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What does the fossil record say?

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
It's hard to get things across to people who are actively resisting learning them. *sigh* wilson: Forget about evolution for a moment. Suppose you are trying to figure out what's wrong with your car. Your mechanic says, "I've figured out how to fix the second problem. I haven't figured out how to fix the first one, which caused it." That doesn't mean he's wrong about what he did figure out, does it?

Pretend it's atomic chemistry. Scientists have figured out what's in an atom: particles. They haven't figured out what makes up the particles. They're still right about what they have figured out.

We know who your grandparents are. If we don't know who their grandparents are, that doesn't take away from our knowledge of who they are. Get it?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
It is not nearly good enough.
We need to know how things began, not so much how they changed.

The bible nor the notion that "God did it" is good enough. Obviously, over time, life has changed. Evolution tells us how and why. Coming full stop at "God did it" is mentally crippling. In the past almost everything that occurred in nature was attributed to "God" or gods. (i.e. rain, thunder, lightning, earthquakes). We now know none of that has to do with a supernatural as there is a scientific explanation for them.

We used to think that those who were mentally ill were possessed by evil spirits but through scientific research we no longer think this and are, in most cases, able to treat them.

Religious text aren't good enough. They are faith based. To posit the beginning of (women) from the genetic material of men is ludicrous and after so much knowledge in the field of biology it is amazing creationist still cling to this myth unless it can be displayed, scientifically, how such a thing is possible.


"The recent explosive increase of knowledge has only served to magnify the gulf between nonliving and living things. Even the oldest known single-celled organisms have been found to be incomprehensibly complex.


And it has already been shown that "complexity" does not default to a supernatural creator. Behe tried this and it has been refuted.


"The problem for biology is to reach a simple beginning," say astronomers Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe. "Fossil residues of ancient life-forms discovered in the rocks do not reveal a simple beginning. . . . so the evolutionary theory lacks a proper foundation."5 And as information increases, the harder it becomes to explain how microscopic forms of life that are so incredibly complex could have arisen by chance.

Which is why we don't look to Astronomers for biological answers. While this is common amongst creationist the rest of use have enough common sense not to put too much stock in those who lack the qualifications to speak on such matters. It's like some one calling their dentist to ask a question as to why they're having pains in their foot.....:areyoucra


 
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wilsoncole

Active Member
So then creation has no foundation either? Because we can't observably determine how god began.
He is not a creature. He was always there.
Don't ask me how. I just might tell you.
Consider:
If scientists manage to cause life to come about in a lab, what would that prove?


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
It's hard to get things across to people who are actively resisting learning them. *sigh* wilson: Forget about evolution for a moment. Suppose you are trying to figure out what's wrong with your car. Your mechanic says, "I've figured out how to fix the second problem. I haven't figured out how to fix the first one, which caused it." That doesn't mean he's wrong about what he did figure out, does it?
Just means I'm going to have more problems down the road.
Pretend it's atomic chemistry. Scientists have figured out what's in an atom: particles. They haven't figured out what makes up the particles. They're still right about what they have figured out.
Until they start telling me that these same particles managed to arrange themselves into living beings.
We know who your grandparents are. If we don't know who their grandparents are, that doesn't take away from our knowledge of who they are. Get it?
When you start telling me their foreparents were animals, then we got a problem. And I'm going to keep telling you about it.
Get it?

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
When you start telling me their foreparents were animals, then we got a problem. And I'm going to keep telling you about it.
Get it?

No one is simply saying they were animals. The fact of the matter is....they were animals and remained to be animals. Man is the ultimate animal on the planet.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
he will just argue life was created just like ole magic man was supposed to do.

snapped his angry little fingers and life formed, then he was so ticked off when his science teacher gave him a D- for his creation, he decoded to flood the place and start over
 

outhouse

Atheistically
it would be one thing if you could believe the bible because its accurate.

when we know what a utter failure the bible is regarding accuracy with no credibility

it is amazing to me in this modern time people still defend this ancient barbaric practice
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Just means I'm going to have more problems down the road.
Until they start telling me that these same particles managed to arrange themselves into living beings.
When you start telling me their foreparents were animals, then we got a problem. And I'm going to keep telling you about it.
Get it?

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<


Wilson

I think I may have given up on you before. I should have realized that metaphors would be lost on you. *sigh* *sigh* As I said, it's hard to educate people who are resisting learning.

Yes, you will have problems down the road. He's still right.
It makes no difference to science whether the question involves living things or not. The process and principles are the same. You can solve one problem or one part of a problem without solving the whole thing. Obviously. Forget about evolution. Forget about animals. If I know who your grandparents are, I know who they are, regardless of whether I know who your great-great-grandparents are. If I know ToE is correct, then I know it's correct, regardless of whether we understand abiogenesis. They are two different things.

This is not a complicated concept. Why do you think you're having such a hard time understanding it?
 

newhope101

Active Member
I see some of you trying to set Wilsoncole up against me. It will not work. I have very much respect for the JW's. This is one faith that I have alot of time for.

There is no division beween us in relation to none of your evidence being solid, robust, and is pure straw grabbing. We are solid on this, I am sure.

I am as open to old earth as new earth. I appreciate that all evo modelling is biased. Therefore any version of creationism is yet to be established.

In relation to my evidence...do you really think that I am going to accept the flimsy refutes put up to it or anything for that matter from researchers that cannot agree amongst themselves on major issues eg birds and other links.

It is just that many "toe faith" holders here are religious biggots and outdated in their attitudes as far as the advanced western world is concerned.

ScienceDaily (Feb. 16, 2011) &#8212; "Too simple" and "not so fast" suggest biological anthropologists from the George Washington University and New York University about the origins of human ancestry. In the upcoming issue of the journal Nature, the anthropologists question the claims that several prominent fossil discoveries made in the last decade are our human ancestors. Instead, the authors offer a more nuanced explanation of the fossils' place in the Tree of Life. They conclude that instead of being our ancestors the fossils more likely belong to extinct distant cousins.
Fossils may look like human bones: Biological anthropologists question claims for human ancestry
Ardi may be more ape than human : Nature News

So basically this research supports my assertion that many of your fossils, such as Ardi, that are meant to be human ancestors, are nothing more than varieties of non-human primates, some of which are now extinct. It appears that these are arguing woodlands or not and this is the basis of whether or not Ardi is in the human or gorilla line. Seriously, this is commic strip level entertainment.

To top it off they have found what they believe is a human foot bone that these researchers are attributing to Lucy. It was found alone. Lucy has curved fingers for arboreal life, and she supposedly has human like feet for bipedal walking. I have produced other evidence of some evo reserchers suggesting gorilla traits and misrepresentation as a human ancestor. What a mess this poor creature must have been. Your stories are truly fantastic and incredible.

None of Lucy mob were found with feet. They were sketched in. This single bone is your evidence and not found with the rest of any fossil. This in itself appears suspicious to me, regardless of the explanations. Other evidence of human like footprints have been dated same. I propose that this single bone and the footprints are evidence that homo sapiens were already here, fully formed 3mya. and chimppy Lucy was just another non human primate and not anything that was on its way to humanity.

Foot bone suggests Lucy's kin had arched foot, for walking

It is about interpretation of the evidence. Your researchers find clear support for the creation and require a plethora of theoretical assumptions to turn such evidence into an evolutionary support.

Wilsoncole....it does not matter how they flutter, they can never take away the fact that despite all their advances, and ability to produce every effect of nature in the lab, they are unable to create one living cell from non life under controlled laboratory conditions. How much more unlikely is this to happen in the wild? These will fluff about and produce their theoretical evidences, their plethora of maybes and possibly's, their universe is seeded line, and stupid questions 'like what is life' and every aside they can think of, and conveniently forget they have never done it and they cannot do it. They will never do it, because God is the creator of life.
 
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The fossil record is at best patchy for reasons that are well understood which contributes to the difficulties we have in determining where a fossil should lie in evolutionary history. Often we have to settle for fossile of organisms which were related to the ancestors of a species and this is also true for humans. Even if we hadn't found a single fossil there is sufficient evidence from genetics to demonstrate that humans shared a common ancestor with other primates, estimate how closely related we are to them and estimate when the divergence occured. I'm not saying that there is a lack of fossil evidence to support human evolution but rather that its absence isn't a problem for human evolution.

primates.png


Neither the fossil or genetic evidence supports the creationist claim that humans were created in their current form and are unrelated to other primates.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I appreciate that all evo modelling is biased.

I see you're still peddling this word and haven't a clue as to what it means. Your religious view of the diversity of life is biased. It precludes you from accepting any evidence that would contradict it. You give people the impression that those biologist who accept the fact of evolution are some how non-theist and have an agenda. If so this is far from the truth. There are plenty of theist biologist who are simply presenting what the current evidence suggest (i.e Ken Miller). If this is not what you're insinuating then I'd like to know how you come to the conclusion that the field of non-theist and theist biologist are biased.

In relation to my evidence...do you really think that I am going to accept the flimsy refutes put up to it or anything for that matter from researchers that cannot agree amongst themselves on major issues eg birds and other links.

You should considering you've been shown to be incorrect pretty much every step of the way (i.e. birds and bird like creatures). It's not surprising though. You've presented no empirical evidence of "God" nor that this god, out of the thousands of gods in various cultures, is the one responsible for "creation"....

It is just that many "toe faith" holders here are religious biggots and outdated in their attitudes as far as the advanced western world is concerned.

Insults can be a way to deflect ones shortcomings. You should try and work on that. But just so you know...if I'm to be branded a " religious bigot" then at least I'm consitent in my bigotry. I'm a non believer in all gods and supernatural claims from every religion on the planet. I'd rather be a Consistent Bigot than a hypocritical bigot.

ScienceDaily (Feb. 16, 2011) &#8212; "Too simple" and "not so fast" suggest biological anthropologists from the George Washington University and New York University about the origins of human ancestry. In the upcoming issue of the journal Nature, the anthropologists question the claims that several prominent fossil discoveries made in the last decade are our human ancestors. Instead, the authors offer a more nuanced explanation of the fossils' place in the Tree of Life. They conclude that instead of being our ancestors the fossils more likely belong to extinct distant cousins.

What part of this article should I be disagreeing with? Should I also disagree with,

The scientific community has long concluded that the human lineage diverged from that of the chimpanzee six to eight million years ago. It is easy to differentiate between the fossils of a modern-day chimpanzee and a modern human. However, it is more difficult to differentiate between the two species when examining fossils that are closer to their common ancestor, as is the case with Orrorin, Sahelanthropus, and Ardipithecus.
So basically this research supports my assertion that many of your fossils, such as Ardi, that are meant to be human ancestors, are nothing more than varieties of non-human primates, some of which are now extinct. It appears that these are arguing woodlands or not and this is the basis of whether or not Ardi is in the human or gorilla line. Seriously, this is commic strip level entertainment.

While scientific nuances are debated on....and debated on (ALL THE TIME) in (ALL FIELDS OF SCIENCE)....it's clear they agree that humans and primates share a common ancestors....

Do you have a link that shows you can make a human female from the genetic material of a human male?
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
A virus can be "killed"/"neutralized".... Killed sounds better in advertising.

If viruses are alive, then clearly life doesn't need any fancy cellular machinery to survive. So the argument that the complexity of modern single celled organisms is no longer valid.

Viroids are even simpler than viruses. And Prions are the simplest of them all... prions are single proteins that reproduce themselves and can be "killed".

So apparently "life" can be a single protein if you define life as simply something that can be killed.

And yes, we have made life in the lab... especially if you define viruses as alive.

wa:do

wa:do
 
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