What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?

[sincerly]

I would agree that some parts of the bible support the idea that faith is a requirement for salvation. (Paul and John).

You continue to avoid the parts of the Bible that do not jive with your perspective. Namely .. the Words of James and Jesus.

Im not sure why this is ?

Oryonder, didn't you see punkdbass's acknowledgement: "rather he is arguing that faith and works TOGETHER are required in order to be saved. "???

However, you have made it plain concerning why you believe that "Faith" isn't a part of that Salvation process.

My argument is that the words of Jesus and James do not seem to suggest that faith "in the blood sacrifice of Jesus" is a requirement for salvation.

The salvation of mankind is the theme of the entire Bible and the restoration (heaven and earth made new) from the penalty of disobedience/sin. And that by and through the promised/prophesied "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world."---Jesus.(Rev.13:8)
All those animal sacrifices for the sins of mankind seen in the OT pointed/"were shadows" to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the Cross.

Originally Posted by Oryonder
The first point is that there is a contradiction between philosophies at minimum, in different parts of the Bible.

You have not pointed out where the "assumption/speculation" so this claim is baseless.

That was my basis----only your claim.

I have not dismissed Galations.

OK, you deny still the verses which attest to Paul having received his knowledge from JESUS.

I have given support for my claims about Peter. You have not provided any rebuttle other than abject denial.

I read some of that site you based your claims upon and found it lacking in convincing facts. As seen below, your "building"/"opinion" is not on the "Rock" as you contend.

Even if you had however, this would not change the central premise that the "salvation by faith alone" doctrine is contradicted by James and Jesus.

See above.

[First off .. if you are going to claim that something is a "false" then you need to give some support for this claim.

I have given much scriptural support which you refuse because it contradicts your assumptions.

Im not sure if you noticed but all of your responses consist of abject denial/no substance. You completely ignored Post 110 as well.

See above. Read #113; some issues had previously been addressed. Kirby-- for example. What is written in 2Peter remains True.

[You quoted Proverbs but I would reference the words of Jesus where he says that ones foundation should be built on "Rock" as opposed to sand (abject denial of anything that conflicts with your belief is akin to a foundation of sand .. a solid foundation can withstand any questions)

Just because one claims sand is actually solid rock which has been pulverized/corrupted, doesn't render it---now "Solid".

Salvation--- the restoration to Live from the penalty of death, can only be obtained from application of the shed blood of Christ to that death penalty.("in the blood is the life")
"Faith in HIS Blood." "But, leave not the other undone".

I would also encourage you to read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs where it councils one to seek knowledge .. and also the words of Jesus "seek and you will find".

Excellent scriptures, please consider the applying it.

 

[sincerly]

Even Athiests grant that much of the message of Jesus has merit. I think much, if not most of the poison comes from man twisting the message to suit an agenda.

In this way, the message itself becomes poisoned.

Oryonder, The true message never is poison. It is what has been "twisted by man" that is poison in the assimilation into one's beliefs even the smallest amount.
The Prophets were sent through the centuries with the message to Repent and Obey---that is still the example for us today.
Therefore, know the truth/Scriptures so that the counterfeit can be discerned.

 

[Bob Dixon]

I think a little differently.

I think when "Christians" (and Jews) stopped believing in what was a nearly-universal ancient belief in the Afterlife (the Chasids are a great example of ancient Jewish afterlife beliefs in reincarnation living on), they lost a major motivator for morality. Even with the desire to serve the Father, without belief in a life after this one, things become....more...present if you know what I mean. A little more "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" rather than "Live righteously even until death for tomorrow we may be reborn".

Part of the problem is compounded by what I consider "incorrect' views of the Afterlife, such as the typical Orthodox Christian view of eternal heaven and hell. I don't think Jesus intended the word Aionos to be "eternal" as opposed to "age-like" a in a period of time regarding both heaven and hell. But I do believe that the ultimately wicked will be sealed in Tartarus after many unrepentant chances at life.

Even then, the Jewish idea of the "World to come" I think is very accurate and close to the Millenial Reign concept in Revelation (which was arguably written and used originally by anti-Pauline Jewish Christians, Pagels is not the only one to say this)

You're right, but I don't think that the Afterlife should be one's main motivation to do good. It's an easy motivation, but would it not be better to do good for sake of doing good (even though it's so much more difficult)? To take advantage of every moment and praise God instead of focusing on worldly things because you can't take those things into the grave (or the next life, as the case may be).

 

[Oryonder]

Oryonder, didn't you see punkdbass's acknowledgement: "rather he is arguing that faith and works TOGETHER are required in order to be saved. "???

However, you have made it plain concerning why you believe that "Faith" isn't a part of that Salvation process.

The salvation of mankind is the theme of the entire Bible and the restoration (heaven and earth made new) from the penalty of disobedience/sin. And that by and through the promised/prophesied "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world."---Jesus.(Rev.13:8)
All those animal sacrifices for the sins of mankind seen in the OT pointed/"were shadows" to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the Cross.

You are correct .. I do not believe that Faith " in the blood sacrifice" is required for salvation.

Animal sacrifices ?? Now you are grasping and making up things as you go along.
Are you also claiming that the human sacrifices the Israelites made to the Gods were part of this as well ?

Jesus does not claim anything in relation to belief in his sacrifice when he is directly asked what does one need do to be saved in the Sermon on the mount. Jesus talks only about deeds.

James does not say that Faith is a requirement either when discussing this topic directly.

That was my basis----only your claim.

You can deny the words from Jesus and James all you want. This does not constitute a refutation.

OK, you deny still the verses which attest to Paul having received his knowledge from JESUS.

What knowledge did Paul receive from Jesus ? Paul says nothing about receiving any knowledge from Jesus in his Vision. Paul does not say .. "In my vision Jesus said this and that" in relation to any belief in a blood sacrifice .. there are no claims of Paul saying Jesus said "believe in me and be saved".

I read some of that site you based your claims upon and found it lacking in convincing facts. As seen below, your "building"/"opinion" is not on the "Rock" as you contend

What was it that you found unconvincing, and where is your scholarship that states otherwise.

I have given much scriptural support which you refuse because it contradicts your assumptions.

I have addressed every piece of scriptural support you have given and you have given no rebuttle to my claims other than abject denial.

You have addressed nothing in relation to what Jesus say's in the sermon on the mount or James 2.

See above. Read #113; some issues had previously been addressed. Kirby-- for example. What is written in 2Peter remains True.

1) Post 113 does not address anything Kirby says
2) The arguments for a John being written after the Gospels and that there are numerous Authors comes from Kummel and Brown (not Kirby)

so what on earth are you talking about ?

Salvation--- the restoration to Live from the penalty of death, can only be obtained from application of the shed blood of Christ to that death penalty.("in the blood is the life")
"Faith in HIS Blood." "But, leave not the other undone".

It is a free country .. and you can believe what ever you wish.
This does not change the fact that the Jesus and James do not claim this.

Excellent scriptures, please consider the applying it

I do ! I seek the truth and when I found out that the truth are dogma were not congruent I had to reassess the dogma.

I am not the one that sticks my head in the sand and tries to avoid the obvious and pertend that these things do not exist.

I have address every one of your scriptural claims, cited Biblical Scholarship to back up my claims, given scripture to support my claims and so forth.

You have not addressed any of the evidence I have presented with anything other than abject denial.

 

[sincerly]

For those indoctrinated as children the odds are high that they will not ever have the strength to question certain ideas.

Truth is truth no matter at what age one hears and acknowledges it.
To question Truth is to deny Truth.
It is those "Certain ideas" which are contrary to Truth which one "indoctrinated" with truth will reject as having the erroneous material they contain.
Nor will they entertain an idea to believe such.

 

[sincerly]

I don't think that the Afterlife should be one's main motivation to do good.

TRUE, With the true follower of Jesus, that isn't the case. That is the idea of the "lip-service"/"professed believer"---and they will not by received into eternal life.
Those are the one's Jesus informs: "Depart from me, I know you not".

The bottom-line of that "motivation" action is really a denial of Jesus Christ while claiming to be HIS child/Redeemed Being.

 

[Bob Dixon]

Truth is truth no matter at what age one hears and acknowledges it.
To question Truth is to deny Truth.

Only if the "Truth" is incapable of standing up to a standard questioning.

 

[sincerly]

You are correct .. I do not believe that Faith " in the blood sacrifice" is required for salvation.

Case closed! The OP has been answered. GOD the Father sent Jesus into the world to die in vain. "What does it mean to deny Jesus."?

Animal sacrifices ?? Now you are grasping and making up things as you go along.
Are you also claiming that the human sacrifices the Israelites made to the Gods were part of this as well ?

Matt.5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "

Oryonder, that law Jesus was referring to was the Sacrificial/Ceremonial laws concerning the services rendered in the "worldly sanctuary" and were patterned after the Heavenly one which Moses was shown. (Heb.9:1) Jesus showed the fulfillment to the Disciples in Luke24:27, 44-48. Continue on in that understanding with Heb. 9+10.

Human sacrifices were never permitted by GOD by Mankind. When the Israelites back-slide and followed after the gods of the surrounding nations---they followed those nations abominations which GOD despised/condemned.

Jesus does not claim anything in relation to belief in his sacrifice when he is directly asked what does one need do to be saved in the Sermon on the mount. Jesus talks only about deeds.

Had HIS TIME FOR THE "FULFILLMENT" COME---WITH THE FIRST MESSAGE OF HIS 3 1/2 TEACHING AND PREPARING HIS DISCIPLES?
The being made right with GOD was seen in those daily and annual Sacrifices. (Which were only for "the time then present". Heb.9:9-10)

James does not say that Faith is a requirement either when discussing this topic directly.

In relation to "save", James has three verses. (1)1:21), "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."
(2) (2:14), "What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? "
(3) 5:20), "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. "

It is only in the "engrafted word" that all three have relevance.
Therefore, let's look at some scriptures.
Acts 13:26, "Men [and] brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent."
(That was in referrence to the crucified Jesus Christ)

Rom.1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. "
( that "engrafted word" is the Everlasting Gospel as is revealed from Genesis to Revelation.)

1 Cor.15:1-4, "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;..."
( that "engrafted word")

Eph.1:13,"In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
(above)

Heb.2:3, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; "
(above)

1Pet.1:2-9, "Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls."

James is in agreement with all those verses. It is you who in denying the blood sacrifice of Jesus are contradicting the whole of the Everlasting Gospel Message and thereby, GOD the FATHER--who sent Jesus for that purpose.

It is a free country .. and you can believe what ever you wish.

The BIBLE in whatever country you read it conveys that Freedom and the rewards or consequences.

I do ! I seek the truth and when I found out that the truth are dogma were not congruent I had to reassess the dogma.

Oryonder, the words to which "dogma" is translated mean "Decrees" or "ordinances" and can be either from Man or from GOD. The context shows which is indicated.

 

[punkdbass]

It is you who in denying the blood sacrifice of Jesus are contradicting the whole of the Everlasting Gospel Message and thereby, GOD the FATHER--who sent Jesus for that purpose.

FINALLY, thanks for answering the question I gave you. So I see now that you think Christians, who believe it is possible for non-Christians to go to heaven are thus denying Jesus by holding such a belief. I'm not exactly opposed to allowing Jesus become a greater part of my life, because I believe he leads people to God and Torah.. but believing that 100% of people who don't believe in the dogma behind Jesus's blood sacrifice will go to hell, is something I will never be able to believe.

Thanks for answering my question though, I was curious what your thoughts were on the subject.

 

[sincerly]

Only if the "Truth" is incapable of standing up to a standard questioning.

Since one questions truth, that one doesn't Believe it. It will stand up to any seeking after it. It is the LIE that collapses under the light of Truth.

One can Deny truth, but it will remain truth regardless of one's beliefs to the contrary.

 

[sincerly]

FINALLY, thanks for answering the question I gave you. So I see now that you think Christians, who believe it is possible for non-Christians to go to heaven are thus denying Jesus by holding such a belief. I'm not exactly opposed to allowing Jesus become a greater part of my life, because I believe he leads people to God and Torah.. but believing that 100% of people who don't believe in the dogma behind Jesus's blood sacrifice will go to hell, is something I will never be able to believe.

Thanks for answering my question though, I was curious what your thoughts were on the subject.

Hi punkdbass, that is the answer I have maintained from the beginning.
GOD is in the business of keeping any of mankind from "perishing"; GOD has given ample instructions regarding the method which is acceptable to HIM. It isn't "Christians and Non-Christians", but "Believers(those with faith)" and "Non-believers(those lacking faith).
Remember, those who lacked the Faith to cross over into the Promised land---died in the wilderness.
Apparently, today, that lack of "faith" is in acknowledging who Jesus Christ is and the price HE paid for the Redemption of all who choose to follow HIM in submission to HIS WILL BY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT SACRIFICIAL PRICE HE PAID.

Dust is the final price all who reject/deny GOD'S gracious offer will pay. Mal.4:1-3

 

[punkdbass]

Since one questions truth, that one doesn't Believe it. It will stand up to any seeking after it. It is the LIE that collapses under the light of Truth.

One can Deny truth, but it will remain truth regardless of one's beliefs to the contrary.

And why should one believe ALL of the Bible is true, and the the error of man is not present in it? And if the error of man is present, then how can we know which parts are true or in error?

Hi punkdbass, that is the answer I have maintained from the beginning.
GOD is in the business of keeping any of mankind from "perishing"; GOD has given ample instructions regarding the method which is acceptable to HIM. It isn't "Christians and Non-Christians", but "Believers(those with faith)" and "Non-believers(those lacking faith).
Remember, those who lacked the Faith to cross over into the Promised land---died in the wilderness.
Apparently, today, that lack of "faith" is in acknowledging who Jesus Christ is and the price HE paid for the Redemption of all who choose to follow HIM in submission to HIS WILL BY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT SACRIFICIAL PRICE HE PAID.

Dust is the final price all who reject/deny GOD'S gracious offer will pay. Mal.4:1-3

Ah okay, perhaps I misunderstood you before but I understand your view on the issue now. And okay, well just know that the faith you are describing is dead without works, for without works it can't achieve salvation. So clearly some merit is given to works. And perhaps those lacking in the specific faith you describe, will be judged by God and perhaps given some merit for their works. For clearly the Bible supports the idea that works can achieve merit, otherwise it would have said faith alone is all that is needed for salvation.

 

[sincerly]

And why should one believe ALL of the Bible is true, and the the error of man is not present in it? And if the error of man is present, then how can we know which parts are true or in error?

Hi punkdbass, as a member of the Jewish Faith, I'm surprised that you fail to recognize GOD'S answer in Isaiah(8:20), "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."

That admonition is in regards to any source---wizards, false prophets, so-called-scholars, the "wisdom of man","false philosophies", etc. Any who go counter to the "Thus saith the LORD GOD", will be denied the priviledge of being in that "new heavens and new earth" which Isa.66:22-23 is promised by GOD to make.

Ah okay, perhaps I misunderstood you before but I understand your view on the issue now. And okay, well just know that the faith you are describing is dead without works, for without works it can't achieve salvation. So clearly some merit is given to works. And perhaps those lacking in the specific faith you describe, will be judged by God and perhaps given some merit for their works. For clearly the Bible supports the idea that works can achieve merit, otherwise it would have said faith alone is all that is needed for salvation.

To the Contrary, When one (Deut.6:5), "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." LOVES GOD in that manner, that one will in the same strength of love "love thy neighbor as thyself".(Lev19:18)----God'S Decalogue reveals the "works of righteousness" which are pleasing to GOD. Thereby, the merit. The satisfaction of the "well done---my faithful servant".

 

[Bob Dixon]

sincerly, I wonder what you think of the fact that Christians and Jews were sacrificing in the Temple together and obeying all the Commandments together until its destruction. This clearly means that they accepted Jewish Law and rejected the idea of Jesus as a sacrifice, does it not? How will you explain this away?

 

[LoveFaithHope]

What are the criteria of things one must deny in order to be classified as "denying Jesus" - according to the NT? I dont want any church doctrine related opinions, I just want to know specifically what the NT says on the issue, and preferably just from Matthew, Mark, or Luke.

Punkdbass, good question.
It is not just NT that is speaking of denying Jesus, but however the entire Bible. From the Genesis to Revelation it is all about Jesus. As He was predicted by prophets of OT, revealed in NT in Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And He is coming back again in Revelation.
Denying Jesus means denying God, His Word - Bible, Scripture.
But my question is, if we are sinners and separated from the Holy God by our sin, and Jesus is perfect Lamb of God who died in our place for our sin and who rose from the grave, defeating death itself, so all who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Why would you want to deny Him?
Thank you!

 

[LoveFaithHope]

sincerly, I wonder what you think of the fact that Christians and Jews were sacrificing in the Temple together and obeying all the Commandments together until its destruction. This clearly means that they accepted Jewish Law and rejected the idea of Jesus as a sacrifice, does it not? How will you explain this away?

Bob,
After becoming true Christian, one would stop sacrificing in the Temple. Because by being Perfect Lamb of God, Jesus Christ completely fulfilled necessity for sacrificing animals. If you go back to OT, Jews were sacrificing spotless lambs to cleanse their sins, however if their sins were cleansed completely they would stop that sacrifice. But because no animals can wash our sins away; Jesus as perfect Lamb of God came to die in our place once and for all.
So sacrificing animals were foreshadow of real thing that was about to come - Jesus Christ. It is like when you were a child and played with toy cars, and someone would tell you "hey little dude, these toy cars, are only primitive replica of what you are going to experience when you become adult - Lamborghini, Ferrari, Mercedes. (you got the picture ). When Jesus Christ came, many Jews understood and accepted Him as Lord and Savior and stopped that practice that Jesus fulfilled.
thank you!

 

[sincerly]

Bob,
After becoming true Christian, one would stop sacrificing in the Temple. Because by being Perfect Lamb of God, Jesus Christ completely fulfilled necessity for sacrificing animals. If you go back to OT, Jews were sacrificing spotless lambs to cleanse their sins, however if their sins were cleansed completely they would stop that sacrifice. But because no animals can wash our sins away; Jesus as perfect Lamb of God came to die in our place once and for all.
So sacrificing animals were foreshadow of real thing that was about to come - Jesus Christ. It is like when you were a child and played with toy cars, and someone would tell you "hey little dude, these toy cars, are only primitive replica of what you are going to experience when you become adult - Lamborghini, Ferrari, Mercedes. (you got the picture ). When Jesus Christ came, many Jews understood and accepted Him as Lord and Savior and stopped that practice that Jesus fulfilled.
thank you!

Hi LoveFaithHope, Welcome to the forums.
Just to re-inforce your comments: Heb.9:1-11+ informs one that animal sacrifices "were for the time then present" and that Jesus was the Sacrifice which those "shadows" pointed to in their offering for one's sins. Heb.10:4, states that it is/was impossible for those sacrificed animals to take away the sins of the people.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly, I wonder what you think of the fact that Christians and Jews were sacrificing in the Temple together and obeying all the Commandments together until its destruction. This clearly means that they accepted Jewish Law and rejected the idea of Jesus as a sacrifice, does it not? How will you explain this away?

Hi Bob,I see LFH answered you post before I read it.
I don't see in any of the epistles where those who Believed in the "followers of the way"(initially) or when those were latter called "Christians" ever made animal sacrifices. Perhaps you have a verse to that effect?
Yes, the Jews and the Followers of Jesus continued to "worship togather" just as Jesus had prior to HIS Crucifixion. The Truth of the OT Scriptures had not changed.
It was the Jewish people who had rejected Jesus---the Messiah and HIS Mission which was revealed in those OT writings.
The Disciples were continuing to reveal to the congregate those truths which Jesus taught as revealed in the writings which the Jews claimed to Believe.
Those OT writings revealed Jesus as the true Sacrifice(Luke 24:27, 44-48)----a truth valid even today.

I'm not aware of any worshiping by "Christians" in the temple at Jerusalem after the Stoning of Stephen---because of the persecution which mounted and the "scattering" of the "Christian Believers". That doesn't mean that ALL Christians left Jerusalem, but only that they didn't worship in the temple.

 

[Shermana]

sincerly, I wonder what you think of the fact that Christians and Jews were sacrificing in the Temple together and obeying all the Commandments together until its destruction. This clearly means that they accepted Jewish Law and rejected the idea of Jesus as a sacrifice, does it not? How will you explain this away?

Boom. Headshot.

I can't believe that I have yet to use this argument when they bring up the "sacrifice" thing, how could I have let that slip?? Thanks Dixon!

Also, I almost never get a straight answer when I bring up that Zechariah and Ezekiel both involve sacrifices being done in the end days. How do they explain that one? I've seen some really warped "metaphorical" answers, none of them fly.

 

[Shermana]

Bob,
After becoming true Christian, one would stop sacrificing in the Temple.

Apparently the earliest Christians didn't agree. We have the dubious "Epistle to the Hebrews" telling them that sacrifice is no longer necessary, but does the author necessarily represent the will of the Father? Apparently Hebrews clashes with Zechariah and Ezekiel.

Why do you think Zechariah and Ezekiel talk about sacrifices in the end days?

Why would Jesus waste his time telling someone to make up with their brother before offering at the altar? What a waste of breath! Do you think such a teaching only applied for the few days he'd be alive?

Also, what do you think a "True" Christian is exactly? Were the earliest Christians who sacrificed at the Temple not "True" Christians?

Because by being Perfect Lamb of God, Jesus Christ completely fulfilled necessity for sacrificing animals

.

Then why wouldn't you be calling Ezekiel and Zechariah liars by this logic? What does "fulfilled" mean? When Paul says to "Fulfill the Law of Christ" does that mean do away with the Law of Christ?

If you go back to OT, Jews were sacrificing spotless lambs to cleanse their sins, however if their sins were cleansed completely they would stop that sacrifice. But because no animals can wash our sins away; Jesus as perfect Lamb of God came to die in our place once and for all.

So you're saying that they were able to be spotless before but not after? What caused this change? I agree Jesus was the Guilt offering prophecied in Isaiah 53 nonetheless....but the temporary one.

So sacrificing animals were foreshadow of real thing that was about to come - Jesus Christ. It is like when you were a child and played with toy cars, and someone would tell you "hey little dude, these toy cars, are only primitive replica of what you are going to experience when you become adult - Lamborghini, Ferrari, Mercedes. (you got the picture ). When Jesus Christ came, many Jews understood and accepted Him as Lord and Savior and stopped that practice that Jesus fulfilled.
thank you!

[/quote]

Well then, you'll have to explain why sacrifices are still commanded in the end times, unless of course you think Zechariah and Ezekiel weren't meant to be read literally or something.