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What does the fossil record say?

wilsoncole

Active Member
I didn't condemn it - I asked for any geneticists who support it.

If there are none, then I have plenty of reasons to dismiss it.
You can Google it.
You really think I should care?

Was the big bang orderly or was it chaotic?

Listen: You have pressed me with a lot of questions.
Now - if you will not answer my questions, I will not answer any more of yours.
Is that fair enough?


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>(^)<


Wilson
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You want to hear some Bible?
Because that's where the answers lie.
Shall I go ahead?
Now - about the Big Bang!


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Wilson

you can't tell me what the purpose for any of the natural phenomenon i listed is...can you?

typical. your claim is unsubstantiated non sense and it certainly doesn't have anything do with the reality of living in an indifferent world we are subjected to...you haven't even explained the purpose for the design of disease either...oh no that would make the designer a mass murderer...:eek:

what a dilemma you have created for yourself wilson...:thud:
 

Krok

Active Member
you can't tell me what the purpose for any of the natural phenomenon i listed is...can you?
He/she won't. He/she will just ignore these questions as if these questions do not exist. That's how creationists do it. Ignore everything that does not 'confirm" their beliefs.
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
you can't tell me what the purpose for any of the natural phenomenon i listed is...can you?

typical. your claim is unsubstantiated non sense and it certainly doesn't have anything do with the reality of living in an indifferent world we are subjected to...you haven't even explained the purpose for the design of disease either...oh no that would make the designer a mass murderer...

what a dilemma you have created for yourself wilson...
The dilemma is yours. Why won't you answer the big bang question? I didn't think it was so difficult. Are you trying to avoid what it indicates?
I don't fall for childish dares nor bow to "peer"-pressure.
I can answer the question.
But................
You want to hear some Bible?
Because that's where the answers lie.
Shall I go ahead?

Now - about the Big Bang!



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( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
The dilemma is yours. Why won't you answer the big bang question? I didn't think it was so difficult. Are you trying to avoid what it indicates?
I don't fall for childish dares nor bow to "peer"-pressure.
I can answer the question.
But................
You want to hear some Bible?
Because that's where the answers lie.
Shall I go ahead?

Now - about the Big Bang!



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>(^)<


Wilson

:facepalm:
i have no dilemma silly; i don't know how it started...easy.
so were tornado's, hurricanes, earthquakes and tsunami's designed?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I didn't ask you how it started.
Was the big bang orderly or was it chaotic?
:facepalm:
was it orderly or chaotic...? hmmm. from observing the world around me i would say chaotic and indifferent... it was an event with no design and no purpose...
why would you know otherwise? i'd say think but you seem pretty confident in your knowledge of the universe no one has observed.
that is your dilemma...
now that we settled that...
are tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis and disease designed?
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
I have no intention of doing that.
I just want to know:
Was the big bang orderly or was it chaotic?
since you have no interest or intention to discuss what the fossil record says...
maybe you should check this thread out wilson
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-design-universe-teleological-argument-2.html

and notice this post in regards to complex, purposeful and orderly universe which is indeed flawed...

For starters there are the genetic, chromosomal, mental, physical, and other disorders that are here. There is the very high rate of natural abortions, such as when the impregnated egg fails to implant. And while our planet is far from being hostile, it can most certainly be very unfriendly towards it's inhabitants.
If the designer, which is also almost always "intelligent" is supposedly so intelligent, then why is it a teenaged girl who has not yet had her first period goes to the doctor only to find out she does not have ovaries or a uterus and has male (XY) chromosomes? Doesn't seem like a very intelligent design, or even a good one.
 

newhope101

Active Member
since you have no interest or intention to discuss what the fossil record says...
maybe you should check this thread out wilson
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-design-universe-teleological-argument-2.html

This thread is full of opinions. So what? When you assert the universe is flawed, How do you know it is? Scientists only have theories about big bang and the universe. It is nowhere near resolved. The fact they their physiscs makes no sense in the big bang scenario could be postulated as evidence that perhaps the mighty big bang did not happen at all for all you know. Researchers have theorised dark matter and balck holes, yet have never seen either. How can anyone say the universe is flawed if they have no idea how it works?

and notice this post in regards to complex, purposeful and orderly universe which is indeed flawed...


At the energy levels that prevailed during the Planck epoch the four fundamental forces—electromagnetism, gravitation, weak nuclear interaction, and strong nuclear interaction—may all have the same strength, so they are possibly unified in one fundamental force. Little is known about this epoch, and different theories propose different scenarios. General relativity predicts a gravitational singularity before this time, but under these conditions the theory is expected to break down due to quantum effects. Physicists hope that proposed theories of quantum gravitation, such as string theory, loop quantum gravity, and causal sets, will eventually lead to a better understanding of this epoch.
Timeline of the Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



What you have is a theory that breaks down, hardly the platform to sprook from.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Actually we know of lots of black holes.... we can indeed "see" them thanks to the massive amounts of x-rays they spew out as they draw in particles.

Chandra Press Room :: Never Before Seen: Two Supermassive Black Holes in Same Galaxy :: November 19, 2002

For example an image of a black hole from the side showing the extragalactic jets of x-rays thrown off.
ngc4261_small.gif


here are less pretty, more raw data examples
figure1.jpg


wa:do
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
At the energy levels that prevailed during the Planck epoch the four fundamental forces—electromagnetism, gravitation, weak nuclear interaction, and strong nuclear interaction—may all have the same strength, so they are possibly unified in one fundamental force. Little is known about this epoch, and different theories propose different scenarios. General relativity predicts a gravitational singularity before this time, but under these conditions the theory is expected to break down due to quantum effects. Physicists hope that proposed theories of quantum gravitation, such as string theory, loop quantum gravity, and causal sets, will eventually lead to a better understanding of this epoch.
Timeline of the Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



What you have is a theory that breaks down, hardly the platform to sprook from.

so really, no one knows...except for creationists, is that right?




btw, what does sprook mean?
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
:facepalm:
was it orderly or chaotic...? hmmm. from observing the world around me i would say chaotic and indifferent...
I'm talking about the Big Bang, man. Chaotic, I understand. But what do you mean by "indifferent?" To whom?
"From observing the world around you?" Your surroundings are not the whole universe and it doesn't matter to me how you keep it. How does that compare to the Big Bang?
Have you observed chaotic conditions in the UNIVERSE? Where in the universe? Go ahead and make your comparison.
it was an event with no design and no purpose...
I didn't ask you that, but, now that you've made the claim, let me see you prove it!

There is design to an atom.
"The electrons—in the case of the hydrogen atom, one single electron—whirl through space around the atom’s nucleus billions of times every millionth of a second, thus providing shape to the atom and causing it to behave as if it were solid. It would take nearly 1,840 electrons to equal the mass of a proton or a neutron. Both the proton and the neutron are about 100,000 times smaller than the entire atom itself!

To get some idea of how empty an atom is, try to visualize the nucleus of a hydrogen atom in relation to the atom’s orbiting electron. If that nucleus, consisting of a single proton, were the size of a tennis ball, its orbiting electron would be about two miles [3 km] away!" (AWAKE! 00 8/22 p. 4 published by JWs)
It is the smallest unit of an element that retains its chemical identity. Its nucleus is surrounded by protons, neutrons and electrons, so that the atom itself is at least 99.9999999999999 percent space! It's components have known, necessary functions.

The universe is similarly constructed, therefore, there is design to the universe.
why would you know otherwise?
From observing the world - earth and its surrounding orbiting objects through films, videos and books. NONE of them show chaos.
1787257.jpg
bxp62560.jpg
u10355767.jpg

CB033645.jpg



Which of your information media show chaos?
i'd say think but you seem pretty confident in your knowledge of the universe no one has observed.
No more than you are about abiogenesis which no one has observed.
that is your dilemma...
On the contrary - the dilemma is yours because you made the claims with no proof.
now that we settled that...
Not nearly so half-fast!
You won't get past making absurd claims without proving them.
are tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis and disease designed?
I'll let you answer for yourself:
Evidence of design is discernible.
Here is a picture of a hurricane, a tornado and a tsunami.
Do you discern evidence of design?

bxp210418.jpg
KS75526.jpg
k3456693.jpg


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( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Have you observed chaotic conditions in the UNIVERSE?

Yes. We sure have....

Where in the universe?

Hubble observations of supernova reveal composition of 'star guts' pouring out
"The team detected significant brightening of the emissions from Supernova 1987A, which were consistent with some theoretical predictions about how supernovae interact with their immediate galactic environment. Discovered in 1987, Supernova 1987A is the closest exploding star to Earth to be detected since 1604 and resides in the nearby Large Magellanic Cloud, a dwarf galaxy adjacent to our own Milky Way Galaxy."


There is design to an atom.


Only because you perceive it to be.....

case in point....

Snowflake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

images
images
images
[URL="http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://files.sharenator.com/Snowflake-s273x300-109685-580.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sharenator.com/profile/juniper/comments/&usg=__EdP0SeRzOltmNqkUoSBBC4izKJc=&h=300&w=273&sz=50&hl=en&start=0&sig2=OjMh_-O3RHFJuAy5pbUMZQ&zoom=1&tbnid=eIGAn9gfLPwN_M:&tbnh=141&tbnw=130&ei=-VuRTeD0MOHo0gG-q4H6Dg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsnowflake%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D574%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=126&vpy=215&dur=1658&hovh=235&hovw=214&tx=128&ty=128&oei=D1yRTYD9KoKa0QGwldC_Dg&page=1&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0"]
[/URL]
We know exactly how they're formed and none of it is designed. There's no designer crafting every single snowflake.
[URL="http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://files.sharenator.com/Snowflake-s273x300-109685-580.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sharenator.com/profile/juniper/comments/&usg=__EdP0SeRzOltmNqkUoSBBC4izKJc=&h=300&w=273&sz=50&hl=en&start=0&sig2=OjMh_-O3RHFJuAy5pbUMZQ&zoom=1&tbnid=eIGAn9gfLPwN_M:&tbnh=141&tbnw=130&ei=-VuRTeD0MOHo0gG-q4H6Dg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsnowflake%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D574%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=126&vpy=215&dur=1658&hovh=235&hovw=214&tx=128&ty=128&oei=D1yRTYD9KoKa0QGwldC_Dg&page=1&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0"]
[/URL]
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I'm talking about the Big Bang, man. Chaotic, I understand. But what do you mean by "indifferent?" To whom?
"From observing the world around you?" Your surroundings are not the whole universe and it doesn't matter to me how you keep it. How does that compare to the Big Bang?
Have you observed chaotic conditions in the UNIVERSE? Where in the universe? Go ahead and make your comparison.
I didn't ask you that, but, now that you've made the claim, let me see you prove it!

There is design to an atom.
"The electrons—in the case of the hydrogen atom, one single electron—whirl through space around the atom’s nucleus billions of times every millionth of a second, thus providing shape to the atom and causing it to behave as if it were solid. It would take nearly 1,840 electrons to equal the mass of a proton or a neutron. Both the proton and the neutron are about 100,000 times smaller than the entire atom itself!

To get some idea of how empty an atom is, try to visualize the nucleus of a hydrogen atom in relation to the atom’s orbiting electron. If that nucleus, consisting of a single proton, were the size of a tennis ball, its orbiting electron would be about two miles [3 km] away!" (AWAKE! 00 8/22 p. 4 published by JWs)
It is the smallest unit of an element that retains its chemical identity. Its nucleus is surrounded by protons, neutrons and electrons, so that the atom itself is at least 99.9999999999999 percent space! It's components have known, necessary functions.

The universe is similarly constructed, therefore, there is design to the universe.
From observing the world - earth and its surrounding orbiting objects through films, videos and books. NONE of them show chaos.
1787257.jpg
bxp62560.jpg
u10355767.jpg

CB033645.jpg



Which of your information media show chaos?
No more than you are about abiogenesis which no one has observed.
On the contrary - the dilemma is yours because you made the claims with no proof.
Not nearly so half-fast!
You won't get past making absurd claims without proving them.
I'll let you answer for yourself:
Evidence of design is discernible.
Here is a picture of a hurricane, a tornado and a tsunami.
Do you discern evidence of design?

bxp210418.jpg
KS75526.jpg
k3456693.jpg


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
nice pictures...
and what would be the purpose of the design, since you know it is designed...?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Draw your own conclusions.
There is such a thing as chaos, you know.


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Wilson

I did that. God had nothing to do with it. I'm asking you for your position, wilson. It's something only you can tell us. (Why are creationists always so evasive? It's almost as though they know they're wrong.)
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
So - why do you question me? You will only get what I've got.
[/FONT]

Wilson

Wilson tells you right here. He refuses to answer any question he finds too challenging. The only reason for this would be knowing that the answer exposes the huge gaping flaws in his position. Such an admission is equivalent to giving up. Thanks Wilson.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I have no intention of doing that.
I just want to know:
Was the big bang orderly or was it chaotic?


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Wilson

If you think the &#8220;big bang&#8221; was some kind of big explosion in space, and if you think it was some kind of chaotic event then you are wrong. It was not an &#8220;explosion&#8221; like the kind of explosions you get when a bomb goes off, and it did not occur &#8220;in space&#8221;. It was an expansion of space.

Also orderly or chaotic are relative terms and not scientific. Physics talks about high entropy and low entropy systems

And more to the point inflationary theory (the idea that space expanded very rapidly, and then the rate of expansion dropped considerably) has some interesting implications for the second law of thermodynamics and entropy.

This is from Brian Greene&#8217;s &#8220;The Fabric of the Cosmos&#8221; (page 316)

&#8230;we seem to be concluding that the inflationary burst smoothes things out and hense lowers total entropy, embodying a physical mechanism &#8211; not just a statistical fluke &#8211; that appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics. Were that the case, either our understanding of the second law or our current reasoning would have to be in error. In actuality though, we don&#8217;t have to face either of these options, because total entropy does not go down as a result of inflation. What really happens during the inflationary burst is that the total entropy goes up, but it goes up much less that it might have. You see by the end of the inflationary phase, space was stretched smooth and so the gravitational contribution to entropy &#8211; the entropy associated with the possible bumpy, nonordered, nonuniform shape of space &#8211; was minimal. However when the inflation field slid down its bowl and relinquished its pent-up energy, it is estimated to have produced 10 to the eightieth power partials of matter and radiation. Such a huge number of particles like a book with a huge number of pages embodies a huge amount of entropy. Thus, even though the gravitational entropy went down, the increase in entropy from the production of all these particles more than compensated. The total entropy increased, just as we expect from the second law.

But, and this is the important point, the inflationary burse, by smoothing out space and ensuring a homogeneous, uniform, low-entropy gravitational field, created a huge gap between what the entropy contribution from was and what it might have been. Overall entropy increase during inflation, but by a paltry amount compared with how much it could have increased. It&#8217;s in this sense that inflation generated a low entropy universe: by the end of inflation, entropy has increased, but by nowhere near the factor by which the spatial expanse had increased. If entropy is likened to property taxes, it would be as if New York City acquired the Sahara Desert. The total property taxes would go up, but by a tiny amount compared with the total increase in acreage.
To put this in simple terms what this means is that although the total entropy in the universe increased (consistent with the second law of thermodynamics) the amount of entropy per cubic meter decreased greatly.




(and btw, does anybody remember that this thread was suppose to be about the fossil record?)
 
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