if the mountains formed from some vast flood.
I’ve got tools in my house now that were made between 800 — 1200 years ago.
I’ve got coins over 2,000 yrs.old.
Good for you. I bet you can fantasize up something that indicates they are flood evidence.
And some people still live in primitive dwellings, and use stone tools. A thousand years from now (if things were allowed to continue), archeologists might discover them & conclude, “These were stone-age people”! Lol.
It is very doubtful that archaeologists, other than your fantasy archaeologists, would make that mistake, given the significantly overwhelming abundance of technological junk. You are so desperate to get any evidence to fit your belief, you are just making stuff up now.

I think Ötzi the iceman may have lived before the Flood, actually. He died violently, it seems....violence was quite prevalent then, according to Genesis.[/QUOTE]Violence is prevalent now. What is your point of that? Don't worry. It is rhetorical. No need to make something up in response.

Otzi predates the flood along with some other ancient mummies. These would not have been found where they were in the condition they were found in, if they had not been in the mountains from the beginning. Considering the dates, the mountains would predate your mythical flood. Sorry. The facts do not support you.
 

David J

Member
I've already given you some objective reasons why demonic possession in the Bible cannot be describing a modern recognized medical condition, as you seemed to claim it was, but how it is instead a spiritual condition.

If you're looking for more than that it would be helpful if you would first be more specific about what you're looking for.

Your question, or perhaps I should say your "demand" (it's hard to tell from your demeanor), is so open ended that I could answer it either in one sentence or a small book, depending on what you're looking for out of the answer.

I could Biblically define it as short and simple as "A spirit, not of God, that takes control of a person". Whether or not that is sufficient as a definition for you depends, as I said, on what exactly you're specifically looking to understand or prove about this topic.

If you can be more specific about what you'd like to Biblically know about this topic, I'd be happy to outline it for you.
It's not a matter of formality but a matter of communication clarity.
Are you asking what the individual personally thinks "demonic possession" as a phrase means, or are you asking what they think the Scripture means when they talk about the phenomenon?
Which question you're asking makes all the difference in what kind of answer you'll get. It's the difference between a subjective opinion that can't be disproven, or an objectively determined analysis of Scripture which can give us a solid framework of telling us what demonic possession is and isn't.
It's very easy for people to have personal opinions that don't agree with Scripture, but if you care about that opinion lining up with what Scripture says then it significantly narrows the range of possible answers they can give.

Ok that's fine.

So, you are saying that there is absolutely no confusion during this ancient time period with modern day recognized mental illness or other behavioral disorders, that demon possession is strictly another issue, or as you have said, spiritual.

So maybe I am wrong.
 

steveb1

Member
In the modern day, I ask this sincerely.

It's a phrase that's so common in the books I cringe every time I hear it. It's clearly a sign of medical ignorance.

As a substance dualist, non-materialist, and a believer in a Transcendent realm, in order to walk my talk I must acknowledge the possibility of demon possession. However, in my layman's search of the literature, I have not come across any authenticated case of demon possession.

Since the 16th century the Catholic Church has maintained that those who think they are possessed, and those who think this of other people, are in much more need of a doctor than an exorcist. The tragic case of Anneliese Michel, the German teenager who died of "misdiagnosed possession", is a perfect illustration of blaming the supernatural when only the natural (neuro-activity, body chemistry, etc.) is the actual cause.

The burden of proof is on those who insist on the reality of demon possession, and I for one have great difficulty in imagining how such a case could be scientifically documented without massive invasion of privacy to victims and families. I certainly would never take the word of witnesses at face value, nor would I amass historical anecdotes as indicative of genuine possession.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
In the modern day, I ask this sincerely.

It's a phrase that's so common in the books I cringe every time I hear it. It's clearly a sign of medical ignorance.

I believe it is a spirit that takes over a person's mind and causes the person to do something evil.

A point in case is my grandson's father. Diagnosed as Schizophrenic because he hear voices would not be enough but the fact is that he goes into stores and shop lifts but has no memory of doing it. The reason is obvious: the spirit has his mind and causes him to do it and that is why he can't remember it because he wasn't there.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It's beyond that. It's throwing disease onto pigs and drowning them.

I believe when it comes to demon possession the medical field doesn't have a clue and that is why they never cure it. They can't get rid of the demon so they get rid of that part of the mind where it has power by the use of drugs. It is not a cure because as soon as the person stops using the drugs the demon goes right back to causing trouble.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I usually show someone who doesn't believe in possession. I get them talking and it's usually a few sentences before they realise what's coming out of their mouths is nothing like they intend

I believe that is not possession but simply brainwashing.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Ok that's fine.

So, you are saying that there is absolutely no confusion during this ancient time period with modern day recognized mental illness or other behavioral disorders, that demon possession is strictly another issue, or as you have said, spiritual.

So maybe I am wrong.

What ancient people may or may not have thought about mental illness is not really relevant to talking about what the Scripture says about the nature of demonic possession, because we can establish beyond any doubt from Scripture that demonic possession symptoms could not have been just a natural condition.
Furthermore, we also see elsewhere Jesus refer to demons as entities with personalities/wills that can enter and leave individuals.

Matthew 12:
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
...
“When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

Matthew 8:
28 When they arrived on the other side of the lake, in the region of the Gadarenes,[v] two demonized men confronted Jesus. They lived among the tombs of a cemetery and were considered so extremely violent that no one felt safe passing through that area. 29 The demons screamed at Jesus, shouting, “Son of God, what do you want with us?[w] Leave us alone! Have you come to torment us before the appointed time?”
30 There was a large herd of pigs feeding nearby, 31 so the demons pleaded, “If you cast us out, send us into that herd of pigs.” 32 Jesus commanded, “Then go!” And at once the demons came out of the men and went into the pigs.[x] Then the entire herd of crazed pigs stampeded down the steep slope and fell into the water and drowned.

Luke 4:
33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an impure spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34 “Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
35 “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
36 All the people were amazed and said to each other, “What words these are! With authority and power he gives orders to impure spirits and they come out!” 37 And the news about him spread throughout the surrounding area.
...
40 At sunset, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them. 41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.

Luke 8:
27 And when He came out onto the land, He was met by a man from the city who was possessed with demons; and who had not put on any clothing for a long time, and was not living in a house, but in the tombs. 28 Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, “[g]What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me.” 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had seized him many times; and he was bound with chains and shackles and kept under guard, and yet he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert. 30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.
32 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding there on the mountain; and the demons implored Him to permit them to enter [h]the swine. And He gave them permission. 33 And the demons came out of the man and entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
34 When the herdsmen saw what had happened, they ran away and reported it in the city and out in the country. 35 The people went out to see what had happened; and they came to Jesus, and found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting down at the feet of Jesus, clothed and in his right mind; and they became frightened. 36 Those who had seen it reported to them how the man who was demon-possessed had been made well. 37 And all the people of the country of the Gerasenes and the surrounding district asked Him to leave them, for they were gripped with great fear; and He got into a boat and returned. 38 But the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging Him that he might [j]accompany Him; but He sent him away, saying, 39 “Return to your house and describe what great things God has done for you.” So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.


We also see this with Paul:

Acts 16:
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
19 When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities. 20 They brought them before the magistrates and said, “These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar 21 by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice.”






The fact is, Scripturally, we see that demons can cause both physical sickness and mental illness. But we see also from Scripture that demons are spiritual entities with personalities and that they result in other effects on individuals beyond just illness (like unnatural strength or knowing about things they don't know in the natural).

So, "demon" is not just some word or concept that people just started attaching to any kind of illness out of ignorance for what was medically going on. In many cases a demon is actually behind things we would today recognize as medical illnesses and dealing with those spirits will actually bring physical/mental healing. We know this from modern experience where ministers of God do exactly that and people are supernaturally healed in ways that modern medicine can't explain. And we know Scripturally that is what we see Jesus and the apostles doing too.
 
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David J

Member
I believe it is a spirit that takes over a person's mind and causes the person to do something evil.

A point in case is my grandson's father. Diagnosed as Schizophrenic because he hear voices would not be enough but the fact is that he goes into stores and shop lifts but has no memory of doing it. The reason is obvious: the spirit has his mind and causes him to do it and that is why he can't remember it because he wasn't there.

I believe when it comes to demon possession the medical field doesn't have a clue and that is why they never cure it. They can't get rid of the demon so they get rid of that part of the mind where it has power by the use of drugs. It is not a cure because as soon as the person stops using the drugs the demon goes right back to causing trouble.

I'm not sure why you are discrediting the medical field. They aren't holding accountability to your grandson's father.
 

David J

Member
What ancient people may or may not have thought about mental illness is not really relevant to talking about what the Scripture says about the nature of demonic possession, because we can establish beyond any doubt from Scripture that demonic possession symptoms could not have been just a natural condition.

I really don't understand what you're talking about.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Right! So vast herds of Mammoths and other animals experiencing a rapid death, are just ‘wild stories’, eh?

Synchronous extinction of North America's Pleistocene mammals

Still a “wild story”?

A destruction on such a gigantic scale, but scientists can’t figure out why!
Excerpt:
“However, reaching a consensus as to the cause(s) of the extinctions will first require a consensus regarding the chronology.”

A meteorite, an extremely huge tsunami caused by an earthquake....ANYTHING but the Flood! We can’t allow that interpretation!! We have a solution: we’ll just date it older, to take it out of the realm of Biblical possibility!”

There’s acrobatics, for you!

I see you are heavily into snark, and though I
think I could snark circles, and for that matter,
oblate cycloids around you, let us see if that
can be avoided?

From your link-
Results favor an extinction mechanism that is capable of wiping out up to 35 genera across a continent in a geologic instant.

Two questions for your interpretation-
-How long do you think a "geologic instant" is?
-Why 35 genera instead of all of them?

 

Audie

Veteran Member
I believe when it comes to demon possession the medical field doesn't have a clue and that is why they never cure it. They can't get rid of the demon so they get rid of that part of the mind where it has power by the use of drugs. It is not a cure because as soon as the person stops using the drugs the demon goes right back to causing trouble.

"Right back to the dark ages" is what we have here.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
What does demon possession mean to me? Nothing, I don't believe in it because I don't believe in the devil or his demons. We don't have a belief in the devil in Hinduism. Demons in Hinduism are not the demons of Christianity. They are just supramundane spirits or beings (asuras and rakshasas) that give the gods a hard time. They don't generally plague humans.
 

David J

Member
What does demon possession mean to me? Nothing, I don't believe in it because I don't believe in the devil or his demons. We don't have a belief in the devil in Hinduism. Demons in Hinduism are not the demons of Christianity. They are just supramundane spirits or beings (asuras and rakshasas) that give the gods a hard time. They don't generally plague humans.

Giving Gods a hard time? Generally not plaguing humans?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Giving Gods a hard time? Generally not plaguing humans?

Truly. Humans seem to be largely ignored by them. They try to steal things from the gods (e.g. the nectar of immortality); sometimes afflict devotees of the gods; deceive the gods (not easy to do except for Brahmā, he's an easy mark for them); etc. Now, understand, I don't think there are very many Hindus who take any of these stories literally... maybe in extremely rural areas, but not generally. They're very fanciful, colorful, and sometimes hilarious stories that are morality and teaching stories, allegories and metaphors. They were composed in times when 99% of people were illiterate.
 

steveb1

Member
I believe it is a spirit that takes over a person's mind and causes the person to do something evil.
<...snipped...>

I agree with your definition as a standard, comprehensive take on possession.

My own position:

I am not a materialist or a reductionist. Moreover, I am a substance dualist and I believe in the reality of a sacred Transcendent. This view allows for the existence of demons and demon possession. However, as a matter of pragmatic fact, I have never read about any authentic, documented case of supernatural demonic possession. Until such is submitted for scientific peer review, I will continue to claim that while theoretically possible, there are, as far as I know, no documented cases of possession.
 
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