What does the fossil record say?

[waitasec]

He doesn't! But by knowingly building in risky places he maximizes the damage.
There would be no damage nor calamity if men did not get in the way of these things.

how would he know it was risky?

 

[waitasec]

wilson,
was plasmodium falciparum designed?

 

[camanintx]

And how did they acquire the ability to respond?
From dead chemicals?

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Wilson

How do you differentiate between "dead" chemicals and "live" ones? Since virtually all chemicals react with each other on some level, life could simply be an emergent property whenever a group of compounds reaches a certain level of reaction, just as nuclear reactions occur only when you have a critical mass of fissile material.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If current function = purpose, then we must conclude that the pathogens that cause smallpox, ebola, botulism, cholera, tuberculosis, malaria, HIV, etc. were all intentionally designed to do so.

If that's the case, then this "designer" (god) is the worst bio-terrorist in history. It must be opposed and eventually stopped at all costs.

I completely agree. I raised the same question concerning Cancer in humans and animals.....:yes:

 

[painted wolf]

We were talking about famine - right? That is not always the result of lack of rain. Men often cause the problem:

We don't create the problem.. we just make it worse. Drought is the major cause of food insecurity. We don't control this:

“A wise and competent government saves out of the production of the good years in anticipation of bad years that are sure to come. This is not a new idea. The Bible tells us that Joseph taught this policy to Pharaoh in Egypt more than 2,000 years ago. Yet it is literally true that the vast majority of the governments of the world today have no such policy. They lack either the wisdom or the competence, or both.”........
"But it isn't their fault! How can we blame the poor people who are caught in an emergency? Why must we punish them?" The concepts of blame and punishment are irrelevant. The question is, what are the operational consequences of establishing a world food bank? If it is open to every country every time a need develops, slovenly rulers will not be motivated to take Joseph's advice. Why should they? Others will bail them out whenever they are in trouble."
Living on a Lifeboat* Garrett Hardin 1974

Some years ago I watched in amazement as tens of thousands of live chickens were bulldozed into a trench and then covered over. Why? To keep prices and profits up.

"Evidence is, that “advanced” nations often do not really want food to reach the point of abundance. Why not? Because then prices would drop and profits would be cut. Production is geared to keep prices high on the world market. Food is even used to gain political advantage." (Watchtower 75 4/1 p. 196 "Will We Feed Our Neighbors —Or Let Them Starve?")


"The Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN estimates that if all the food the world produces was evenly distributed, every person on earth would receive the equivalent of 3,000 calories per day, more than what most people actually need. In fact, in some countries, governments are even paying farmers to reduce their output so as to hold down the stockpile of surplus food and to stabilize prices."
(AWAKE! '85 5/22 pp. 3-10)
Bad for the economy!

I agree we can aggravate the problem.... but we don't control the rain.

No! But, like the common cold, they often cause them to spread and harm more people.

But we didn't create them. Who did?

No! But by keeping their environment clean, they can control the ill effects.
Ancient Israel was given detailed instructions on how to avoid the spread of diseases.
(See Leviticus, chapters 14 and 15) If followed today, the results would be amazing!

There is no way to keep the enviornment clean enough to stop all diseases or stop their ill effects. Malaria kills someone every 4 seconds several people will die as you read this post!

Given how much the Bible talks about something simple to stop like Leprosy, I doubt they were doing a very good job controlling disease. Granted they proposed covering yourself with bird blood as a cure!

God also told his followers to eat human and Cow excrement baked into bread! Ezekiel 4:12-15

He doesn't! But by knowingly building in risky places he maximizes the damage.
There would be no damage nor calamity if men did not get in the way of these things.

There is no place on earth safe from disasters.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/vulnerability_flood_large.gif
http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/00758/en/disaster/earthquake/risk.gif
http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/geography_images/Tornadoes_global_statistics_world_map.jpg
and on and on

wa:do

 

[waitasec]

No! But by keeping their environment clean, they can control the ill effects.
Ancient Israel was given detailed instructions on how to avoid the spread of diseases.

so why did god design disease?
what was the purpose, wilson?

 

[David M]

Like, up till now, along the northern coast of South America - Suriname, Guyana, Cayene, where they never experienced, to any major extent, any of those things.


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Wilson

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/last_event/world/world_guyana.php


Big enough to feel it.

 

[camanintx]

Like, up till now, along the northern coast of South America - Suriname, Guyana, Cayene, where they never experienced, to any major extent, any of those things.


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Wilson

The Eastern Caribbean is no stranger to earthquakes. In 1692 in Jamaica, a quake of an unspecified magnitude killed 2,000; in Leeward Islands in 1843, an 8.3-magnitude quake killed 5,000; and another in Jamaica in 1907, a 6.5-magnitude quake killed 1,000. Trinidad & Tobago have measurable earthquakes about once a month.

 

[wilsoncole]

We don't create the problem.. we just make it worse. Drought is the major cause of food insecurity.

This is not true! Men are!
Men often cause droughts. Clear-cutting forests and covering earth with cement and blacktop leads to drought.
"Trees also prevent soil erosion by retaining water in the soil and hindering runoff. Since trees hold a considerable amount of water, forests are less affected by droughts. Moreover, trees share their humidity with more fragile plants. Small vegetable gardens thrive in the fertile area created by large trees in semidesert regions such as southern Algeria." (AWAKE! 85 7/8 p. 23)
"The hospitable forest........ protects, sustains and actually improves mankind&#8217;s supplies of available water. .......In addition, trees purify man&#8217;s air. ....Trees also return to the atmosphere oxygen, which man breathes. That is one reason why air smells better in the forest, and why forests are vital to life on earth."
(AWAKE! 73 6/8 pp. 9-11)

We don't control this:

No - but you sure know how to ruin it.

I agree we can aggravate the problem.... but we don't control the rain.

Oh, how we hate to accept the blame for our ineptitude. See:
Desertification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But we didn't create them. Who did?

You seem to be admitting that they were not self-created. Strange - how we have drifted from whether or not things were designed or created to "whodidit?"

There is no way to keep the enviornment clean enough to stop all diseases or stop their ill effects.

Richer countries have managed to keep the spread of diseases down, so it can be controlled.

Malaria kills someone every 4 seconds several people will die as you read this post!

Yet, it does not happen here and in similarly "advanced" countries, so man knows how to keep it under control, yet he does not, and for selfish and economic reasons.

Given how much the Bible talks about something simple to stop like Leprosy, I doubt they were doing a very good job controlling disease. Granted they proposed covering yourself with bird blood as a cure!

Ancient Israel was instructed on how to stop the spread of leprosy, but says nothing about "bird blood" being a cure. Will you direct me to the text that says so?

God also told his followers to eat human and Cow excrement baked into bread! Ezekiel 4:12-15

Did he? Have you read the context? Let's see what it says there:
&#8220;And as a round cake of barley you will eat it; and as for it, upon dung cakes of the excrement of mankind you will bake it before their eyes.&#8221; And Jehovah went on to say: &#8220;Just like this the sons of Israel will eat their bread unclean among the nations to which I shall disperse them.&#8221;&#8221; (Ezekiel 4:12-13)
Did you get it? Have you taken note of the prophetic nature of the illustration? They were being warned that for their apostasy, Israel would be reduced to being captives and having to eat dirty things.
Since he provided for them, where will they get their food?
It continues:
&#8220;Accordingly he said to me (not to Israel): &#8220;See, I have given you cattle manure instead of the dung cakes of mankind, and you must make your bread upon it.&#8221; And he continued saying to me: &#8220;Son of man, here I am breaking the rods around which ring-shaped loaves are suspended, in Jerusalem, and they will have to eat bread by weight and in anxious care , and it will be by measure and in horror that they will drink water itself, to the intent that they may be lacking bread and water and they may look astonished at one another and rot away in their error (imminent starvation).&#8221; (Ezekiel 4:15-17)
In 612 B.C.E Israel went apostate, turning to idolatry. Israel was being warned of coming retribution. This prophecy was fulfilled in 607 B.C.E. when Babylon conquered Jerusalem and took its inhabitants in slavish exile to Babylon.

There is no place on earth safe from disasters.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/vulnerability_flood_large.gif
http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/00758/en/disaster/earthquake/risk.gif
http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/geography_images/Tornadoes_global_statistics_world_map.jpg
and on and on

Nobody said there is. I was being asked about tsunamis, earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes. There are lots of other forms of disasters and the added devastation inflicted on it by mankind.


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Wilson

 

[waitasec]

it is obvious wilson...
you will not commit to an answer...yes or no...
are diseases designed for a purpose?
are tsunamis, earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes designed for a purpose?

i have no problem saying these things were not designed much less for a purpose...
why is it that you do?

 

[wilsoncole]

The Eastern Caribbean is no stranger to earthquakes. In 1692 in Jamaica, a quake of an unspecified magnitude killed 2,000; in Leeward Islands in 1843, an 8.3-magnitude quake killed 5,000; and another in Jamaica in 1907, a 6.5-magnitude quake killed 1,000. Trinidad & Tobago have measurable earthquakes about once a month.

Please note my words:

Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Like, up till now, along the northern coast of South America - Suriname, Guyana, Cayene, where they never experienced, to any major extent, any of those things.

I said that if men stay out of the way of these things, they would suffer no damage.
I was then asked: "Like where?" That is why I mentioned those places.
I never heard of anything major and I said nothing about the Eastern Caribbean. I could find no pictures of damage or casualties in any of those places I mentioned above.
Maybe you can.

PS: I wonder why you guys take my words so seriously.


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Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

how would he know it was risky?

CS.
Common sense!
Men visit a mountain range and take note of its beauty.
They build a camp which later becomes a village and then a town, at the base of the mountains.
Comes the snow which builds up and then becomes avalanches, covering the town and its inhabitants.
They couldn't tell that was risky business?
The same thing happens with mudslides.

“Shrewd is the one that has seen the calamity and proceeds to conceal himself, but the inexperienced have passed along and must suffer the penalty.” (Proverbs 22:3)

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Wilson

 

[waitasec]

CS.
Common sense!
Men visit a mountain range and take note of its beauty.
They build a camp which later becomes a village and then a town, at the base of the mountains.
Comes the snow which builds up and then becomes avalanches, covering the town and its inhabitants.
They couldn't tell that was risky business?
The same thing happens with mudslides.

&#8220;Shrewd is the one that has seen the calamity and proceeds to conceal himself, but the inexperienced have passed along and must suffer the penalty.&#8221; (Proverbs 22:3)

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Wilson

another non answer....

ok...so were earthquakes designed with a purpose?
seriously...you are not making any sense...unless your principles adhere to double standards.

it seems that what you are saying is the loss of life in a tsunami is the purpose then but you're pussyfooting by being non committal.
if a group of people moved to a location who have no knowledge of what a tsunami is, what is the purpose of completely wiping out an entire group of people?

natural selection comes to mind... indifferent and chaotic
what do you think?

 

[wilsoncole]

How do you differentiate between "dead" chemicals and "live" ones? Since virtually all chemicals react with each other on some level, life could simply be an emergent property whenever a group of compounds reaches a certain level of reaction, just as nuclear reactions occur only when you have a critical mass of fissile material.

Simple:
There are no "live" chemicals.
Can you name me one?


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Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

another non answer....

So - why do you question me? You will only get what I've got.

ok...so were earthquakes designed with a purpose?

That is plain redundancy and a very foolish question.
Sorry - I don't do silly.

seriously...you are not making any sense...unless your principles adhere to double standards.

Another accusation.
It is your questions that make no sense. This believer is no pushover. If you think you can trip me up with words you are only wasting your time.

it seems that what you are saying is the loss of life in a tsunami is the purpose then but you're pussyfooting by being non committal.

Here we go again with the usual word-twisting accusations.
I will not waste time with it.

if a group of people moved to a location who have no knowledge of what a tsunami is, what is the purpose of completely wiping out an entire group of people?

Who would be doing the wiping? That would be ignorance leading to loss of life. They should ask about that location. Before I buy a property, I ask about the flood-plane and check all available maps and history of the spot. Choosing better building locations would solve the problem.

natural selection comes to mind... indifferent and chaotic
what do you think?

Natural selection that depends on mutations?
Failure comes to my mind.
From the Lonnig library:
"In addition, arguments are presented why the overoptimism and euphoria at the beginnings of the period of mutation breeding are to be evaluated in connection with the basic assumptions of the synthetic theory of evolution &#8722; i.e. the assurance that mutations and selection constitute the entirely sufficient explanation of the origin of all species and higher systematic categories of the plant and animal kingdoms alike. This point established, the question is discussed whether the finite nature of the mutant spectra found in plant breeding research might also have repercussions on the present theory of the origin of species."
http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long-Version-of-Law-of-Recurrent-Variation.pdf

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Wilson

 

[waitasec]

So - why do you question me? You will only get what I've got.
That is plain redundancy and a very foolish question.
Sorry - I don't do silly
Another accusation.

you leave me no choice but assume you haven't the slightest idea what you mean when you say the universe was designed and by the way you respond with an obvious attempt to change the subject...you are not the subject...your claim is...care to back it up?

It is your questions that make no sense.

i didn't make the claim, you did..care to elaborate

This believer is no pushover. If you think you can trip me up with words you are only wasting your time.
Here we go again with the usual word-twisting accusations.
I will not waste time with it.

i'm sorry, did i miss something?
are tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes and tornados the result of design or not? i didn't see a yes or a no only ad hominem's
when making a claim that the universe was designed with purpose, why would i not associate these occurrences of natural phenomenon as designed as well...not to mention the design and purpose of diseases...?

Who would be doing the wiping?

well i would say no one was...you are the one assuming design remember?

That would be ignorance leading to loss of life. They should ask about that location.

who are they going to ask if no one has ever lived there before?

 

[camanintx]

Simple:
There are no "live" chemicals.
Can you name me one?


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Wilson

And there are no "dead" ones either. Life is a property of the reactions between chemicals, not of the chemicals themselves.

 

[painted wolf]

Simple:
There are no "live" chemicals.
Can you name me one?

if there are no "live" chemicals then why did you ask about "dead" chemicals becoming "live" ones?

I thought you didn't do silly?

Anyway... according to you then, the human body is simply a collection of "dead" chemicals.

wa:do

 

[wilsoncole]

What about purely natural events, such as earthquakes, volcanoes and such like? Take human activity out of the equation for the moment (because we aren't responsible for all natural disasters, as your post seems to imply).

They were not disasters prior to human habitation. They can only be termed "disasters" if humans are affected.
If you take human activity out of the equation, they would all be harmless.


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Wilson

 

[waitasec]

i guess animal extinction doesn't count...

really wilson,
why have 98% of all species become extinct? was that designed for a purpose?