What does God want from you?

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe in "God," but any conscious agent able to prevent gratuitous suffering ought to, and one that didn't is justifiably called indifferent. If it cared, it would intervene.

Why should God prevent what you call gratuitous suffering, as if you know what suffering is gratuitous? Are you all-knowing? Do you know the end result of that suffering?

Obviously you cannot imagine that there is a purpose for suffering that you do not understand but many people will testify to value of suffering, how it strengthened their character and and made them a better person, how it stood as an example for others who had similar experiences and helped them help other people.

Only atheists complain about how God allows suffering. Some believers describe their suffering and how much it hurts but they either accept it as part of life, or if a crime was committed, they blame the criminal who caused it. Rational people don't blame God because they know that God did not cause their suffering so God is not responsible for it.

Nor did I claim it was, but add that this god is omniscient and omnipotent and that gratuitous suffering exist in the world, if the god existed, it would be one indifferent to that suffering.

You do not know the mind of God, nobody does.
You do not know that God is indifferent to suffering. It is completely illogical to make such an assumption based merely upon what you believe God should/would do if God was not indifferent.

Donald Trump is suffering now, and even if I had the power to prevent it, I wouldn't. Would you call me indifferent to his suffering?

I would say that you are indifferent to his suffering and rightfully so. He brought on his own suffering so he is responsible for it. I am not indifferent to the suffering of rapists and murderers, I hope they suffer the way they caused innocent people to suffer. I have zero compassion for first degree murder that was planned and carries out for selfish reasons such as sex or money. I, like many people, believe there is a special place in hell for these people.

Yes, it would be, if it had the power to make itself known and didn't. The words of prophets and messengers aren't convincing to critical thinkers. There is nothing in them that couldn't be there if no god existed.

God has made Himself known throughout history, through the prophets and Messengers. The fact that you don't recognize them is not God's problem.

I believe it was meant and taught literally until that became untenable, and then, rather than call the story a wrong guess - because we NEVER use that wrd with scripture, right? - some began calling it allegory. It most definitely is not allegory as allegory is defined.

Maybe it was meant to be understood literally thousands if years ago when those scriptures were written, but so what? We are not living in those times anymore so we know better.

Whether people in olden times and some people living today 'believe' there was a worldwide flood is a moot point, since science has now proven there was no such flood.

Then the god said to have made those things happen doesn't exist.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Stories men wrote about God do not represent the real God that exists.

In my life, experience.

Also in my life. Experience is the best teacher and the reason we are put here on earth for this short time is to learn by experience. People who are happy all the time because most everything goes their way do not learn as much as people who suffer. I would not say that most people like their suffering when they are in it, but most people are able to get through it and learn from it they are much better off for it, stronger and more resilient, able to endure any future hardships.

I have suffered for the most of my adult life and much of my childhood. Only for the early part of my marriage did I have what could be considered any happiness. I am at a place now where much of that suffering is gone. I do not know what the future holds but I am not going to worry about it. Because of what I have endured I know I can endure whatever comes my way.

I would never trade my life for another person's life who did not suffer much because I would not be who I am today had I not suffered.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Why should God prevent what you call gratuitous suffering

So that he can be a good god rather than a malicious or indifferent one like Satan.

Only atheists complain about how God allows suffering.

It's not a complaint. It's an argument against the existence of a tri-omni god, and an invincible one. All one can do is what you're doing simply denying that this god causes or permits gratuitous suffering. Abrahamic theists reject it because they have to, but atheists don't and are free to judge the story objectively without worrying about any god viewing them as blasphemers or being sent to perdition.

You do not know the mind of God, nobody does.

I know what indifference looks like from any mind. So do you when you allow yourself to.

Maybe it was meant to be understood literally thousands if years ago when those scriptures were written, but so what?

So what? It means that those Bible stories are wrong guesses, not allegories. It also means that scripture is not the word of an infallible deity.

 

[Link]

Clearly, you have many lessons to learn around revenge and payback. Wouldn't it be better to work at solving the problems rather than simply wanting to return the hurt? Clearly, you have chosen a path that will cause great pain in your life. On the other hand, it might be the only way for you to really understand this side.

Question: Do you really think God is going to ignore those bad choices some people make? God shows all His children, in time, what their choices really mean. Living those Lessons. People can choose some mighty hard lessons for themselves.

Say you are mean to me, then I revenge and return mean to you, then you revenge and return mean to me. It going round and round until the cycle is broken. Who will rise to the Higher Level to break the cycle? I will. You have all my Love and Kindness!! I become your best friend. By doing so I can increase the chances of teaching you away from the road of hurting others. Why you might not even realize you hurt others. Which is the better path??

It doesn't matter what Everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. Our choices determine our lessons and what returns. This is God's system of teaching. Justice, Payback, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the children Discover what the best choices really are.

Which is the best choice? I say don't be miserable chasing Hate, Revenge, Payback and all the other petty things mankind holds so dear. Choose the Higher Level and nurture others that direction as well.

Religion is a catalyst that brings so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can be dealt with. How is that working for you??

You have all my Love and Kindness!!

The cycle stops on the day of judgment. Good go to heaven and evil to hell.

 

[Link]

I find THAT comment arrogant. I don't need any gods or religions, thank you very much. Why would you presume otherwise?

You only find it arrogant, because you disbelieve in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

So that he can be a good god rather than a malicious or indifferent one like Satan.

God id not indifferent to suffering. God knows and cares, but since God is all-knowing, God also knows the suffering is for human benefit.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.​

​

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.” Paris Talks, p. 51​

There is no being called Satan. Satan is a fictitious creation of the Bible.

I know what indifference looks like from any mind. So do you when you allow yourself to.

You do not know what indifference looks like from God's mind, since NOBODY knows God's mind.

So what? It means that those Bible stories are wrong guesses, not allegories. It also means that scripture is not the word of an infallible deity.

Of course the Bible is not the word of an infallible deity. It is the words of men who were 'possibly' inspired by God to write the scripture, although there is no proof that God had anything to do with the scripture. Even if God had something to do with the writing of the Bible, the Bible is not like outdated news and it is no longer needed in this modern age. The worst thing for humanity is that so many people cannot let go of the Bible and move on to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A tri-omni god would be responsible for the evil. Isn't being the source of evil the same as being evil?

No! If you father a child who is evil, is it your fault that they murder others?
The murderer is the one responsible for the crimes, and not their parents.
..unless they are mentally inadequate, and so exempt from any responsibility.
..but then they would still be incarcerated.

 

[ppp]

.

Of course the Bible is not the word of an infallible deity. It is the words of men who were 'possibly' inspired by God to write the scripture, although there is no proof that God had anything to do with the scripture. Even if God had something to do with the writing of the Bible, the Bible is not like outdated news and it is no longer needed in this modern age. The worst thing for humanity is that so many people cannot let go of the Bible and move on to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Of course the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is not the product of an infallible deity. It is the words of a human who claimed to be inspired by God to write stuff, although there is no proof that there is any god to do anything with any stuff. Even if a god had something to do with the writing of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah., the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is outdated, unneeded, and harmful to humanity . The worst thing for humanity is that so many people cannot let go of the idea of that a god or a revelation has any value.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is not the product of an infallible deity. It is the words of a human who claimed to be inspired by God to write stuff, although there is no proof that there is any god to do anything with any stuff. Even if a god had something to do with the writing of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah., the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is outdated, unneeded, and harmful to humanity . The worst thing for humanity is that so many people cannot let go of the idea of that a god or a revelation has any value.

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the product of an infallible deity. It is the words of an infallible Manifestation of God who received a Revelation from God.
The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is pertinent to the age we live in and the teachings and laws of Baha'u'llah are vitally necessary if humanity is to survive and evolve to the next stage of its spiritual and material evolution. The Bible no longer serves any purpose for humanity. It is a Book that was written to apply to a former dispensation that ended a long time ago.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

The system that God has put in place for the present age is the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and as such we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

The divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God and that Messenger is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger of God for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

Of course I cannot prove that, nobody can.

 

[ppp]

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the product of an infallible deity. It is the words of an infallible Manifestation of God who received a Revelation from God.
The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is pertinent to the age we live in and vitally necessary if humanity is to survive and evolve to the next stage of its spiritual and material evolution.

You sound like a Christian. Or a Muslim. Or a Sikh. Or a Cylon. Just change the nouns and they would all say the same thing.

 

[Trailblazer]

You sound like a Christian. Or a Muslim. Or a Sikh. Or a Cylon. Just change the nouns and they would all say the same thing.

No, I do not sound like a Christian or a Muslim or a Sikh because their theology is completely different from the theology of the Baha'i Faith.

The Christian Faith and the Muslim Faith are true religions from God since they were revealed by Messengers of God, but Sikhism is not based upon any revelation from God. It is a man-made religion. Sikhism was founded in Northern India in the fifteenth century by Guru. A Guru is not a Messenger of God, he is a Guru.

Time marches on and the world and the needs of humanity change. That is why God sends a new Messenger in every age.

 

[ppp]

No, I do not sound like a Christian or a Muslim or a Sikh because their theology is completely different from the theology of the Baha'i Faith.

I'm afraid you do. As I said, there is nothing that you said in that paragraph that of yours that I quoted, and you are now pretending never happened, that haven't heard from people of those other religions. They just choose the nouns that favor them. Just as you did for your religion. It's MadLibs.

 

[Truthseeker]

Sikhism is not based upon any revelation from God. It is a man-made religion. Sikhism was founded in Northern India in the fifteenth century by Guru. A Guru is not a Messenger of God, he is a Guru.

Well, I think the Guru may have had inspiration from God, but not revelation from God. I have not looked closely at Sikh, so I don't know how much inspiration. i suspect it would not have lasted this long if it didn't have some inspiration from God. Baha'u'llah said this remember:

Warn, O Salman, the beloved of the one true God, not to view with too critical an eye the sayings and writings of men. Let them rather approach such sayings and writings in a spirit of open-mindedness and loving sympathy.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 329)

I'm not saying you wouldn't have this attitude if you read the Sikh scripture. For some reason Sikh is not in Ocean 2.0, but Confucian and Jainism are. Sikh was in previous editions of Ocean, but Confucian and Jainism were not then.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If you father a child who is evil, is it your fault that they murder others?

Not necessarily, but that is not an apt analogy to a tri-omni god creating "evil" people. I can't control my children's genetics or inherent nature. I can't foresee their future or control their behavior, and I wouldn't know how to prevent them from doing "evil" even if I could foresee that future. Being tri-omni changes all of that, and thus the degree of responsibility for outcomes.

You simply give a god that can allegedly do better on all of those fronts a pass because you have chosen a priori to believe that it is good no matter what it does. Infact, whatever it does or foresees and allows must be an act of goodness and love, so you must try to reconcile things like evil and gratuitous suffering in the world in some creative manner such as you are doing here. But it's not convincing to a skeptic, only to another believer with a will to believe that his god is good whatever reality he encounters.

I do not sound like a Christian or a Muslim or a Sikh because their theology is completely different from the theology of the Baha'i Faith.

He wasn't referring to specific theologies, but the claim you made about your theology which is common to several religions: "The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the product of an infallible deity. It is the words of an infallible Manifestation of God who received a Revelation from God." The Christians and Muslims make analogous bold, unevidenced, unfalsifiable claims about their prophets channeling deities.

The Christian Faith and the Muslim Faith are true religions from God since they were revealed by Messengers of God, but Sikhism is not based upon any revelation from God. It is a man-made religion. Sikhism was founded in Northern India in the fifteenth century by Guru. A Guru is not a Messenger of God, he is a Guru.

The "true religions" Christianity and Islam contradict one another, and that guru was no different than a prophet or messenger. This one also believes he is delivering God's intention:

"One day, when [Guru Nanak] was about thirty, he experienced being swept into God’s presence, while he was having his daily bath in the river. The result was that he gave away his possessions and began his life’s work of communicating his spiritual insights."

I think the Guru may have had inspiration from God, but not revelation from God

And what is the difference?

 

[Truthseeker]

And what is the difference?

In revelation from God, for the believer, they can have confidence that in every word the Messenger says, it is the truth. If someone is inspired by God, it is more hit or miss. They may say something that is not quite on the money, in that the wording is off a little or off track in some cases. For instance in my view Paul the apostle is that he is sometimes inspired by the Holy Spirit but sometimes not. I don't agree with everything he says. There is no guarantee that any of the letters following the 4 Gospels is completely true by any of them. However, they can still have some thoughts that I can learn from.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not necessarily, but that is not an apt analogy to a tri-omni god creating "evil" people. I can't control my children's genetics or inherent nature. I can't foresee their future or control their behavior, and I wouldn't know how to prevent them from doing "evil" even if I could foresee that future. Being tri-omni changes all of that, and thus the degree of responsibility for outcomes.

..so being "tri-omni" means that G-d can act as an illogical entity?

As I say .. either we have free-will to choose for ourselves how we behave .. or we don't.

 

[Muffled]

Do you believe the same about other virtues such as patience, forbearance, appreciation, compassion, they are neither good nor evil?

I believe the very nature of virtues is that they are good. Power can either create or destroy. God creates and the devil destroys.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not necessarily, but that is not an apt analogy to a tri-omni god creating "evil" people.

God did not create any evil people. The Bible supports that.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The "true religions" Christianity and Islam contradict one another, and that guru was no different than a prophet or messenger.

Christianity and Islam have some differences because they were revealed by different messengers in different ages to different people, it would make no sense if they were the same. Why would God send a new messenger to reveal exactly the same things?

Differences are not contradictions.... Muhammad did not contradict Jesus although He revealed new scriptures.
It is true that what Christians and Muslims 'believe' is contradictory, but that is not the product of the revelations from God. It is the product of the misinterpretations of their scriptures.

This one also believes he is delivering God's intention:

"One day, when [Guru Nanak] was about thirty, he experienced being swept into God’s presence, while he was having his daily bath in the river. The result was that he gave away his possessions and began his life’s work of communicating his spiritual insights."

Who cares what he believes? If he claimed to receive a revelation from God he was deluded. Gurus are a dime a dozen.

 

[Bird123]

God, and gods, and fairies and magicians and wishing wells and magic wands and Superman and angels and devils and goblins and pixies and all the characters of fiction exist as concepts / things imagined in individual brains. They have no objective existence.

I've invited you to show otherwise, but clearly you can't.


In a pig's eye you have. All you've done is waffle about believing and how one day it'll all happen, like the lottery. If you've ever suggested a procedure that will demonstrate the reality, the objective existence, of God, I certainly missed it, but it's not too late ─ spell it out for me.

In a time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. Study and understand God's actions and you will understand God. Look for purpose and you can Discover what God is doing with this world and people. If your Understanding advances enough, you might just get a visit from God.

There is much to Discover and Understand. This isn't a 15 minute journey. God hides nothing. All the secrets of God and the universe stare us all in the face.

Ok, you feel you have to leave God out of it. That's Great. When I started my journey, i was open to the possibility that God did not exist. Study this world, it's people, and the universe. Since it is a creation of God, you will be studying God regardless that you do not believe God exists. If you advance in Understanding enough and get a visit from God, you will know and all those beliefs will fall by the wayside. A visit from God will be something you are not capable of creating or duplicating.

Ebb and Flow of true knowledge. If I were to make a car, there are things all cars need: An engine, a way to steer, a way to stop, and a place to sit. You get the idea. This will help put the pieces together.

The base one should never fall below is that everything about God will add up. If things do not add up, you wander from the truth.

This journey will take a WIDE VIEW along with some advanced thinking. It might be too hard for some. On the other hand, I think everyone can Discover something.

This journey is not a journey about fiction. This is a journey about What Is!!

It comes down to what you really seek.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[YoursTrue]

The cycle stops on the day of judgment. Good go to heaven and evil to hell.

The Bible says that many people will live on a beautiful earth also. Revelation 21:1-5.
There's a lot of misconception about what hell is. Perhaps we can discuss that another time. But the earth is going to be a beautiful place for those God permits.

 

[Bird123]

For someoe that see's things very clear - you are not being very clear. God is a Teacher -- Got it -- and agree ... So what then .. what has the universe taught us ? What is the purpose of "Row row Row your boat -- gently down the Stream" ? .. according to Bird .. cause Bird is the Word ..

I have my own answer to this question .. stated somewhere in this 52 page thread .. curious as to what you heard though ... while rolling down the stream merrily

Prophet told you .. one thing you know fo sure .. das it .. ya hear .. telling you twice now .. how matter and energy come together .. arrange itself into a certain configuration .. opened its eyes .. and was aware that it existed.

You figure out that much .. then you come tell me bout what the universe has to say .. but before you came here .. was a time when this elemental stuff was only dimly aware of itself .... over time this awareness grew .. evolved .. until one day something remarkable happened .. the thought manifested itself into physical reality .... something you now take for granted when you make your pinky wiggle by force of will ..

Alas your god-like powers only extend to your own physical body .. you can make your pinky move .. but not the chair on your deck. Only God thoughts can manifest themselves externally -- but that is another story.

This is all you know for sure ... all the universe has taught you directly ... do you understand ?

Now what have you learned indirectly

First one must crawl until one acquires enough knowledge and wisdom to be able to walk. Still, it is possible to crawl in the wrong direction. On the other hand, wander around enough and there are things one might see again. Truth has a way of showing itself so that one, once again, has the opportunity to see and Discover.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!