What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?

[sincerly]

I agree, but you were the one to make the claim that scripture is only meant to be interpreted in one way, and I was simply informing you that Judaism and Jewish Halakhah(law) do not work this way.

punkdbass, The "scriptures" are a record of the Creator GOD's relationship to HIS Creation. "Judaism and Jewish Halakhah(law)" came about some approx. 2000+ years after Creation. However,it was GOD'S laws which Abraham obeyed and his progeny were to Obey. NOT anything Judah nor Jacob(Israel) devised.
The Scriptures are filled with the narratives of rebellion by the Israelites from Kadeah-barnea to the Babylonian captivity.
Yes, I know that ""Judaism and Jewish Halakhah(law) do not work this way.""
The rejection/denial of Jesus was evident from the Scriptures and had been prophesied by the Scriptures. "HE came came unto his own" and "was rejected"( Isa.53:3--all), "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (see John1:11)

Yes, GOD is Merciful and Just--HE is, LOVING and Long-suffering, also, However,since one refuses to repent, that one will perish. (2Pet.3:9; Ezek.18:30-32)

In mark 7:6-13, We see Jesus commenting on that "Jewish law". "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. "

At a very general level, I actually agree with this. That through the Holy Spirit, or God's Ruach hakodesh(Holy Spirit) and Shekinah(Presence) His will is made known.

""At a very general level,"" I can accept "Judaism", however, It is the "denial" of the entire reason for the Scriptures being written that I agree with Jesus. Prophets had been sent and they were killed----The Son came and HE was Killed. To this day there is still a denial of the scriptural truths and as some of the last words from Jesus concerning the Nation of Israel was "Your house is left unto you desolate".(Matt.23:37-39) No, GOD still accepts persons from all walks of life on an individual basis.---Repent and live.

But what's interesting is that these things often lead men to do significantly different things -or so they claim. I do believe in Revelation, but at the same time I believe man can not fully comprehend God's ways or plan. Obviously there are some things about God man can not know by definition. And as I stated, I think the fact that every single religious person has a slightly different God-concept or interpretation of the Bible testifies to that fact.

Neither do I believe that puny man will ever be fully understanding of the ways and plans of GOD. However, as shown previously, what is needed to be known by man will be revealed to man. And the means of salvation has been revealed. Also,(plan) that this earth will be destroyed and made new---where only the Obedient will live throughout eternity.---no more curse.

Yes, there is an attestation by the Scriptures that there are two "roads/paths" and all of humanity are on one or the other. That """has a slightly different God-concept or interpretation of the Bible testifies to that fact""" either of "fully being in compliance of the truths of GOD'S messages" or "professing to obey", but choosing an alternate understanding rather than the intent given by GOD.

I disagree completely, and as a Christian you should as well. Christians who believe in original sin would believe man would need a sacrifice no matter what - even if he was obedient. So I think my point of Jeremiah 7:22 still stands: that the blood sacrifices did not define the covenant, rather Jeremiah tells the Jews exactly what they must do to be God's people and have Him as their God, and he specifically says sacrifices are not a requirement.

???????? A Christian needs a sacrifice, but a Jew doesn't ????????
What Jeremiah has said is The Israelites have long been disobedient....notice, vs.18, The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. "

Sacrifices were made because of disobedience to GOD---SIN. What GOD required was Obedience. All that came out of Egypt and were to cross over Jordan into the promised land were covenanted to Obey and that covenant was ratified by a Blood Sacrifice.

And I have demonstrated with Leviticus 26:39-42, among many other passages, that it was possible for exiled Jews who thus could not make blood sacrifices(no Temple) to still achieve atonement.

Ezra 9:4, "Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice."

The Lev. account was as GOD said HE would perform BEFORE the Israelites crossed over into the promised land. Jeremiah was reminding them of that truth/fact. Disobedience brought on the prophesied results of the disobedience.

You must understand that as a Jew, such an idea is abhorrent to me, for I can not place something before God in the way you have described.

As a Created Human Being is it more important to Obey GOD or the lineage of a person? Therefore, back to the OP question of "Deny".

Then surly having faith in God alone would result in Obedience -- as demonstrated in the Hebrew Bible when Israel was faithful to God, or when specific prophets/leaders were faithful, obedience always resulted. Likewise, when they were not faithful and served other gods(thus disbelieving) they were not obedient. I just dont understand the difference between a Jew who has faith in God - and is thus obedient to the Torah(God's teachings), and a Christian who has faith in Christ - and is thus obedient to what they believe to be God's teachings. Christians claim that every teaching of Jesus is supported by the teachings of the OT, that Jesus does not contradict the Law. If this is true, then Jews would essentially be following the same things Jesus taught, so where is the problem

As you will notice I didn't address several your points regarding blood and atonement. I feel like we have argued that subject enough. I gave many points with scriptural support that atonement can be achieved without blood - and I still remain convinced that I am right. Obviously you are in the same boat with your beliefs, and that is fine.

punkdbass, Your: """"If this is true, then Jews would essentially be following the same things Jesus taught, so where is the problem"""". is the answer. Jesus said, the Jews were NOT following HIS Teachings---OR more importantly----those given to MOSES.
John5:46-47, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? " Again, the "Denial".

Believe whatsoever pleases you. The Scriptures state, "THY WORD IS TRUTH".

Is it really the "Thus saith the Lord GOD"? or the "beguiling words of the serpent"?

 

[punkdbass]

Yes, GOD is Merciful and Just--HE is, LOVING and Long-suffering, also, However,since one refuses to repent, that one will perish. (2Pet.3:9; Ezek.18:30-32)

I agree that if one refuses to repent, they shall perish. But the obvious difference between us is that I believe people can repent without believing Jesus is God, or without believing in the need for his blood. For example, I believe Jews who repent as Hosea, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Psalm 51, or Leviticus 26 describe will be forgiven.

In mark 7:6-13, We see Jesus commenting on that "Jewish law". "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. "

Sadly, some Jews put the majority of their energy in following the ritual commandments(such as ritual traditions found in the Oral but not Written Torah) while not putting enough effort into following the moral commandments. And these Jews tend to judge other Jews only based on their level of ritual observance rather than moral observance. But just as there are poor Jews so are there poor Christians. I just want to clarify that many Jews strive to fulfill the moral commandments, and put them above all else - such as loving your neighbor as yourself, not hating someone in your heart, not holding grudges, honoring parents, etc. And I believe that such a Jew would not be "holding to the tradition of men" but rather would be obeying God's law. I think you can agree with this hopefully.

""At a very general level,"" I can accept "Judaism", however, It is the "denial" of the entire reason for the Scriptures being written that I agree with Jesus

Oddly enough this is the same exact reason I deny Christianity. I believe scripture was written to show people that anyone can have a relationship with God - that He is near to all who call Him with sincerity(Psalm 145). Christianity says only followers of Jesus can come close to God, but I believe the entirety of scripture says otherwise. I will bring it up again.. how did David achieve salvation? There were absolutely NO blood sacrifices that could forgive his murder or adultery. The law specifically says that adultery and murder are punishable by death -- no blood sacrifices could atone for such a thing. Yet God forgives David. Atonement without blood is real and David attests to that fact. Jesus wasn't around in David's time, so you can't put him into the picture, especially considering he was a descendent of David.. David was forgiven without blood and without Jesus.

It amazes me how easy you seem to just ignore scripture, or dismiss so many verses I've given, I just dont get how so many Christians who believe the Bible is the word of God can ignore OT scripture with such ease and satisfaction. Jeremiah 7:22 specifically says that God did not demand blood sacrifices in order for us to be His people and He our God. The eternal covenant God made with Abraham still applies to Jews today, for despite no blood sacrifices Jeremiah proves that God is still our God. God will never abandon the Jewish people - Genesis 17:7, Leviticus 26:44-45, Judges 2:1, Psalms 105:8-10 .

Ezra 9:4, "Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice."

The Lev. account was as GOD said HE would perform BEFORE the Israelites crossed over into the promised land. Jeremiah was reminding them of that truth/fact. Disobedience brought on the prophesied results of the disobedience.

Wow you gave one example of the Jews giving a sacrifice in the Bible.. I'm quite aware that they gave MANY sacrifices throughout the entire Tanakh. But anyways you just proved my point, the Leviticus account DOES say that God will perform ATONEMENT before the Israelites cross over into the promise land and thus can make blood sacrifices. Leviticus 26 still stands as a perfect example of atonement without blood that no Christian has been able to refute to me. It explicitly says that exiled Jews, who thus cant make blood sacrifices, can confess and humble their hearts and achieve atonement without blood. Go ahead and keep dismissing these verses....

punkdbass, Your: """"If this is true, then Jews would essentially be following the same things Jesus taught, so where is the problem"""". is the answer. Jesus said, the Jews were NOT following HIS Teachings---OR more importantly----those given to MOSES.
John5:46-47, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? " Again, the "Denial".

Believe whatsoever pleases you. The Scriptures state, "THY WORD IS TRUTH".

Is it really the "Thus saith the Lord GOD"? or the "beguiling words of the serpent"?

I dont regard the NT as divine scripture. I have read the gospels, all except John. John was the latest gospel, and the amount of evidence that it was the most edited by the Church - for its own purposes - is beyond proof IMO. I read the first few pages and the amount of material that was different from the first 3 gospels turned me off instantly. How can I know anything the gospel John said was actually said by Jesus? Especially considering so many of his teachings, especially regarding eternal life, were not taught by the other gospels. I understand the NT is your holy scriptures, I am not trying to offend you, I am just saying that all a Jew needs is the Torah, for as the Psalms say: God's Torah(teaching) is perfect. So if you are to convince a Jew he needs Jesus, your going to have to convince them using the OT, which no Christian has been able to do for me. "You shall have no gods before me" is a commandment I can't break or satisfyingly dismiss with ease..

 

[Shermana]

"You shall have no gods before me" is a commandment I can't break.

Would you accept that the Trinity is a made up doctrine and that Jesus was not originally intended to be a god put before Ha-Elohim? (But as "a god" as in an Angel) Just because the mainstream has adopted a defication that ignores the actual teachings does not mean it represents the actual original.

Yet God forgives David. Atonement without blood is real and David attests to that fact.

David's apparently suffers greatly for his sins one way or another as we can see in the Psalms. And it can be argued others spilled blood for his sin instead because he had earned G-d's favor, his whole generational line suffered a curse for the sins.

David

David made no excuses for his sin. He simply admitted it. He was truly repentant, but this by no means was enough to pay the debt he owed God for his sins. Neither did God forgive David forthrightly. First of all, God struck David’s house with the curse of a sword (2Samuel 12:10). David endured the deaths of his two sons, Amnon and Absalom (2Samuel 13:28-29; 18:14). Secondly, when Absalom rebelled and took David’s kingdom, he took David’s concubines for himself, and it was known to all Israel (2Samuel 16:21-22). After David’s death Solomon would kill his brother Adonijah, because Solomon suspected subversion in Adonijah’s request to take one of David’s concubines as his wife (1Kings 2:23-25). Finally, because David through his adulterous affair caused unbelievers in Israel to blaspheme God, the child David conceived with Bathsheba died.
Does the above seem like God had forgiven David forthrightly? A great deal of blood was shed because of the sin of David. God did not take the king’s life, because he had already promised David that he would build David’s house and cause one of his own children to reign after David. The LORD promised David that he would establish the kingdom of this child forever and even if he should commit iniquity, God would chasten him with mercy rather than destroy him (2Samuel 7:11-16). At this point in David’s life, Solomon had not yet been born. If God were to keep his promise to David, the LORD had to be merciful with David by bringing him to repentance. Therefore, even in this great punishment that David endured, there was mercy from God. The LORD spared David’s life for the sake of his own word to the king. Yet, in being merciful God did not set aside the Law (Torah). He punished David and four of his own sons died because of David’s sin.
In line with the above, David composed Psalm 51. The Psalm offers more meaning to David’s repentance that was simply narrated in 2Samuel 12 above. I have discussed this matter with some over the internet who would have us believe that the words David used in Psalm 51:17 show God really does not want a blood sacrifice, but a repentant heart is enough. Let’s look at the Scripture:

 

[punkdbass]

Would you accept that the Trinity is a made up doctrine and that Jesus was not originally intended to be a god put before Ha-Elohim? (But as "a god" as in an Angel) Just because the mainstream has adopted a defication that ignores the actual teachings does not mean it represents the actual original.

You know, a Christian friend of mine recently explained to me his interpretation of the trinity, an interpretation that finally made some sense to me. He said He believes God is ONE, there is only one God - the father. But he believes that God uses the Son and the Holy spirit to bring about salvation in mankind. He made an important distinction that God doesn't ONLY use the Son to bringing about salvation, but ALSO uses the Holy Spirit to bring about salvation. Which made sense to me because I think Jesus, who has brought billions to God, is helping to bring the world closer to the messianic age.. and Jews who fulfill a mitzvah(thus increasing the effect of God's Ruach Hakodesh and Shekinah to those effected by the mitzvah) are using the Holy Spirit to bring about the messianic age. His trinity concept was still a little non-kosher to me though because he said that we are all a part of God, but that Jesus was more so a part of God then anyone else, that the Son fully represented the God's will and expectations of us.

But anyways to answer your question: there simply is no way for me to know whether Jesus was an "angel" or prophet or messenger. Because ALL we have left of Jesus for me to learn about him is the Church, and the Church is quite different and contradicting to Judaism. I think it's possible that Jesus was a prophet or messenger of God, but there is simply no way for me to know because all I have left of him are the edited scriptures of the Church.

David's apparently suffers greatly for his sins one way or another as we can see in the Psalms. And it can be argued others spilled blood for his sin instead because he had earned G-d's favor, his whole generational line suffered a curse for the sins.

Good point, I agree. Which just goes to show you that being forgiven for murder or adultery is not an easy thing...

 

[sincerly]

I agree that if one refuses to repent, they shall perish. But the obvious difference between us is that I believe people can repent without believing Jesus is God, or without believing in the need for his blood. For example, I believe Jews who repent as Hosea, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Psalm 51, or Leviticus 26 describe will be forgiven.

Hi punkdbass, It isn't GOD who is hard-headed, but as those Prophets attested, God's chosen people for that time, continued in walking after their own evil ways---which were contrary to the Instructions which GOD had established as their mission. They Continued to assimulate unto them-selves the ways of the nations surrounding them and which were an abomination to GOD.
Those things lead to the Babylonian Captivity for seventy years. A condition from which the Nation of Israel did not recover. Even to this day.
Repentance? The Israelies, as a Nation, have never accomplished that act before the Almighty Creator GOD or There would have been a restoration of the Kingdom. Yes, Like Esau, it was sought with tears(the wailing wall still attests to such), But history still reveals the truth of the matter.
GOD isn't adverse to the individual Jewish truth seeker. Because there are still "Remnants" of the people who have seen and understood the big picture of the Seeking and Saving of all mankind who respond to the "Come--Let us reason together" concerning the Will of the Father.

Sadly, some Jews put the majority of their energy in following the ritual commandments(such as ritual traditions found in the Oral but not Written Torah) while not putting enough effort into following the moral commandments. And these Jews tend to judge other Jews only based on their level of ritual observance rather than moral observance. But just as there are poor Jews so are there poor Christians. I just want to clarify that many Jews strive to fulfill the moral commandments, and put them above all else - such as loving your neighbor as yourself, not hating someone in your heart, not holding grudges, honoring parents, etc. And I believe that such a Jew would not be "holding to the tradition of men" but rather would be obeying God's law. I think you can agree with this hopefully.

punkdbrass, Loving GOD with all of one's Being and one's neighbor as one's self---Is What the whole of the Law and the prophets is concerning. BY/Doing such there is NO SIN. (Deut.6:5; Lev.19:18)
One can claim to be adhering to these things, yet at the same time be Denying GOD. Eve and Adam are proof. The Israelites continued to believe that they were honoring GOD when they were following the lusts presented by their neighbors---in idols and other "abominations."------even to denouncing/persecuting the Prophets sent to warn them.(even to arguing that GOD'S ways were unjust).

Oddly enough this is the same exact reason I deny Christianity. I believe scripture was written to show people that anyone can have a relationship with God - that He is near to all who call Him with sincerity(Psalm 145). Christianity says only followers of Jesus can come close to God, but I believe the entirety of scripture says otherwise. I will bring it up again.. how did David achieve salvation? There were absolutely NO blood sacrifices that could forgive his murder or adultery. The law specifically says that adultery and murder are punishable by death -- no blood sacrifices could atone for such a thing. Yet God forgives David. Atonement without blood is real and David attests to that fact. Jesus wasn't around in David's time, so you can't put him into the picture, especially considering he was a descendent of David.. David was forgiven without blood and without Jesus.

punkdbass, The scriptures are correct. David sinned willfully, but when it was brought to his attention he had a humble and contrite heart in genuine remorse/repentance and was forgiven. You seem to forget that David sacrificed many animals to GOD for sins and thanks-giving. Blood was no stranger to David.
Christianity is open to all who seek a personal relationship to GOD. What you are discounting is those sacrifices for sins as seen in the initial chapters of Leviticus. Also, that GOD said Blood was necessary for the remission of SINS. To make and Atonement. Those are the Sacrifices which were shown from the "pattern" from which the tabernacle was made---and later the Temple.
Remember, the penalty for disobedience to the Decalogue was Death----the individuals or the animal substitute.( Which was for the time then present---until Christ came----as the reality for those "shadows".)

It amazes me how easy you seem to just ignore scripture, or dismiss so many verses I've given, I just dont get how so many Christians who believe the Bible is the word of God can ignore OT scripture with such ease and satisfaction. Jeremiah 7:22 specifically says that God did not demand blood sacrifices in order for us to be His people and He our God. The eternal covenant God made with Abraham still applies to Jews today, for despite no blood sacrifices Jeremiah proves that God is still our God. God will never abandon the Jewish people - Genesis 17:7, Leviticus 26:44-45, Judges 2:1, Psalms 105:8-10 .

Punkdbass, Jer.7:22 is referring back to the Sinai experience. What was GOD'S instructions?? Obey and live. God never indorsed sin of any kind. therefore, no need for sacrifices when there was no SIN. Also, with the Covenant, "ALL Persons" were covered with the blood of ratification.

What you are ignoring is the conditional aspect as seen in the context of those "promises". Repent and return.

Wow you gave one example of the Jews giving a sacrifice in the Bible.. I'm quite aware that they gave MANY sacrifices throughout the entire Tanakh. But anyways you just proved my point, the Leviticus account DOES say that God will perform ATONEMENT before the Israelites cross over into the promise land and thus can make blood sacrifices. Leviticus 26 still stands as a perfect example of atonement without blood that no Christian has been able to refute to me. It explicitly says that exiled Jews, who thus cant make blood sacrifices, can confess and humble their hearts and achieve atonement without blood. Go ahead and keep dismissing these verses....

punkdbass, Lev.26:40-46, is the prophecy which was fulfilled by the Babylonian Captivity.

 

[punkdbass]

Hi punkdbass, It isn't GOD who is hard-headed, but as those Prophets attested, God's chosen people for that time, continued in walking after their own evil ways---which were contrary to the Instructions which GOD had established as their mission.

Ahh okay so I'm evil then for following the 10 commandments, Leviticus 19:18, Deut. 6:5, among other commadments.. From what I know about Jesus, I don't think he would reject someone for doing these things.

punkdbrass, Loving GOD with all of one's Being and one's neighbor as one's self---Is What the whole of the Law and the prophets is concerning. BY/Doing such there is NO SIN. (Deut.6:5; Lev.19:18)
One can claim to be adhering to these things, yet at the same time be Denying GOD

I agree with your first point, that the whole of the Tanakh is to love one's neighbor as one's self, and to love God with all your heart, soul, and might.

First of all who are you to judge someone for failing to do these things? Only God knows if a man is fulfilling the above commandments to the best of his ability. A Jew who does these commandments to the best of his ability is in no way denying God. And I think it is incredibly arrogant for you to say a Jew doesn't have the ability to do this, who are you to judge the contents of his heart?

The Israelites continued to believe that they were honoring GOD when they were following the lusts presented by their neighbors---in idols and other "abominations."------even to denouncing/persecuting the Prophets sent to warn them.(even to arguing that GOD'S ways were unjust).

I agree, the entire Tanakh is filled with stories of Israel rebelling from God and turning to idols. That is why Rabbinic Judaism stresses the following commandment "You shall have no gods before Me." All I need is God and His teachings, no one else. To require devotion to Jesus in order to get to the Father is a violation of this commandment, for it places something before God.

punkdbass, The scriptures are correct. David sinned willfully, but when it was brought to his attention he had a humble and contrite heart in genuine remorse/repentance and was forgiven. You seem to forget that David sacrificed many animals to GOD for sins and thanks-giving. Blood was no stranger to David.
Christianity is open to all who seek a personal relationship to GOD. What you are discounting is those sacrifices for sins as seen in the initial chapters of Leviticus. Also, that GOD said Blood was necessary for the remission of SINS. To make and Atonement. Those are the Sacrifices which were shown from the "pattern" from which the tabernacle was made---and later the Temple.
Remember, the penalty for disobedience to the Decalogue was Death----the individuals or the animal substitute.( Which was for the time then present---until Christ came----as the reality for those "shadows".)

You litterally ignored everything I said about David. David murdered and committed adultery. There is NO blood sacrifice in the Torah for murder or adultery, rather the Torah proscribes a punishment of death for such sins. Yes I am aware that David sacrificed many animals, but NONE of them could bring atonement for those 2 sins. Find me a blood sacrifice in the Torah that could forgive murder or adultery and prove me wrong for once instead of just ignoring me.

The fact of the matter is David murdered and committed adultery - 2 sins that no blood sacrifice can atone for. Yet God forgave David and established an eternal messianic covenant with him. Jesus's death did not atone for David, Jesus died hundred of years after David committed his sins, and clearly God forgave David during his lifetime. David was forgiven because of Psalm 51 - atonement without blood.

Punkdbass, Jer.7:22 is referring back to the Sinai experience. What was GOD'S instructions?? Obey and live. God never indorsed sin of any kind. therefore, no need for sacrifices when there was no SIN

Are you seriously telling me that the Jews who left Egypt were sinless? They were not. And Jeremiah says that God did not command sacrifices from the Jews leaving Egypt in order for them to be His people and He their God -- rather Jeremiah tells us the exact conditions, and specifically says sacrifices are not one of them.

punkdbass, Lev.26:40-46, is the prophecy which was fulfilled by the Babylonian Captivity.

Leviticus 26 is not a prophecy of the Babylonian Captivity, rather it is a teaching that whenever Jews are exiled from the land, and thus can not make blood sacrifices, they can still achieve atonement. And only after they achieve atonement can they re-enter the land. It is a teaching that applies to any exile, not just the Babylonian exile.

 

[sincerly]

Ahh okay so I'm evil then for following the 10 commandments, Leviticus 19:18, Deut. 6:5, among other commadments.. From what I know about Jesus, I don't think he would reject someone for doing these things.

Hi punkdbass, Jesus said, John 8:28, "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

No, It isn't evil to follow the "Commandments of GOD". But it is to follow the erroneous teachings of man. Jesus was totally in obedience to the Father's Will.

I agree with your first point, that the whole of the Tanakh is to love one's neighbor as one's self, and to love God with all your heart, soul, and might.

First of all who are you to judge someone for failing to do these things? Only God knows if a man is fulfilling the above commandments to the best of his ability. A Jew who does these commandments to the best of his ability is in no way denying God. And I think it is incredibly arrogant for you to say a Jew doesn't have the ability to do this, who are you to judge the contents of his heart?

punkdbass, as I read the OT accounts, The narratives/instructions were given to the Israelites to bless the peoples of the world. (Starting with Abraham)--and give GOD'S truths to all peoples.
Unfortunately, The Israelies were so busy assimulating the evil practices of their neighbors that GOD'S Principles of Truth were forgotten.(But you already have acknowledged that fact of rebellion)
No, God has sent human Beings to teach and warn as needed. And the "one who isn't doing the best his ability"---needs that instruction whether from a prophet(Nathan) of an Abrigail.
All peoples of the world have the potential to be convinced/convicted of their need and "Repent".

The only arrogance is in the one who refuses to see the Truth of GOD'S words and continues in rebellion.

I agree, the entire Tanakh is filled with stories of Israel rebelling from God and turning to idols. That is why Rabbinic Judaism stresses the following commandment "You shall have no gods before Me." All I need is God and His teachings, no one else. To require devotion to Jesus in order to get to the Father is a violation of this commandment, for it places something before God.

There are more "gods" than those made of wood, metal, stone, etc., But What is it that the Creator GOD is stressing.? We know from Scriptures that the Jewish Leaders were "stressing" some Commandments of their own making.(Also, prophecies)

You litterally ignored everything I said about David. David murdered and committed adultery. There is NO blood sacrifice in the Torah for murder or adultery, rather the Torah proscribes a punishment of death for such sins. Yes I am aware that David sacrificed many animals, but NONE of them could bring atonement for those 2 sins. Find me a blood sacrifice in the Torah that could forgive murder or adultery and prove me wrong for once instead of just ignoring me.

By the time the Judges came along, there was an out-cry for a king to lead the people instead of a Theoracy. Bloody wars were frequent---and the sacrificial system was not seen as it should have been.---- to the sinner, it just became a means to continue in their evil ways.(Prophets' attested to the Fact as GOD dircted them)

The fact of the matter is David murdered and committed adultery - 2 sins that no blood sacrifice can atone for. Yet God forgave David and established an eternal messianic covenant with him. Jesus's death did not atone for David, Jesus died hundred of years after David committed his sins, and clearly God forgave David during his lifetime. David was forgiven because of Psalm 51 - atonement without blood.

punkdbass, There were two daily sacrifices and the yearly Day of Atonement Sacrifices which were blood sacrifices. Yes, God had made some promises to David and knew David's heart(as being one after GOD's own heart).
While you don't want to acknowledge it ---There was a blood sacrifice for ALL sinners.(which all are).
Look at the last two verses of Ps.51

Are you seriously telling me that the Jews who left Egypt were sinless? They were not. And Jeremiah says that God did not command sacrifices from the Jews leaving Egypt in order for them to be His people and He their God -- rather Jeremiah tells us the exact conditions, and specifically says sacrifices are not one of them.

Not at all, you just misunderstood my post.
Jeremiah, had stated that the Israelites that day(then) were full of SIN.
However, At Sinai, they were sanctified, Holy, Choosen, peculiar (Deut.7:6; 14:2)
As long as the had remained free of Sinning as Jeremiah stated, there was not need for sacrifices for sins. The sacrificial System had been put in place.----"But they harkened not".

Leviticus 26 is not a prophecy of the Babylonian Captivity, rather it is a teaching that whenever Jews are exiled from the land, and thus can not make blood sacrifices, they can still achieve atonement. And only after they achieve atonement can they re-enter the land. It is a teaching that applies to any exile, not just the Babylonian exile.

punkdbass, Lev.26:14-39does prophesy what will happen the the Israelites who Refuse to: """"But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;""""" and vs.46. Again the covenant at Sinai.

 

[punkdbass]

No, God has sent human Beings to teach and warn as needed. And the "one who isn't doing the best his ability"---needs that instruction whether from a prophet(Nathan) of an Abrigail.
All peoples of the world have the potential to be convinced/convicted of their need and "Repent".

The only arrogance is in the one who refuses to see the Truth of GOD'S words and continues in rebellion.

Okay so will God reject a Jew who, to the best of his ability, loves God with all his heart, soul, might, loves his neighbor as himself, and obeys the 10 commandments?

There are more "gods" than those made of wood, metal, stone, etc., But What is it that the Creator GOD is stressing.?

God is stressing that you shall put no devotion to anything before God, everything must be done for Him. Thus a Jew can't place Jesus before God. We can't believe that Jesus could possibly prevent people from coming to God -- for God is near to all who call Him with sincerity, and there are no gods before Him.

..to the sinner, it just became a means to continue in their evil ways.(Prophets' attested to the Fact as GOD dircted them)

I agree that the sacrificial system became corrupt, and the Jews werent using in the correct manner, the Bible gives many examples of this.

punkdbass, There were two daily sacrifices and the yearly Day of Atonement Sacrifices which were blood sacrifices. Yes, God had made some promises to David and knew David's heart(as being one after GOD's own heart).
While you don't want to acknowledge it ---There was a blood sacrifice for ALL sinners.(which all are).
Look at the last two verses of Ps.51

I already explained to you that Yom Kippur can't atone for murder or sins against other human beings unless you obtain forgiveness from the one your sins effected. The challenge still stands: find me a blood sacrifice in the Bible that can atone for murder or adultery. You have yet to do this, so my belief that David achieved atonement through true sacrifice to God - a contrite heart/spirit, is something I still firmly believe.

Remember, the Law says that a man who intentionally kills another man shall be put to death, and a man who intentionally commits adultery shall be put to death. The law does not say that a man who does this things shall offer a sacrifice for atonement...

punkdbass, Lev.26:14-39does prophesy what will happen the the Israelites who Refuse to: """"But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;""""" and vs.46. Again the covenant at Sinai.

Okay... and it says that the exiled Jews, who thus cant make blood atonement, can confess and humble their hearts and achieve atonement. And only after they achieve atonement can they re-enter the land. STOP IGNORING THIS, re-read the verses:

Leviticus 26:39-42 "Those of you who survive shall be heartsick over their iniquity in the land of your enemies... and they shall confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, in that they trespassed against Me... when I in turn... have removed them into the land of their enemies, then at last shall their obdurate heart humble itself, and they shall ATONE for their iniquity. Then will I remember My covenant with Jacob... and I will remember the land. For the land shall be forsaken of them... by being desolate of them, while they ATONE for their iniquity

 

[sincerly]

Hi punkdbass, Jesus said, John 8:28, "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

No, It isn't evil to follow the "Commandments of GOD". But it is to follow the erroneous teachings of man. Jesus was totally in obedience to the Father's Will.



punkdbass, as I read the OT accounts, The narratives/instructions were given to the Israelites to bless the peoples of the world. (Starting with Abraham)--and give GOD'S truths to all peoples.
Unfortunately, The Israelies were so busy assimulating the evil practices of their neighbors that GOD'S Principles of Truth were forgotten.(But you already have acknowledged that fact of rebellion)
No, God has sent human Beings to teach and warn as needed. And the "one who isn't doing the best his ability"---needs that instruction whether from a prophet(Nathan) of an Abrigail.
All peoples of the world have the potential to be convinced/convicted of their need and "Repent".

The only arrogance is in the one who refuses to see the Truth of GOD'S words and continues in rebellion.



There are more "gods" than those made of wood, metal, stone, etc., But What is it that the Creator GOD is stressing.? We know from Scriptures that the Jewish Leaders were "stressing" some Commandments of their own making.(Also, prophecies)



By the time the Judges came along, there was an out-cry for a king to lead the people instead of a Theoracy. Bloody wars were frequent---and the sacrificial system was not seen as it should have been.---- to the sinner, it just became a means to continue in their evil ways.(Prophets' attested to the Fact as GOD dircted them)



punkdbass, There were two daily sacrifices and the yearly Day of Atonement Sacrifices which were blood sacrifices. Yes, God had made some promises to David and knew David's heart(as being one after GOD's own heart).
While you don't want to acknowledge it ---There was a blood sacrifice for ALL sinners.(which all are).
Look at the last two verses of Ps.51



Not at all, you just misunderstood my post.
Jeremiah, had stated that the Israelites that day(then) were full of SIN.
However, At Sinai, they were sanctified, Holy, Choosen, peculiar (Deut.7:6; 14:2)
As long as the had remained free of Sinning as Jeremiah stated, there was not need for sacrifices for sins. The sacrificial System had been put in place.----"But they harkened not".



punkdbass, Lev.26:14-39 does prophesy what will happen to the Israelites who Refuse to: """"But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;""""" and also, see vs.46. Again the covenant at Sinai.

(edited to correct wording)

 

[Me Myself]

S/He who has denied help to his brothers has denied Jesus.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
No, God has sent human Beings to teach and warn as needed. And the "one who isn't doing the best his ability"---needs that instruction whether from a prophet(Nathan) of an Abrigail.
All peoples of the world have the potential to be convinced/convicted of their need and "Repent".

The only arrogance is in the one who refuses to see the Truth of GOD'S words and continues in rebellion.

Okay so will God reject a Jew who, to the best of his ability, loves God with all his heart, soul, might, loves his neighbor as himself, and obeys the 10 commandments?

punkdbass, salvation has never been limited to one ethnic group; As GOD has never been a respecter of persons. Deut.10:17-18, "For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
GOD'S same laws are for all peoples of the world.(2Chron.19:7; Ex.12:48-49; Deut.31:12, "Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that [is] within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:" ).

Yes, the Laws were given to instruct "all peoples" what is the acceptable attitudes/behaviour for a right relationship to the LORD GOD and one's fellow Beings, however, they do not "Save/ reconcile" one to GOD. God gave a "pattern"(to Moses)-- the "originals" of which were in heaven for the reconciliation of disobedient mankind. (Actually, Adam and Eve were first recipients of the fact/Promise in the "Skin of the animal slain to clothe their "nakedness". That Promise was via the "seed of the woman"--a Person/Being---"Gen.3:15".

Mankind didn't have any means to pay the penalty for rebelling/disobedience-- knowingly---and live to be reconciled. Death--is ceasing to live.
It was the Loving, Creator GOD who provided the means and Plan by which HIS Justice and Mercy could remain in agreement.

God is stressing that you shall put no devotion to anything before God, everything must be done for Him. Thus a Jew can't place Jesus before God. We can't believe that Jesus could possibly prevent people from coming to God -- for God is near to all who call Him with sincerity, and there are no gods before Him.

Punkdbass, GOD is GOD and anything which is substituted to take the Place of GOD as a is/must be rejected.
The Gospels and the Scriptures show the relationship of Jesus to the Father GOD. "I came to do thy Will". "Not my will ,but thine be done"(Luke 22:42). "And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me..(Luke 24:44)
John 7:27-28, "Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me."

I agree that the sacrificial system became corrupt, and the Jews werent using in the correct manner, the Bible gives many examples of this.

Punkdbass, the Sacrificial System DIDN"T become corrupt, but the people did---and they were offering Sacrifices for the wrong reasons.

I already explained to you that Yom Kippur can't atone for murder or sins against other human beings unless you obtain forgiveness from the one your sins effected. The challenge still stands: find me a blood sacrifice in the Bible that can atone for murder or adultery. You have yet to do this, so my belief that David achieved atonement through true sacrifice to God - a contrite heart/spirit, is something I still firmly believe.

Can one really call """a contrite heart/spirit,""" a "sacrifice". Isn't LOVE to GOD a "willing gift/acknowledgement of/to HIS being Lord of one's life?

Are you saying that "Yom Kipper" was void of blood sacrifices???

Punkdbass, didn't the day of Atonement sacrifices Cleanse the entire camp of Sins for the Year?? Beginning at/with the cleansing of the Priest and the Sanctuary and then the Congregation and ending with all the sins of the people being placed upon the "scape goat" and it taken into the "wilderness and loosened"??

Remember, the Law says that a man who intentionally kills another man shall be put to death, and a man who intentionally commits adultery shall be put to death. The law does not say that a man who does this things shall offer a sacrifice for atonement...

However, it is the LORD GOD who reads the hearts and minds and Who has the final say on who has the ""contrite heart/spirit,"".

Okay... and it says that the exiled Jews, who thus cant make blood atonement, can confess and humble their hearts and achieve atonement. And only after they achieve atonement can they re-enter the land. STOP IGNORING THIS, re-read the verses:

punkdbass, the Context is what you are ignoring----for two verses---which refer to Sinai and a time when the Israelites were sanctified by the blood of the Covenant. Read and understand. And I posted a verse which showed that those "exiles"/sent into captivity for disobedience ones---DID sacrifice.---However, there in no indication that they were Offering the twice a day of annual sacrifices regularly.

Leviticus 26:39-42 "Those of you who survive shall be heartsick over their iniquity in the land of your enemies... and they shall confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, in that they trespassed against Me... when I in turn... have removed them into the land of their enemies, then at last shall their obdurate heart humble itself, and they shall ATONE for their iniquity. Then will I remember My covenant with Jacob... and I will remember the land. For the land shall be forsaken of them... by being desolate of them, while they ATONE for their iniquity

punkdbass, that "ATONE" in the last two sentences Is not seen in any of the translations I have seen. In fact, it must be rendered such from "Ratsah" meaning the Israelites had "Accepted the punishment of their iniquity:"
Which isn't quiet the same as was meant by the ATONEMENT BLOOD SACRIFICES.

 

[punkdbass]

I agree that salvation is not limited to any one group, thus I don't believe salvation is limited to just Christians. I agree that the core of God's law is intended for all mankind - for scripture says there shall be one law for stranger and citizen alike. But I disagree that God's law cant save or reconcile a man before God. The Bible says that when we observe God's laws it shall be accredited to us as righteousness(Deut 6:25 ). And that God's Torah(teaching) is perfect and RENEWS one's life(.Psalm 19:8 ) And I believe that within God's Torah(teaching) He gave man methods for repenting and returning to God - such as sincere repentance and prayer. I dislike refering to the the Hebrew Bible as simply "the law." The word law brings limited connotations to it IMO, and I prefer to use the word Torah(teaching/instruction) to describe it, because so much more is found within the Hebrew Bible than a coded list of laws.

I don't believe in the dogma behind Jesus's blood. I don't believe in a limited God who doesnt have the power to forgive someone without the need for blood to be shed.

Can one really call """a contrite heart/spirit,""" a "sacrifice". Isn't LOVE to GOD a "willing gift/acknowledgement of/to HIS being Lord of one's life?

The Bible says a contrite heart/spirit = True Sacrifice to God(Psalm 51). Repenting inside your heart and giving up your evil ways is indeed equivalent to the power of sacrifice.

Are you saying that "Yom Kipper" was void of blood sacrifices???

Punkdbass, didn't the day of Atonement sacrifices Cleanse the entire camp of Sins for the Year?? Beginning at/with the cleansing of the Priest and the Sanctuary and then the Congregation and ending with all the sins of the people being placed upon the "scape goat" and it taken into the "wilderness and loosened"??

The Day of Atonement does absolutely nothing for a man unless he repents and obtains the forgiveness from the people he has effected with his sins. You cant murder someone and be forgiven by Yom kippur, because there is no way you can recieve forgiveness from the person you killed - because they are dead and thus arent alive to forgive you.

By the way, Christians dont even associate Jesus with the Yom kippur sacrifices, they associate him with the Passover sacrifice.

However, it is the LORD GOD who reads the hearts and minds and Who has the final say on who has the ""contrite heart/spirit,"".

EXACTLY. And a Jew, for example, who truly repents in his heart and has a contrite heart and spirit, as decided by God, can achieve atonement. For when a man confesses and gives up his evil ways, He will find mercy(Proverbs 28:13 )

And I posted a verse which showed that those "exiles"/sent into captivity for disobedience ones---DID sacrifice.---However, there in no indication that they were Offering the twice a day of annual sacrifices regularly.

exiled Jews could not offer sacrifices, at least not ones that satisfied any of the sacrificial commandments of the Torah. Thus the exiled Jews described in Leviticus 26 could still achieve atonement. And I use the JPS translation for all the verses I've given you, so the JPS or Masoretic text translates it as "atonement." Goodluck convincing a Jew the JPS translation is wrong.

 

[sincerly]

I agree that salvation is not limited to any one group, thus I don't believe salvation is limited to just Christians.

Hi punkdbass, When Adam and Eve disobeyed, choose to believe other that the Creator GOD, it wasn't as "Jews" or "Christians", but as persons. When GOD "covered their nakedness"/their exposure to an attitude of denial of truth and righteousness, it was by the "shedding of blood". The life of an animal to provide that "clothing", and to pay the price of "Death---which was the penalty the guilty pair received for their SIN--- A transgression of the law.(Denial of GOD and HIS Authority)

Cain was the first person to "deny" the necessity for a "blood Sacrifice".
One cannot save themselves by their own "works"/"Beliefs".

I agree that the core of God's law is intended for all mankind - for scripture says there shall be one law for stranger and citizen alike. But I disagree that God's law cant save or reconcile a man before God.

Punkdbass, The Decalogue was never intended to "provide salvation" for disobedient mankind. That is why those Sacrificial/Ceremonial Laws were Given to Moses.
Again. GOD is not speaking nonsense when HE said, Lev.17:11, "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul."
Lev.5:17-19, "And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist [it] not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist [it] not, and it shall be forgiven him."

Ezek.33:10-11, "Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Because one has "sinned" one is instructed to bring the necessary Sacrifice as above for the Atonement.
All those Blood Sacrifices were "Shadows" pointing to the future Sacrifice for all of mankind by Jesus "The Lamb(promised to be) slain from the foundation of the world". (Abraham and Isaac's trip to the Mountain revealed the truth of man's salvation and the role by GOD and Jesus.-----Luke 24:27, 44-48))

The Bible says that when we observe God's laws it shall be accredited to us as righteousness(Deut 6:25 ). And that God's Torah(teaching) is perfect and RENEWS one's life(.Psalm 19:8 ) And I believe that within God's Torah(teaching) He gave man methods for repenting and returning to God - such as sincere repentance and prayer. I dislike refering to the the Hebrew Bible as simply "the law." The word law brings limited connotations to it IMO, and I prefer to use the word Torah(teaching/instruction) to describe it, because so much more is found within the Hebrew Bible than a coded list of laws.

Punkdbass, in Deut.6:5 there is an "IF". Moses said those laws were to be taught to the Israelites and the mixed multitude (Who were about to cross over into the promised land).They had been sanctified by the blood of the Covenant.(since they were children at the time of Sinai)
Yes, the "torah" did give "methods" for "repenting/returning to GOD". That was in those Sacrifices---the payment for the sin and then the eliminating of the wicked ways from one's life. Therefore, the walking in agreement with the Will of GOD.
""sincere repentance and prayer."" doesn't pay or eliminate the death penalty for SIN.

I don't believe in the dogma behind Jesus's blood. I don't believe in a limited God who doesnt have the power to forgive someone without the need for blood to be shed.

Therefore, you now have the meaning of "Deny Jesus".

The Bible says a contrite heart/spirit = True Sacrifice to God(Psalm 51). Repenting inside your heart and giving up your evil ways is indeed equivalent to the power of sacrifice.

AH! But until one actually sees one's condition as wicked and in need for the forgiveness from GOD enough to accept the life giving Blood shed for those wicked/sinful ways and with a "contrite/broken heart acknowledges the Gift Jesus is offering in place of that truly repentant surrender of one's will to following the WILL of the father, one is still condemned to DIE.

The Day of Atonement does absolutely nothing for a man unless he repents and obtains the forgiveness from the people he has effected with his sins.

The Day of Atonement has to do with a reconciliation/remission of sins against GOD by mankind. Not another man.

By the way, Christians dont even associate Jesus with the Yom kippur sacrifices, they associate him with the Passover sacrifice.

FYI, Jesus is representive(the "shadow cast") in all the Annual sacrifices/festivals and the daily sacrifices.

 

[punkdbass]

Hi punkdbass, When Adam and Eve disobeyed, choose to believe other that the Creator GOD, it wasn't as "Jews" or "Christians", but as persons. When GOD "covered their nakedness"/their exposure to an attitude of denial of truth and righteousness, it was by the "shedding of blood". The life of an animal to provide that "clothing", and to pay the price of "Death---which was the penalty the guilty pair received for their SIN--- A transgression of the law.(Denial of GOD and HIS Authority)

Cain was the first person to "deny" the necessity for a "blood Sacrifice".
One cannot save themselves by their own "works"/"Beliefs".

I hope you realize this is an extremely Christian interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve, probably one that's only been around for a few hundred years. I have never, ever heard of such a concept in Judaism. I dont mean to be offensive but the idea that God clothing Adam and Eve is equivalent to a blood sacrifice, such as those listed in Leviticus, is absolutely ridiculous to me. IMO God clothed Adam and Eve to show that he still loved them, despite their disobedience. The clothing was simply symbolic for the fact that God was not going to abandon his creation.

As for Lev.17:11, Christians take this verse out of context. If you read the entire passage, its clear that the main point of the passage is to not eat blood. You could paraphrase the passage by saying: "Don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals; therefore, don't eat blood." It simply says that blood is used for atonement, but does not say that it is the ONLY means for obtaining atonement.

I also think its interesting that there are many times in the Bible where Jews offer blood sacrifices but God rejects the sacrifices and does not forgive their sins(for example: Amos 5:21-22 ) So the Bible clearly demonstrates that blood sacrifices don't guarantee atonement(if not offered sincerely), and that there must be more to atonement than simply blood. And David answers all these problems by saying True Sacrifice to God is not blood sacrifices, but a contrite heart and spirit.

Lev.5:17-19, "And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist [it] not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist [it] not, and it shall be forgiven him."

Not sure what point you are trying to make here but the reparation offering was for unintentional sins only. "And when a person, without knowing it, sins in regard to any of the Lords commandments..." - Lev 5:17.

""sincere repentance and prayer."" doesn't pay or eliminate the death penalty for SIN.

David disagrees with you. David willingly killed and committed adultery, and there were no blood sacrifices that could atone for such things. The Law says such sins are punishable by death. Yet David was forgiven because of sincere repentance. You simply havent been able to give me ANY reason to think otherwise.

AH! But until one actually sees one's condition as wicked and in need for the forgiveness from GOD enough to accept the life giving Blood shed for those wicked/sinful ways and with a "contrite/broken heart acknowledges the Gift Jesus is offering in place of that truly repentant surrender of one's will to following the WILL of the father, one is still condemned to DIE.

And you simply give me NO reason to believe that Jews(for example) today cant see the evilness of their ways and need for God's mercy, and thus dont have the ability to have a contrite heart and spirit. Your ignorance to the Jewish idea of repentance is offensive to me, to assume that Jews dont have the ability to sincerely repent in their heart and "surrender to the will of God. Plenty of Jews do this ALL THE TIME.

The Day of Atonement has to do with a reconciliation/remission of sins against GOD by mankind. Not another man.

Yom Kippur does not guarantee atonement for someone who murders another human being. The Law does not say "if you murder someone, then you must wait for Yom Kippur to achieve atonement." Rather it says "if you murder someone, you shall be put to death." The ONLY way to be forgiven from the act of murder, as David clearly demonstrates, is a contrite heart and spirit -- which is something only God can judge.

EDIT: I also think its interesting that Jesus, in the NT, requires that one should FIRST seek peace with their neighbors before reconciliation with God was possible - Matthew 5:23-24. So I think its fair to say that if Jesus were around in the times of the Torah, he would agree that one should first seek peace with his neighbors before the atonement proscribed on Yom Kippur was possible. (I just started reading "The Jewish Annotated New Testament" NRSV today, and I'm really enjoying it )

FYI, Jesus is representive(the "shadow cast") in all the Annual sacrifices/festivals and the daily sacrifices.

Cool. But the fact of the matter is the NT and Christians clearly associate him with the Passover sacrifice, hence why they believe he was crucified on Passover.

I would like to add that in the book of Jonah, God condemned the entire people of Nineveh to death for their wicked ways. The people however, repented and gave up their evil ways and God forgave them. No blood sacrifices were given, but God forgave them. How much proof can I give you of atonement without blood? Jonah, Hosea, Ezekiel, Isaiah, even Leviticus ALL speak of it. I notice you refused to meet my challenge to give me an example of exiled Jews offering kosher sacrifices to God(and not other gods). So my point of Leviticus 26 still stands unrefuted - that exiled Jews who thus could not offer blood sacrifices could still obtain atonement. And better yet, how was the nation of Nineveh forgiven, when they didnt offer blood sacrifices?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi punkdbass, When Adam and Eve disobeyed, choose to believe other that the Creator GOD, it wasn't as "Jews" or "Christians", but as persons. When GOD "covered their nakedness"/their exposure to an attitude of denial of truth and righteousness, it was by the "shedding of blood". The life of an animal to provide that "clothing", and to pay the price of "Death---which was the penalty the guilty pair received for their SIN--- A transgression of the law.(Denial of GOD and HIS Authority)

Cain was the first person to "deny" the necessity for a "blood Sacrifice".
One cannot save themselves by their own "works"/"Beliefs".

I hope you realize this is an extremely Christian interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve, probably one that's only been around for a few hundred years. I have never, ever heard of such a concept in Judaism. I dont mean to be offensive but the idea that God clothing Adam and Eve is equivalent to a blood sacrifice, such as those listed in Leviticus, is absolutely ridiculous to me.

Punkdbass, The Scriptures were not meant to be "offenseive", but to instruct one how not to "perish".
The context of Gen.3 was recorded by Moses and NOT by a Christian. I believe it to be true and From the Creator GOD.
Are you saying it is a myth? That GOD didn't mean that Adam and Eve wouldn't Die---since they did eat of the Fruit GOD said would cause their death? Was the Serpent correct--"ye shall not die??"
In pointing out the remedy for Sin/disobedience, Was GOD in error for the Gen.3:15 Promise? and then applying the principle?? If God didn't sanction Blood as a means of Redemption/Atonement, for what purpose was those animals sacrificed and their blood applied before GOD? Why was Cain's offering rejected by GOD?

DID GOD LIE??? "Ye shall surely die??" Was "death" really not the penalty?? Yet, From Adam to the present all persons are subject to the First (physical) death. Therefore, by the context of the Scriptures, we know that there is to be a Resurrection and Restoration of LIFE to Persons who have that "humble and contrite heart" which distinguishes those who "Believe" from those who "Deny" the only "Life giving Blood" which was revealed from "before the foundation of the world"---By/In the scriptures.

IMO God clothed Adam and Eve to show that he still loved them, despite their disobedience. The clothing was simply symbolic for the fact that God was not going to abandon his creation.

The Whole of the Scriptural writings/teachings reveal the "long-suffering of GOD'S Love for HIS Creation". The fact, that GOD has promised to restore all things new----new heavens and new earth where-in dwells only those who exibited the True "Repentant and contrite heart" and "surrendered WILL" to that of the Father is proof that GOD'S initial Creation wasn't to be in vain.

As for Lev.17:11, Christians take this verse out of context. If you read the entire passage, its clear that the main point of the passage is to not eat blood. You could paraphrase the passage by saying: "Don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals; therefore, don't eat blood." It simply says that blood is used for atonement, but does not say that it is the ONLY means for obtaining atonement.

That verse isn't out of context, the value of the Blood in the Atonement of sinful man was the purpose for it's use and "not to eat"---or "use in unlawful sacrifices". see the previous verses(Lev.16:30-34)(Speaks of the Annual day of Atonement).

I also think its interesting that there are many times in the Bible where Jews offer blood sacrifices but God rejects the sacrifices and does not forgive their sins(for example: Amos 5:21-22 ) So the Bible clearly demonstrates that blood sacrifices don't guarantee atonement(if not offered sincerely), and that there must be more to atonement than simply blood. And David answers all these problems by saying True Sacrifice to God is not blood sacrifices, but a contrite heart and spirit.

Punkdbass, Why do you find it interesting that IN/WITH disobedience any "sacrifices" are rejected? Or that a people is punished until repenting and returning or total rejection and "cut off from MY people"??
How can reproach added to reproach---"guarantee atonement"?

Not sure what point you are trying to make here but the reparation offering was for unintentional sins only. "And when a person, without knowing it, sins in regard to any of the Lords commandments..." - Lev 5:17.

Verse 18 then states such a one is to "bring a ram" for a "trespass offering"---again Blood for the "Atonement". "...he hath certainly trespassed against the Lord".

David disagrees with you. David willingly killed and committed adultery, and there were no blood sacrifices that could atone for such things. The Law says such sins are punishable by death. Yet David was forgiven because of sincere repentance. You simply havent been able to give me ANY reason to think otherwise.

punkdbass, I haven't spoken or addressed the "Today Issue" which you bring up in this next:

And you simply give me NO reason to believe that Jews(for example) today cant see the evilness of their ways and need for God's mercy, and thus dont have the ability to have a contrite heart and spirit. Your ignorance to the Jewish idea of repentance is offensive to me, to assume that Jews dont have the ability to sincerely repent in their heart and "surrender to the will of God. Plenty of Jews do this ALL THE TIME.

Therefore, to address the David situation and this "today" times together. You rightly stated the recorded fact that David had a "Repentant and Contrite heart" in relationship to the Creator GOD---even though his sins were great. David didn't stop with the Sacrificial Offerings because Nathan said the GOD said David would Live. Look at 1Chron.21:26,28, "And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering......At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there." Those were still Blood sacrifices.
Isaiah 53 identifies the Messiah who would be that sacrifice which was promised in Gen.3:15. The one bruised for our iniquities...."make his life an offering for sin".
Jesus is/was that "Lamb slain(promised) from the foundation of the world".

Those Animal sacrifices "were for the time then present"(Heb.9:9-11). "Today" there is NO animal sacrifices required by the LORD GOD. Reality and "shadow" have met.
Today "a broken spirit and contrite heart" acknowledges that Jesus paid that price of death(Death on the Cross) for the Sinner; and the reconciled previous sinner is now the "redeemed Child of GOD".

In Rom.11, Paul acknowledges that Jewish persons by the same "Belief" as Gentiles in the Jesus statement of John 3:16 are assured of "Eternal life".
"Unbelief" is still "denial".

EDIT: I also think its interesting that Jesus, in the NT, requires that one should FIRST seek peace with their neighbors before reconciliation with God was possible - Matthew 5:23-24. So I think its fair to say that if Jesus were around in the times of the Torah, he would agree that one should first seek peace with his neighbors before the atonement proscribed on Yom Kippur was possible. (I just started reading "The Jewish Annotated New Testament" NRSV today, and I'm really enjoying it )

Punkdbass, when one has sinned against another or one has sinned against you and either refuses to forgive that doesn't mean that the LORD GOD will not forgive the one who has the forgiving attitude/spirit. GOD knows the heart.

Cool. But the fact of the matter is the NT and Christians clearly associate him with the Passover sacrifice, hence why they believe he was crucified on Passover.

It is a fact that Jesus was crucified on the Passover--- as was the reason for the Annual commemorating of the Passover. "The hour is Come".(Mark 14:41; John 17:1)

I would like to add that in the book of Jonah, God condemned the entire people of Nineveh to death for their wicked ways. The people however, repented and gave up their evil ways and God forgave them.

Punkdbass, those Ninevites were not God's Chosen people and hadn't agreed to the blood ratified covenant. Yes, GOD did accept their Repentance, but they years later reverted to their wicked ways and were punished at that time. (See Nahum)

Isn't that the message of Ezek.18:25-32???

 

[punkdbass]

Man our posts are getting big, I'm going to try to narrow them down a bit..

Punkdbass, Why do you find it interesting that IN/WITH disobedience any "sacrifices" are rejected? Or that a people is punished until repenting and returning or total rejection and "cut off from MY people"??
How can reproach added to reproach---"guarantee atonement"?

I find it interesting because many Christians believe that as long as you have faith in Christ, you can keep on sinning but will still be forgiven, even if you don't try to change your wicked ways. First of all, in reading the NT I see no support for such a ridiculous concept, but secondly, the Hebrew Bible shows that blood atonement does not always guarantee atonement, for their are several instances where God rejects unsincere sacrfices - such as the example of Amos I gave. For even if one were to accept Jesus, he would still need to constantly repent and give up his evil ways, and not just assume free forgiveness. For the road to life is narrow as Jesus says.

Therefore, to address the David situation and this "today" times together. You rightly stated the recorded fact that David had a "Repentant and Contrite heart" in relationship to the Creator GOD---even though his sins were great. David didn't stop with the Sacrificial Offerings because Nathan said the GOD said David would Live. Look at 1Chron.21:26,28, "And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering......At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there." Those were still Blood sacrifices.

I am well aware that David continued to offer blood sacrifices, but I am 100% convinced that none of which could provide atonement for his adultery or murder - as the law specifically says.

Today "a broken spirit and contrite heart" acknowledges that Jesus paid that price of death(Death on the Cross) for the Sinner; and the reconciled previous sinner is now the "redeemed Child of GOD".

But my point is that none of the Jews of the Hebrew Bible "acknowledged that Jesus paid that price of death" yet many of them still had contrite hearts and spirits. None of them followed Jesus. Yet, many of them were forgiven by their contrite hearts and spirits - such as David, the exiled Jews described in Lev 26 who "confess and humble their hearts" and achieve atonement, or the exiled Jews in Hosea who give the offering of their lips(prayer). Nineveh is forgiven without blood sacrifice or belief in Jesus.. whether or not they later rebelled and met their demise(Nahum) is irrelevant, for the fact of the matter is God condemned Nineveh but they heeded Jonah's call to repentance, and God forgave them by renouncing their punishment. So if all of these things could happen without blood or Jesus, then I am right in believing God has the power to forgive without blood, and have no reason to believe he would magically lose that power in today's age.

Punkdbass, when one has sinned against another or one has sinned against you and either refuses to forgive that doesn't mean that the LORD GOD will not forgive the one who has the forgiving attitude/spirit. GOD knows the heart.

I agree, I was simply informing you about how Yom Kippur worked, and I found it interesting that what Jesus said in the NT supported what I had to say.

Punkdbass, those Ninevites were not God's Chosen people and hadn't agreed to the blood ratified covenant. Yes, GOD did accept their Repentance, but they years later reverted to their wicked ways and were punished at that time. (See Nahum)

Isn't that the message of Ezek.18:25-32???

As I addressed this above, the example of Nineveh(as well as Hosea, Lev. 26 and others) proves that God has the power to forgive without blood or Jesus. I simply have no reason to believe He magically lost this power in today's age.

Ha, as for Ezek 18:25-32 I would say the message is that God always gives us the opportunity to repent and give up our evil ways, and when we sincerely do so, we will live. However if we do so, that in no way excuses us from repenting for our future sins.

 

[sincerly]

Man our posts are getting big, I'm going to try to narrow them down a bit..

Punkdbass, as one considers that the message of GOD is an ongoing process----it just didn't involve from Genesis to Malachi because Malachi spoke of a continuing to the very end of time--as we know it.
The preparer "of the way before Me" and that narrative is seen in the Continuation----Called the "New Testament"---which is the history of the fulfillment of ALL those Prophecies which are the "foundation" of the "Salvation/Redeeming/Reconciliation" of All things made NEW.

I find it interesting because many Christians believe that as long as you have faith in Christ, you can keep on sinning but will still be forgiven, even if you don't try to change your wicked ways. First of all, in reading the NT I see no support for such a ridiculous concept, but secondly, the Hebrew Bible shows that blood atonement does not always guarantee atonement, for their are several instances where God rejects unsincere sacrfices - such as the example of Amos I gave. For even if one were to accept Jesus, he would still need to constantly repent and give up his evil ways, and not just assume free forgiveness. For the road to life is narrow as Jesus says.

Unfortunately, Both recipients of the OT(Jews) and NT(Christians) have not followed GOD'S Truth-filled messages by following one's own "erroneous understandings".
NO! One cannot continue Sinning and expect to be forgiven.( there is no improvement in the status==Sin brings its wages--- the death penalty.)
Since one(ALL) has the "death penalty" imputed from Eden, NO ONE is free from that penalty.
GOD gave only ONE means for Redemption from that Penalty. That means was promised/set in place/ established from before the foundations of the world were laid.----In the symbol of the "LAMB slain before the foundation of the world". (1Pet.1:18-21), "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."

I am well aware that David continued to offer blood sacrifices, but I am 100% convinced that none of which could provide atonement for his adultery or murder - as the law specifically says.

Punkdbass, As I read through the Annual Day of Atonement sacrifices( 10th day of the seventh month), I do not see any "specific sins listed". That was a general cleansing of the entire camp, priests ,and congregation. ALL were to "afflict their "souls"/entire being/Life for any sins which needed the Atoning Blood to cover.
(As an aside, That Day of Atonement is still ahead of us).

But my point is that none of the Jews of the Hebrew Bible "acknowledged that Jesus paid that price of death" yet many of them still had contrite hearts and spirits. None of them followed Jesus. Yet, many of them were forgiven by their contrite hearts and spirits - such as David, the exiled Jews described in Lev 26 who "confess and humble their hearts" and achieve atonement, or the exiled Jews in Hosea who give the offering of their lips(prayer). Nineveh is forgiven without blood sacrifice or belief in Jesus.. whether or not they later rebelled and met their demise(Nahum) is irrelevant, for the fact of the matter is God condemned Nineveh but they heeded Jonah's call to repentance, and God forgave them by renouncing their punishment. So if all of these things could happen without blood or Jesus, then I am right in believing God has the power to forgive without blood, and have no reason to believe he would magically lose that power in today's age.

GOD hasn't lost anything of HIS Power. That which GOD said and instituted still is true.
ALL the things you listed happened prior to the Birth and Cross experience of Jesus as a "fulfillment" of those things/needs as prophesied.

I agree, I was simply informing you about how Yom Kippur worked, and I found it interesting that what Jesus said in the NT supported what I had to say.

Punkdbass, did you notice when you were reading Matt.5 that the "lusting after a woman" in one's heart was equated as "Adultery"? Also, Hating one's brother was equated as "killing". The sacrifice by Jesus still today pays the penalty price.---HIS death/Crucifixion.

Ha, as for Ezek 18:25-32 I would say the message is that God always gives us the opportunity to repent and give up our evil ways, and when we sincerely do so, we will live. However if we do so, that in no way excuses us from repenting for our future sins.

Right, Until one dies or Jesus returns for the Redeemed, All living will need to "REPENT" for any new "Transgressions."

 

[punkdbass]

You know, I just dont see any of the dogma behind Jesus's sacrifice and blood atonement in the gospel of Matthew. The two parables in Matthew Ch 25 seem to say that non-Christians who don't know Christ can still get to heaven.

In the "parable of talents" a King gives one of his slaves 5 talents, the other 2, and the last 1. The first invests and earns 5 more talents, the second earns 2 more, and the last does nothing with his talent. The first 2 go to heaven, the last does not. One of my best friends is a non-religious agnostic who's girlfriend's Dad is a devout Christian. Her Dad told my friend that he interpreted this parable to mean that God gives us all different levels of talents, wisdom, understanding, etc.. and that all that matters is that we sincerely TRY to use these things for good. And those who do so will go to heaven, but those who refuse to try and use these things for good, will be denied. I personally love this interpretation, and this has become one of my favorite parables of Jesus.

The other story in Matthew Ch 25, Jesus divides those who are going to heaven and hell, and says to the heaven-bound, For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me..

And many of the righteous respond, "‘Lord when was it that we saw you hungry, gave you food…etc and Jesus says: ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.

So both parables, to me, suggest that non-Christians can still go to heaven, and that salvation is possible through works of compassion. I realize you still tightly hold onto your belief that forgiveness is not possible without blood sacrifice. My only advice to you, is a quote from Jesus, "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice." - Matthew 9:13.

Now the typical Christian response to this verse(which is in reference to Hosea 6:6) is that if everyone was sinless there would be no need for sacrifice, so obviously it is logical for God to desire other things more. But if everyone was sinless, then there would be no need for mercy, for there would be no sin.. yet God clearly says He desire mercy. So, as Jesus says, go and learn the meaning of "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." For surely those who sincerely repent with a contrite heart and spirit without blood sacrifices are still worthy of mercy? Perhaps you dont believe in the teaching of Matthew 9:13 or Hosea 6:6.

Punkdbass, As I read through the Annual Day of Atonement sacrifices( 10th day of the seventh month), I do not see any "specific sins listed". That was a general cleansing of the entire camp, priests ,and congregation. ALL were to "afflict their "souls"/entire being/Life for any sins which needed the Atoning Blood to cover.
(As an aside, That Day of Atonement is still ahead of us).

The Rabbis have always taught than one must obtain forgivenss from his fellow man for the things hes wronged him in before he can achieve atonement on Yom Kippur for those sins. Apparently Jesus agrees with this as well, for he agrees that one is required to seek peace with their neighbors before reconciliation with God was possible(Matt. 5:24) As a quick aside, the rabbis also taught that if one sincerely repents and asks for forgivenss, you shall not withold forgivenss from them(meaning you cant be stubborn and not accept their sincere apology).

So for example, if I steal something from my neighbor and never ask for his forgivness or return the object, both the Rabbis and Jesus agree that you would not be forgiven on Yom Kippur for such a sin. And lastly, as I have said several times now, the law does not say "when you murder someone, wait for Yom Kippur to achieve atonement for your sin." rather it specifically says that those who willingly murder shall be put to death. David was not forgiven from murder because of Yom Kippur.

GOD hasn't lost anything of HIS Power. That which GOD said and instituted still is true.

Oh really? So when the prophet Hosea told exiled Jews, who thus could not offer blood sacrifices, to instead offer the sincere prayers of their lips, and God would accept them back with love when they did this... then I can still do this today. I can still offer prayer without blood and receive God's love. Cool beans. Or when God displayed his power to forgive Nineveh without blood sacrifice, such power still exists today. Sweet

 

[sincerly]

You know, I just dont see any of the dogma behind Jesus's sacrifice and blood atonement in the gospel of Matthew. The two parables in Matthew Ch 25 seem to say that non-Christians who don't know Christ can still get to heaven.

Punkdbass, Are you saying that unless A principle of GOD is recorded in a specific Book and chapter that it isn't valid? As you admit, you have just started to look at the NT writings and that as interpreted by Hebrew writers. That's a little biased don't you think??
Matt.20:28 records Jesus saying this: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many".

In the "parable of talents"......
The other story in Matthew Ch 25, Jesus divides those who are going to heaven and hell,....So both parables, to me, suggest that non-Christians can still go to heaven, and that salvation is possible through works of compassion. I realize you still tightly hold onto your belief that forgiveness is not possible without blood sacrifice. My only advice to you, is a quote from Jesus, "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice." - Matthew 9:13.

Punkdbass, I understand your zeal to negate the Scriptures (even those of the OT, which are given by GOD as the means of taking away the sins of the people.) showing the Blood sacrifices for the Redemption/Atonement for SINS. The Zeal is in negating Jesus as that Sacrifice---AND the very Son of GOD the Father.

The "talents" are, also, seen in Luke 19:12 These were Parables, therefore, Not "Christian" or "non-Christian". However, the messages are plain. Yes, One is to use what ever the lord has given to "increase the assests left with them" and thereby, continue to "occupy until the return."
Matt.7:21-23 speaks against "works of Compassion" as a lofty goal unless it is from the Heart and within the Will of the Father. One can not gain Heaven's portals, by Ignoring the sacrifice of Jesus upon the Cross.

Now the typical Christian response to this verse(which is in reference to Hosea 6:6) is that if everyone was sinless there would be no need for sacrifice, so obviously it is logical for God to desire other things more. But if everyone was sinless, then there would be no need for mercy, for there would be no sin.. yet God clearly says He desire mercy. So, as Jesus says, go and learn the meaning of "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." For surely those who sincerely repent with a contrite heart and spirit without blood sacrifices are still worthy of mercy? Perhaps you dont believe in the teaching of Matthew 9:13 or Hosea 6:6.

By all means, I do believe Hosea and Matthew. As Jesus said, it is because there are sinners that HE(Jesus) Came to give them the solution to their "death penalty verdict".
The Father has stated many times that one should "Obey and LIVE". Therefore, GOD has no pleasure in the death of the sinner nor in those sacrifices which were to be performed to Atone for the "death Penalty".

A repentant, humble, and Contrite heart leads one to confess one's sins upon the head of that Sacrifice and slit it's throat---so that the Blood sacrifice would Atone for one's sin. Since Jesus Christ's death on the Cross, One only has to accept HIS atoning Sacrifice for one's sins.

The Rabbis have always taught than one must obtain forgivenss from his fellow man for the things hes wronged him in before he can achieve atonement on Yom Kippur for those sins. Apparently Jesus agrees with this as well, for he agrees that one is required to seek peace with their neighbors before reconciliation with God was possible(Matt. 5:24) As a quick aside, the rabbis also taught that if one sincerely repents and asks for forgivenss, you shall not withold forgivenss from them(meaning you cant be stubborn and not accept their sincere apology).

Forgiveness is seen in the "Lord's prayer" as well, (Matt.6:9).
And multiple times, as Jesus said, Matt.18:21-35; Luke17:1-4, "And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."

It is Jesus who is the Sacrifice for sins committed since HIS Death on the Cross.
Gal.1:4, "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: "

Gal.2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. "

Eph.5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; "

Titus 2:14, "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. "

 

[punkdbass]

One can not gain Heaven's portals, by Ignoring the sacrifice of Jesus upon the Cross.

See that's just it, I don't see this at all as part of the core message of Matthew. I see a wonderful message of love and mercy.

"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifices" The entire time I read Matthew the power of this verse kept echoing throughout my mind.. There is an old midrash that says God, being the perfect Teacher and rolemodel, actually performed every single one of the commandments and teachings before giving them to us -- in order to set a good example. So if God expects me to give mercy over sacrifices, how much more should I expect Him to do the same?

As for the rest of your post, now you are simply ignoring everything I'm saying and simply regurgitating what the Church has fed you. I feel that the majority of my points were simply not sufficiently refuted by any means, and thus I still believe God has the power to forgive without blood. But more importantly, I just don't buy into the Church dogma behind Jesus's sacrifice and blood atonement at all, it just feels too cold. To me, it places God and His mercy into a very, very small box, truly making His hand too short to save many who strive for charity and justice. And to me, that is not a Just, Merciful god at all.

To summarize a few main points I've made and why I still believe in atonement without blood:

• 1. Leviticus 26 says exiled Jews who thus could not offer blood sacrifices could still achieve atonement, in fact they HAD to achieve atonement before they could re-enter the land.
• 2. The prophet Hosea told exiled Jews, who thus could not offer blood sacrifices, to give the sincere offerings of their lips, and when they did this God would take them back in love. And as you said, that which God said and instituted is still true.
• 3. God forgave Nineveh when they repented without blood sacrifices.
• 4. If one willingly murders he shall be put to death. He shall not wait for Yom Kippur to achieve atonement, he shall be put to death. Yet clearly, David was forgiven for a sin that no blood sacrifice could cover.
• 5. Proverbs 28:13 “He who covers up his faults will not succeed; he who confesses and gives them up will find mercy.”
• 6. Psalm 51:18-19 "You do not desire burnt offerings; true sacrifice to God is a contrite spirit; God you will not despise a contrite and crushed heart.”

When I have a contrite spirit and crushed heart, God will not despise me(Psalm 51). When I give the sincere offerings of my lips, God will take me back with love(Hosea 14:2-8). When I confess my sins I shall find mercy(Proverbs 28:13). And when I give up my wicked ways, I shall truly live(Ezekiel 33:14-16)