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What does the fossil record say?

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Newhope... given that:

I have chosen not to have faith in TOE, and I have good reason to do so. I am not ignorant, but have made an informed choice based on the fallibility of your research and the understandings of those more educated in these fields than I.

Why do you have faith in the Bible? Theologians much more educated in the fields of religious studies disagree on the historicity and even the validity of the Bible. If Theology has so much fallibility in it's research then surely you must be an Atheist?

Just going by the standard you set.

Though, I'm sure Wilsoncole will suggest you become a JW for those same reasons. :cool:

wa:do
 

newhope101

Active Member
"Darwinian evolutionary theory was my field of specialization in biology. Among other things, I wrote a textbook on the subject thirty years ago. Meanwhile, however I have become an apostate from Darwinian theory and have described it as part of modernism’s origination myth. Consequently, I certainly agree that biology students at least should have the opportunity to learn about the flaws and limits of Darwin’s theory while they are learning about the theory’s strongest claims."
Dr. Stanley Salthe, Professor Emeritus, Brooklyn College of the City University of New York


"Scientific journals now document many scientific problems and criticisms of evolutionary theory and students need to know about these as well. … Many of the scientific criticisms of which I speak are well known by scientists in various disciplines, including the disciplines of chemistry and biochemistry, in which I have done my work."
Philip S. Skell, Member National Academy of Sciences, Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor at Pennsylvania State University


"The ideology and philosophy of neo-Darwinism which is sold by its adepts as a scientific theoretical foundation of biology seriously hampers the development of science and hides from students the field’s real problems."
Dr. Vladimir L. Voeikov, Professor of Bioorganic, Moscow State University; member of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences

"Darwinian evolution — whatever its other virtues — does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology."
Dr. Philip S. Skell, Member National Academy of Sciences, Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor at Pennsylvania State University

Professor Colin Reeves, Coventry University

Darwinism was an interesting idea in the 19th century, when handwaving explanations gave a plausible, if not properly scientific, framework into which we could fit biological facts. However, what we have learned since the days of Darwin throws doubt on natural selection's ability to create complex biological systems - and we still have little more than handwaving as an argument in its favour.
Professor Colin Reeves
Dept of Mathematical Sciences
Coventry University


Posted by Robert Crowther on September 22, 2008 1:34 PM

Edward Peltzer, University of California, San Diego (Scripps Institute)

As a chemist, the most fascinating issue for me revolves around the origin of life. Before life began, there was no biology, only chemistry -- and chemistry is the same for all time. What works (or not) today, worked (or not) back in the beginning. So, our ideas about what happened on Earth prior to the emergence of life are eminently testable in the lab. And what we have seen thus far when the reactions are left unguided as they would be in the natural world is not much. Indeed, the decomposition reactions and competing reactions out distance the synthetic reactions by far. It is only when an intelligent agent (such as a scientist or graduate student) intervenes and "tweaks" the reactions conditions "just right" do we see any progress at all, and even then it is still quite limited and very far from where we need to get. Thus, it is the very chemistry that speaks of a need for something more than just time and chance. And whether that be simply a highly specified set of initial conditions (fine-tuning) or some form of continual guidance until life ultimately emerges is still unknown. But what we do know is the random chemical reactions are both woefully insufficient and are often working against the pathways needed to succeed. For these reasons I have serious doubts about whether the current Darwinian paradigm will ever make additional progress in this area.
Edward Peltzer
Ph.D. Oceanography, University of California, San Diego (Scripps Institute)
Associate Editor, Marine Chemistry


Posted by Robert Crowther on September 2, 2008 3:16 PM

Dissent From Darwin Blog



So the fact is ... it is not just I and the creationists on RF that have cause for concern.

These researchers do not necessarily believe creation is the answer. However they are skeptical in that TOE does not provide the answers either.

It really comes down to choice. Do you believe in the assertions of TOE despite the pitfalls and inadequacies or not, regardless of religious beliefs.

I have chosen not to have faith in TOE, and I have good reason to do so. I am not ignorant, but have made an informed choice based on the fallibility of your research and the understandings of those more educated in these fields than I.

It is the RF members that criticise creationists unduly that are the ignorant and misguided population here.


I reiterate it is RF members that are ignorant of the fact that very educated and credentialed persons are also skeptical of TOE.

Evolution News & Views: February 2009 Archives

If your life is so boring and uneventfull that you take delight in ridiculing creationists as a passtime then all the more pathetic you appear in your sad attempt to justify your own existence. Some of you are here all day with no life to speak of. No wonder I question mental health issues in some of you. If any of you had a shred of decency or ethics about you, you would be broad minded enough to understand my skepticism, at least.

There is plenty wrong with TOE and ignorance alone blinds many here from acknowledging it and feeds the constant insults.

Many of you behave like fanatical religionists, many of you hate like fanatical religionists, therefore many of you ARE fanatical religionists that adhere to the teachings and myths of the theory of evolution...Darwinists are just another faith that believes what they wish to believe..eg Catholic, Ba hai, JW, Darwinist, Mormon, Jew, etc
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Lot's of credentialed and educated people are also skeptical of the Bible... what is your point?

I'm not ridiculing here and I certainly don't hate anyone in this discussion... I'm trying to show you how your argument is relying on several fallacies.

wa:do
 

outhouse

Atheistically
more blah blah blah blah.

will you ever realize ToE is fact as gravity.

if you have so much passion go out and take a biology class and prove the proffessor wrong and see how that works out for ya

YOUR ALL TALK AND NO SUBSTANCE
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Fantastic. You can clearly see the biased thinking. Despite concluding the footprints showed 'modern features' they have countered and coloured the evidence to suit the status quo. And don't foget you already have other researchers saying the dino to bird paradigm is incorrect, anyway, not just little old me. Basically the upshot of it all is your researchers have no idea!

Are you serious? There was NO bias here at all.

Geotimes - June 2002 - Bird Fossil Feet (Your source says)

"This finding poses many questions regarding the origin of birds and the relationships of this unknown group of theropod dinosaurs with other groups of dinosaurs,"

There was no bias in this statement. Do you actually know what the word (bias), in this context, means?

"It's significant because we find footprints with morphology identical to modern birds in rocks that predate, by 55 million years, the first record of true Aves."

Again, NO bias in the statement at all. I could see if he explicitly said...('well we see these prints in old rock but they couldn't have been birds or a bird like animal'), but that's not what he said. Scientist try to proceed with caution as to not make definitive and unfounded claims where no evidence is present. These scientist offered their educated opinion but stressed that not enough data was available (i.e. fossils) to conclude either way.

Other paleontologists, such as Lockley agree, "The evidence is interesting and these do look like bird tracks, but at the moment we can't know if they are true birds. It's important, however, not to dismiss the track evidence as invalid until the skeletons are found."

This is the (proceeding with caution) until more evidence is found.

Again I say the fossils are there to be found

So what....who cares what you say? You can't go around making claims unless you're in a position to produce some evidence. These scientist have to go with the current evidence. All that is there are tracks and no skeletal remains.

just like your common ancestors that are just mythical at the moment.

Here we go again. Have you now figured out where this is supposed to fit?
220px-Neanderthalensis.jpg


Have you figured out how to make a women from strictly male genetic material?


You still ignore the fact that they had modern bird features.

No I haven't and it's been addressed a few times already by using the same source you linked to.

What do you expect your researchers are going to say when evidence flys in the face of the status quo?

What are you doing now that current evidence flies in the face of your religious status quo? The animal was "bird like" and was not a perching bird. This is far different than what is laid out in your creation myth where your god created birds fully formed, flying and perching......and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth....


The main point here is that your researchers are clearly in debate

Once again, if you truly knew anything about science you'd know that this happens in every field of science. But only you seemed to be surprised that this....


So the fact is ... it is not just I and the creationists on RF that have cause for concern.

These researchers do not necessarily believe creation is the answer. However they are skeptical in that TOE does not provide the answers either.


How does this help your position? We've been saying that ongoing debates is how science is done. But you clearly admit neither are really sided with "creationism" as an alternative. It sounds like desperation and a appeal to authority.

It really comes down to choice. Do you believe in the assertions of TOE

I accept the fact of Evolution. What's your point?

despite the pitfalls and inadequacies or not, regardless of religious beliefs.

Despite the so-called "pitfalls" it is more plausible of an explanation of the diversity of life than the myth that you can produce a woman strictly by cloning a man.

 
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newhope101

Active Member
Newhope... given that:


[/size][/size]Why do you have faith in the Bible? Theologians much more educated in the fields of religious studies disagree on the historicity and even the validity of the Bible. If Theology has so much fallibility in it's research then surely you must be an Atheist?

Just going by the standard you set.

Though, I'm sure Wilsoncole will suggest you become a JW for those same reasons. :cool:

wa:do



:no:. It is about choice and the disrespect given to anyone with an alternative belief...ie fanatisism, bias, closed mindedness, hypocricy, religious hatred etc.

I say those that are skeptical of TOE have good reason to be so inclined. You and your cohorts are the fanatics that conitunually allude to stupidity and ignorance as the only basis for non acceptance of TOE, wholeheartedly. I have proven that assertion is an incorrect asumption put forward out of hatred and desperation.

I see TOE as being up the creek without a paddle, and it is my choice to do so, with good reason.

tcrn170l.jpg



Evolution News & Views: February 2009 Archives
Evolution Debunked
Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
:no:. It is about choice and the disrespect given to anyone with an alternative belief...ie fanatisism, bias, closed mindedness, hypocricy, religious hatred etc.

I say those that are skeptical of TOE have good reason to be so inclined. You and your cohorts are the fanatics that conitunually allude to stupidity and ignorance as the only basis for non acceptance of TOE, wholeheartedly. I have proven that assertion is an incorrect asumption put forward out of hatred and desperation.

I see TOE as being up the creek without a paddle, and it is my choice to do so, with good reason.

You're having a hard time separating the ToE from the Fossil Record. How about you deal with that as that is the theme of this thread. The ToE works just fine (without) the fossil record. Now....back on tract will you?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
It is about choice and the disrespect given to anyone with an alternative belief...ie fanatisism, bias, closed mindedness, hypocricy, religious hatred etc.
I don't disrespect people for having different beliefs than I do. I generally save that for people who disrespect me first.

You are absolutely free to choose not to believe in evolution... but I'm free to point out when you say something factually incorrect about it.

I say those that are skeptical of TOE have good reason to be so inclined. You and your cohorts are the fanatics that conitunually allude to stupidity and ignorance as the only basis for non acceptance of TOE, wholeheartedly. I have proven that assertion is an incorrect asumption put forward out of hatred and desperation.
Not at all... I know people have lots of reasons and that the most common one is faith in literalism. It is often exaggerated by not knowing what evolution is actually about.

I have never called anyone stupid for not believing in evolution, nor would I.

I certainly don't hate people who choose to believe in Creationism, I definately don't hate anyone on this forum, including you. Hatred is too toxic to the self to be wasted on someone you only encounter in a forum.

I admit I get frustrated with having to repeat myself about simple things and being accused of being a liar... but honestly it's not worth hatred because it's just a forum and ultimately I couldn't give a hoot.

Nor am I desperate, evolution is doing just fine despite the 150 years of creationists insisting that any day now evolution is going to be overturned.

I see TOE as being up the creek without a paddle, and it is my choice to do so, with good reason.
You can see whatever you want... but that doesn't make it scientifically valid. :cool:

wa:do
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
I don't have FAITH in the Theory of Evolution either. I BELIEVE it because it explains EVERYTHING that we know about life as it exists on this planet. And I will continue to believe it until someone presents an alternate theory that explains everything that the Theory of Evolution does, and more.
It does NOT explain the origin of life and there can be no evolution without life.


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( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
Newhope... given that:
[/size][/size]Why do you have faith in the Bible? Theologians much more educated in the fields of religious studies disagree on the historicity and even the validity of the Bible. If Theology has so much fallibility in it's research then surely you must be an Atheist?

Just going by the standard you set.

Though, I'm sure Wilsoncole will suggest you become a JW for those same reasons. :cool:

wa:do
ALL theologians are nincompoops in that they devote their time to feel-good sermonizing and prosperity ministries while their followers languish in ignorance.
They also condone and promote wars, condone, tolerate and excuse all kinds of immorality and sin. They actively reproach the one they claim to worship, attributing to him inconceivable cruelty and stupidity.

That they cannot unite is not an unexpected result of their spiritual prostitution.
They will soon be destroyed - every last one of them.
HE has prophetically described their shocking demise in great detail.

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
ALL theologians are nincompoops in that they devote their time to feel-good sermonizing and prosperity ministries while their followers languish in ignorance.
They also condone and promote wars, condone, tolerate and excuse all kinds of immorality and sin. They actively reproach the one they claim to worship, attributing to him inconceivable cruelty and stupidity.

That they cannot unite is not an unexpected result of their spiritual prostitution.
They will soon be destroyed - every last one of them.
HE has prophetically described their shocking demise in great detail.

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson

I don't think PW's goal was to point out anyone's specific ideology rather she was trying to illustrate that theologians never are in 100% agreement with each other concerning the bible considering newhope is splitting hairs about about there are biologist out there who hold a skepticism with some or all of the ToE.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I don't think PW's goal was to point out anyone's specific ideology rather she was trying to illustrate that theologians never are in 100% agreement with each other concerning the bible considering newhope is splitting hairs about about there are biologist out there who hold a skepticism with some or all of the ToE.
True... but I think Wilsoncole demonstrated that beautifully.

One thing I will always respect about JW's is their absolute insistence that they are the only ones that will survive the second coming. Every other christian will be destroyed utterly. No, hell or purgatory...no second chances.

Even if Wilsoncole agrees with Newhope about evolution being wrong, he will still gladly remind her she is doomed to destruction. That is the fervor of JW faith.

wa:do
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
True... but I think Wilsoncole demonstrated that beautifully.

One thing I will always respect about JW's is their absolute insistence that they are the only ones that will survive the second coming. Every other christian will be destroyed utterly. No, hell or purgatory...no second chances.

Even if Wilsoncole agrees with Newhope about evolution being wrong, he will still gladly remind her she is doomed to destruction. That is the fervor of JW faith.

wa:do

Agreed.....
 

Amill

Apikoros
Geotimes - June 2002 - Bird Fossil Feet


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>(^)<


Wilson

I'm not sure why this is in response to my post. Even if those were modern bird tracks they still wouldn't be from before the existence of the first land animals. So my claim would still stand? :beach:

It does NOT explain the origin of life and there can be no evolution without life.


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( &#8216; .&#8216; )
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Wilson

Fine, the first life "poofed" into existence. Can we move on and discuss evolution and fossils now?
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
It does NOT explain the origin of life and there can be no evolution without life.


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( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson

This one is hard of understanding.

It does NOT explain the origin of life. It's not ABOUT the origin of life. Regardless of the origin of life, ToE explains something else--diversity of species. It also does not explain the structure of atoms, and there can be no evolution without atoms.
 
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