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What does the fossil record say?

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
If there is a "god" it would more likely communicate with us through his creations and one of those creations are its fossil records and not humanity's fairy tales of what they read into nature through thousands of different creation stories over hundreds of millennia. So with that in mind the Bible would be deemed by such a god as blasphemous fiction.
 

Krok

Active Member
So now you are reduced to "God created quarks" because it has been shows that supernatural intervention is not needed to create atoms.
That’s desperately sad Wilson.
Classic God of the gaps argument. As I understand it (I'm no physicist) , is that quark formation is very close to being discovered. It doesn't seem as if any form of supernatural agent is necessary for it according to research so far. I wonder what the next "God of the gaps" argument will be. Not a lot of gaps left.
 
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Krok

Active Member
Where did you get the material? Did you make that, too?
Besides.....
If that is the case, you only managed to prove that life HAD to have a creator.
Very simple, really.
Wilson
A natural creator. One that leaves verifiable evidence that he exists. One that used natural substances to create another natural substance. One that openly talks and communicates with every other natural organism in the world who wants to communicate with him. One that even appears on tv. One that doesn't hide. One that doesn't claim to be able to do miracles. One that's not going to burn anything in his his creation for all eternity. One that doesn't claim to know it all. One that doesn't "need" or even want to be worshipped. One that exists. Nothing supernatural about this creator.
 
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wilsoncole

Active Member


Because most were. I'm sorry but this cat and mouse game is quite boring.
Boring? I responded to the man in the outhouse when he commented on the hydrological cycle. You injected yourself into the discussion that you now deem boring. You can just as easily dismiss yourself from it.
Yes, some of the people back then were nomadic and they were traders with other people and other cultures (i.e. Egypt as well as Arabia). Knowledge as well as other stories were passed around. Yes, people knew that rivers fed the sea.... etc...etc... Knowledge that the rivers fed the sea was not new information. The Sumerians as well as the Egyptians held this knowledge. Remember, the Sumerians are an older civilization dating back way before the biblical writing. Supposedly your Moses left Egypt and took followers with him so the knowledge of irrigation and hydrology existed with the Egyptians before Moses' "exodus".
The PDF I linked below gives more info on their endeavors.


http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0012/001281/128170eo.pdf

"The people, however, must have had extensive
practical understanding of running water, else they could not have
operated a large and complicated irrigation system on the
Mesopotamian plain. They had such a system at least as early
as 4000 B.C., and perhaps much earlier."
You wasted your time! Nobody's talking about irrigation systems. We're talking about the world's hydrological system. Or didn't you notice?
You don't seem to understand that none of these people wrote Ecclesiastes 1:7. Solomon had no dealings with Egyptians, Sumerians, Arabians or any such people, neither did he travel to their countries of origin.
Hydrology - The Canadian Encyclopedia
"Practical application of hydrological principles preceded a thorough understanding. As early as 4000 BC the Sumerians developed a complicated, extensive irrigation system which lasted some 5000 years. Large-scale flood-irrigation agriculture in the Nile Valley developed at least as early as 3400 BC. In China waterworks date from before 2000 BC. The earliest known hydrological measurements date to 3500-3000 BC, when nilometers were first used to measure the levels of the Nile."


http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Hy-La/Irrigation-Systems-Ancient.html
"The Assyrians also developed extensive public works. Sargon II, invading Armenia in 714 B.C.E. , discovered the qanat (Arabic name) or kariz (Persian name), which is a tunnel used to bring water from an underground source in the hills down to the foothills."
Again - we are not talking about irrigation systems, so all of this is irrelevant. The world's water cycle is what the man in the outhouse referred to and that is what I am addressing.
Yes, there were most definitely maps back then.
Who's arguing about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps
"The oldest known world map dates back to ancient Babylonia from the 9th century BCE"
I'm in no way saying Solomon had access to a map
That is what you are saying because you applied access to maps to Solomon's words!
but the knowledge of the surrounding areas was not that much of a mystery. So once again. The knowledge that rivers flowed from the mountains and into the sea was well known before the writings of the bible even took place.
Those are not the points of contention so they are irrelevant.
You keep forgetting to mention how they knew that sea water becomes rain for the whole earth.
Surely we have severely digressed from the main topic. How about the fossil record. Where does the fossil I posted fit into the supposed "human creation" if man (Adam) was created fully formed?
Nobody requested your input on this point. You are under no obligation to participate.
But that is what Bible believers mean when we speak of Divine inspiration. They wrote of things that even they did not understand. “So he came beside where I was standing, but when he came I got terrified so that I fell upon my face. And he proceeded to say to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end.”” (Daniel 8:17)

“And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.” (Daniel 12:9-10)


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Wilson
 
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wilsoncole

Active Member
So now you are reduced to "God created quarks" because it has been shows that supernatural intervention is not needed to create atoms.

Thats desperately sad Wilson.
Originally Posted by wilsoncole
Where did you get the material? Did you make that, too?
Where did you get the material? Did you make that, too?


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Wilson
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
A natural creator. One that leaves verifiable evidence that he exists. One that used natural substances to create another natural substance. One that openly talks and communicates with every other natural organism in the world who wants to communicate with him. One that even appears on tv. One that doesn't hide. One that doesn't claim to be able to do miracles. One that's not going to burn anything in his his creation for all eternity. One that doesn't claim to know it all. One that doesn't "need" or even want to be worshipped. One that exists. Nothing supernatural about this creator.
Oh! You're looking for a creator to your liking - one that YOU created.
You won't find him.
Believers do not find him to be the way you describe.
See Reply # 1944.
Maybe that will help you to see why you do not understand him at all.


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Wilson
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Boring? I responded to the man in the outhouse when he commented on the hydrological cycle. You injected yourself into the discussion that you now deem boring. You can just as easily dismiss yourself from it.

This is an open debate. You don't have a monopoly on who responds to you. If it were that important and you didn't want anyone else to comment you could have easily PM him. Since PM is not the structure of this thread I will comment to whomever I like regardless if they like or not or want me to or not...so deal with it.

You wasted your time! Nobody's talking about irrigation systems. We're talking about the world's hydrological system. Or didn't you notice?

It shows that they had an understanding of the cycle in order to setup sophisticated irrigation systems. They knew the clean water made it from the mountains so they setup their villages in these areas along the rivers. As in the case of the Sumerians and the Egyptians you can't setup a decent irrigation system unless you understand the hydrological cycle and can have a some what decent guess concerning the start and end of the rainy seasons. Here on the east coast March through April is the best time to re-seed the lawn and fertilize because this is the time when we get the most rain and the warmer temperatures. Additionally we re-seed once more during the fall rainy season to promote new growth for the next spring.

Principles of water resources ... - Google Books
"Many ancient cultures utilized the science of hydrology to create sophisticated practices to control or moving surface water. This was especially true for cultures in arid settings such as the Anasazi Indians of Southwest Colorado, the Sumerians along the Tigris and Euphrates river and the Egyptians along the Nile river."

So basically what Anthropologist are saying is that the knowledge of hydrology was well known for a very long time. Your bible is written much, much, much later, well after the Sumerian and Egyptian civilizations that predate the Jewish culture.

You don't seem to understand that none of these people wrote Ecclesiastes 1:7.

Even so, the understanding, as history clearly shows, was already well known by others before the this scroll. The Sumerians knew, the Egyptians knew and researchers contend that the Hindus knew as far back as the Vedic period as indicated in their scriptures.

Solomon had no dealings with Egyptians, Sumerians

Solomon (king of Israel) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

And yet one of his wives was from Egypt as the encyclopedia says. Additionally the encyclopedia says the following about Solomon.

"Palestine was destined to be an important centre because of its strategic location for trade by land and sea. By land, it alone connects Asia and Africa, and, along with Egypt, it is the only area with ports on the Atlantic-Mediterranean and Red Sea&#8211;Indian Ocean waterways. It was Solomon who fulfilled the commercial destiny of Palestine and brought it to its greatest heights. The nature of his empire was predominantly commercial&#8212;it served him and friendly rulers to increase trade by land and sea."



, Arabians or any such people, neither did he travel to their countries of origin.

Your very own bible says he did have dealings with Arabia. :facepalm:

1Kings 10:
Beside [that he had] of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country.

Basically it says....
This did not include the additional revenue he received from merchants and traders, all the kings of Arabia, and the governors of the land.

In that same chapter it shows he received goods from Egypt and other surrounding countries....but I'm sure if I dig a little more I'd find more verses showing his dealings with others.

That is what you are saying because you applied access to maps to Solomon's words!

Nope. It was to illustrate that they had an understanding of the land around them. Solomon, as you can see from the encyclopedia as well as your own bible, did business and had women from everywhere so he as well as those who were around him had intimate knowledge of the mountains and the life cycle of water considering these same cultures of people he dealt with knew this centuries before the scroll was written.


How about that fossil I posted. Where does it fit if man was created fully formed?
 
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David M

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by wilsoncole
Where did you get the material? Did you make that, too?
Where did you get the material? Did you make that, too?


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Wilson

As I said before. The gap into which you are trying to squeeze your god gets smaller every day.

Sad.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
As I said before. The gap into which you are trying to squeeze your god gets smaller every day.

Sad.

frubals for the truth.


there was a time when it rained to much god was angry

there was a time when thunder boomed and god was angry

there was a time people thought god made the sun rise and fall

there was a time when people thought god made man from his breath in dirt

there was a time when people thought god made the moon to be a light for nightfall

there was a time when people thought god made the earth

and soon it will be

there was a time people thought god created the universe


its just a matter of time before the myths are all put behind us, or used properly
 

wilsoncole

Active Member
This is an open debate. You don't have a monopoly on who responds to you. If it were that important and you didn't want anyone else to comment you could have easily PM him. Since PM is not the structure of this thread I will comment to whomever I like regardless if they like or not or want me to or not...so deal with it.
Then why are you complaining about it being boring? My point is - if you don't like the discussion you do not have to participate. You're not tied here, you know.
Apparently you don't really think its so boring.
It shows that they had an understanding of the cycle in order to setup sophisticated irrigation systems.
Which cycle? Again, we're not talking about irrigation.
They knew the clean water made it from the mountains so they setup their villages in these areas along the rivers.
That has nothing to do with the hydrological cycle of the earth.
As in the case of the Sumerians and the Egyptians you can't setup a decent irrigation system unless you understand the hydrological cycle and can have a some what decent guess concerning the start and end of the rainy seasons.
That, apparently, is YOUR guess You have not established that either.
Principles of water resources ... - Google Books
"Many ancient cultures utilized the science of hydrology to create sophisticated practices to control or moving surface water. This was especially true for cultures in arid settings such as the Anasazi Indians of Southwest Colorado, the Sumerians along the Tigris and Euphrates river and the Egyptians along the Nile river."
Irrelevant!
So basically what Anthropologist are saying is that the knowledge of hydrology was well known for a very long time. Your bible is written much, much, much later, well after the Sumerian and Egyptian civilizations that predate the Jewish culture.
Once again, you miss the point! Solomon did not write about hydrology. He described the world's water cycle. You seem to have trouble understanding that.
Even so, the understanding, as history clearly shows, was already well known by others before the this scroll. The Sumerians knew, the Egyptians knew and researchers contend that the Hindus knew as far back as the Vedic period as indicated in their scriptures.
Knew what? We're still not discussing hydrology. Yet none of their works described the hydrological cycle. If you had proof you would have included it.
Solomon (king of Israel) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
And yet one of his wives was from Egypt as the encyclopedia says. Additionally the encyclopedia says the following about Solomon.

"Palestine was destined to be an important centre because of its strategic location for trade by land and sea. By land, it alone connects Asia and Africa, and, along with Egypt, it is the only area with ports on the Atlantic-Mediterranean and Red Sea–Indian Ocean waterways. It was Solomon who fulfilled the commercial destiny of Palestine and brought it to its greatest heights. The nature of his empire was predominantly commercial—it served him and friendly rulers to increase trade by land and sea."
Your source is full of lies and distortions. For example, it says:
"As soon as he acceded to the throne, Solomon consolidated his position by liquidating his opponents ruthlessly, one by one. Once rid of his foes, he established his friends in the key posts of the military, governmental, and religious institutions. In an ancient Middle Eastern empire, this was almost the only means of establishing stable government."
None of this is true. I wonder why they furnished no proof of that!

"During Solomon’s reign (of 40 years) there was peace, and “Judah and Israel were many, like the grains of sand that are by the sea for multitude, eating and drinking and rejoicing.” “And Judah and Israel continued to dwell in security, everyone under his own vine and under his own fig tree, from Dan to Beer-sheba, all the days of Solomon.”—1Ki 4:20, 25; Insight Vol. 1, p. 748.
It also says:
“Solomon also strengthened his position through marital alliances.”
There was only one such alliance.

“A different situation prevailed with the entry of the nation of Israel into Canaan, the Land of Promise. The Sovereign God had given Israel full right to the land in fulfillment of his promise to their forefathers. They were, therefore, not entering as alien residents, and Jehovah prohibited their making alliances with the pagan nations in the land. (Ex 23:31-33; 34:11-16)
They were to be subject only to God’s laws and statutes, not to those of the nations due for eviction. (Le 18:3, 4; 20:22-24)
They were particularly warned against forming marriage alliances with such nations. Such alliances would intimately involve them not only with pagan wives but with pagan relatives and their false religious practices and customs, and this would result in apostasy and a snare.—De 7:2-4; Ex 34:16; Jos 23:12, 13.(Insight vol. 1 p.75)

Your very own bible says he did have dealings with Arabia.
1Kings 10:
Beside [that he had] of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country.

Basically it says....
This did not include the additional revenue he received from merchants and traders, all the kings of Arabia, and the governors of the land.

In that same chapter it shows he received goods from Egypt and other surrounding countries....but I'm sure if I dig a little more I'd find more verses showing his dealings with others.
Apparently he did!
Nope. It was to illustrate that they had an understanding of the land around them. Solomon, as you can see from the encyclopedia as well as your own bible, did business and had women from everywhere so he as well as those who were around him had intimate knowledge of the mountains and the life cycle of water considering these same cultures of people he dealt with knew this centuries before the scroll was written.
Yet you cannot find a single description of the hydrologic system matching Solomon’s in any ancient book of the same age.
What you have done here is, not prove your claims, but resort to conjecture. That is not proof.
Show me the writings of these ancient peoples describing the hydrologic cycle and I’ll be satisfied.
If you can’t, you’re just flapping your gums.

How about that fossil I posted. Where does it fit if man was created fully formed?[/quote]
First, you have to get past the problems with mutations. They do not support the claims that they improve any organisms.
"The limits of selection due to the absence of hoped-for positive mutations were most severely felt in mutation breeding at the end of the 1970s and in the 1980s after some 40 years of worldwide mutation research with cultivated plants as maize, rice, barley, peas, and others.

Mutation induction was originally thought to revolutionize plant breeding and substitute the costly and time-consuming "old" recombination method on a global scale. By mutation genetics, three time-lapse methods were available to the breeders: (a) raising the numbers of mutations so enormously in a few years, that nature would have needed millions of years to produce similar amounts of hereditary changes; (b) well-aimed and careful selection and conservation of promising genotypes, which often would have been lost in nature; and (c) well-aimed recombination of rare genotypes for which the chance to ever meet and mate in nature would again be very small.

After the neo-Darwinian school of biologists had taught plant breeders that mutation, recombination, and natural selection were responsible for the origination of all life forms and structures on earth, the possibility of the threefold time-lapse-method led to a previously unknown euphoria among geneticists in order to revolutionize plant breeding.

Literally billions of mutations were induced by different mutagenic agents in many plant species. However, relatively few useful mutants were obtained, mostly loss-of-function-mutants losing undesirable features like toxic constituents, shattering of fruits, spininess and so on.

Due to the limits summarized by the law of recurrent variation (also pertinent to the processes in nature, i.e. for natural selection), these efforts ended in a worldwide collapse of mutation breeding some forty years later.

It is self-evident that selection, whether artificial or natural, cannot select structures and capabilities which were hoped or believed to arise, but never did (Lönnig, 1993, 1998). Thus, qualitative limits in generating positive mutations point to the limits of natural selection."
NATURAL SELECTION

Without that engine driving evolution, you could not possibly arrive at transitional fossils.
You may be looking at a deformed human skeleton or that of an ape.

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Wilson
 

Amill

Apikoros
First, you have to get past the problems with mutations. They do not support the claims that they improve any organisms.
Lol, and after we move past the problems with mutations, then you'd inform us that we'd have to figure out exactly how life started on earth before we could discuss mutations, then after figuring out life we'd have to discuss the origin of the earth and all of the factors that lead to it's beginnings, then the rest of the solar system...then atoms....universe...ect. It would be never ending with your logic. If only you applied this logic to your own beliefs. But I guess the simple idea that "man shall never know god's ways blah blah blah" is enough for you.

You must have some sort of forum control that allows you to set on ignore responses that show contradictions in your logic or statements.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2381507-post1836.html

And here is a post you forgot to tackle as well. Wonder why.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2382390-post1858.html

I imagine that even if we had complete fossils of every single living species that existed on the planet and showed you how they all suggest common descent to the point where it's even more obvious than it already is today....that you'd still dismiss all the evidence because "abiogenesis hasn't been answered".

54571996_541b19e36d.jpg



I can't believe you've gone to the point where now entire populations of neanderthals are deformed humans or apes. Of course any knowledgeable person would agree on the ape part. But I'd like to hear your definition of an ape, only by describing them by characteristics they possess.
 
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wilsoncole

Active Member
That's strange. When I was a child, I often put sea water into a bucket with a lid on it to keep the little fishies my dad caught for me in rock pools, alive. In the beginning I left no opening. Water appeared on the bottom of the lid every morning I opened and checked on the fishies. When I licked the bottom side of the lid, I could taste fresh water. Somehow some water moved from the bucket to the belly of the lid. All the little fishies in the bucket died quickly, though.

Later I learned to put the lid on with a little opening towards the side and the fishies didn't die. The water started disappearing more quickly. Somehow water still always appeared on the lower side of the lid. Fresh water. Not salty at all. Voila! I figured out that water disappears into the air and appears on the lid again. I learned that I should add a little water every day. The fishies survived. I also learned that there is something else in the open air that the fishies need to survive. You don't have to be a genius to figure that one out.

As a little child with a short attention span, I also found out that if I left the bucket without replenishing the water often enough, all the water would disappear and a little salt is left in the bucket with dry, dead fish. Voila! Water goes into the air.

I also discovered that it rains from clouds in the air. I put two and two together and and realized that water "disappears" into the air and "reappears" from the air. And I was so young that I barely could walk without falling over. Religionists would call me a prophet if I lived a few thousand years ago, wrote it down, called it the "water cycle" and they read it now. Some people living today would propably worship me or at least have called me a prophet. And it would have been more accurate than the one described in the Bible!
And now that you have become a man, you should put away the childish things. (1 Corinthians 13:1-8)
Is this what you figured out - all by your lil' ol' self?
Hydrologic cycle
Hydrologic System
Trees, filtration and storage had nothing to do with it - right?
Ain't that simple - is it?


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Wilson
 

David M

Well-Known Member
" Looking at the famous case of industrial melanism more than 20 years later, we have to point to the most surprising fact that the case has recently been found wanting (Sargent et al., 1998; Majerus, 1998; Coyne, 1998).......... After summarizing Kettlewell&#8217;s presentation of the Biston betularia instance, Coyne (1998) states the main points of the critical recent observations as follows:

(a) The peppered moth normally doesn&#8217;t rest on tree trunks (where Kettlewell had directly placed them for documentation);

(b) The moth usually choose their resting places during the night, not during the day (the latter being implied in the usual evolutionary textbook illustrations);

(c) The return of the variegated form of the peppered moth occurred independently of the lichens "that supposedly played such an important role" (Coyne); and

(d) Kettlewell&#8217;s behavioral experiments have not been replicated in later investigations. Additionally, there are important points to be added from the original papers, as

(e) differences of vision between man and birds and

(f) the pollution-independent decrease of melanic morphs."

Plagiarism is a breach of forum rules.

http://www.weloennig.de/NaturalSelection.html

Of course Loennig is wrong but I'll wait until you admit your plagiarism before posting the evidence for it.
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Either way, the source you plagiarized from is either lying or incompetent. Kettlewell's original research was confirmed by Majerus.

Peppered moths do rest on tree trunks, they are differentially preyed upon depending on color, and they remain a classic example of natural selection in the wild.

Icon of Obfuscation
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Show me what I plagiarized.
What is the Reply # of the supposedly plagiarized post?

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Wilson

The post I quoted above, which has now been deleted to remove the evidence of the plagiarised words. The post that originally followed Almill's post with the picture of the dusty car.

However It is still available via Google cache.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-ys-O51ZwZ0J:www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/107546-what-does-fossil-record-say-196.html+%22Looking+at+the+famous+case+of+industrial+melanism+more+than+20+years+later%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

So rather than admit to wrongdoing Wilson is reduced to deleting posts and pretending they never existed? That is very indicative of how a persons posts can be judged.

Learn a lesson in honesty from this Wilson (and also in the power of other people's ability to use google).

Here is what you wrote without indicating that you were quoting someone else.
" Looking at the famous case of industrial melanism more than 20 years later, we have to point to the most surprising fact that the case has recently been found wanting (Sargent et al., 1998; Majerus, 1998; Coyne, 1998).......... After summarizing Kettlewell&#8217;s presentation of the Biston betularia instance, Coyne (1998) states the main points of the critical recent observations as follows:

(a) The peppered moth normally doesn&#8217;t rest on tree trunks (where Kettlewell had directly placed them for documentation);

(b) The moth usually choose their resting places during the night, not during the day (the latter being implied in the usual evolutionary textbook illustrations);

(c) The return of the variegated form of the peppered moth occurred independently of the lichens "that supposedly played such an important role" (Coyne); and

(d) Kettlewell&#8217;s behavioral experiments have not been replicated in later investigations. Additionally, there are important points to be added from the original papers, as

(e) differences of vision between man and birds and

(f) the pollution-independent decrease of melanic morphs."


And here is what Loennig wrote here http://www.weloennig.de/NaturalSelection.html
Looking at the famous case of industrial melanism more than 20 years later, we have to point to the most surprising fact that the case has recently been found wanting (Sargent et al., 1998; Majerus, 1998; Coyne, 1998). Hence, we may conclude that Popper&#8217;s partial retraction of his views was not necessary, at least not because of the example of the peppered moth.
After summarizing Kettlewell&#8217;s presentation of the Biston betularia instance, Coyne (1998) states the main points of the critical recent observations as follows: (a) The peppered moth normally doesn&#8217;t rest on tree trunks (where Kettlewell had directly placed them for documentation); (b) The moth usually choose their resting places during the night, not during the day (the latter being implied in the usual evolutionary textbook illustrations); (c) The return of the variegated form of the peppered moth occurred independently of the lichens "that supposedly played such an important role" (Coyne); and (d) Kettlewell&#8217;s behavioral experiments have not been replicated in later investigations. Additionally, there are important points to be added from the original papers, as (e) differences of vision between man and birds and (f) the pollution-independent decrease of melanic morphs.
Underlined are the words that you excluded when you copied and pasted, apart from those we have identical words in the same order without attributing them to their author. Plagiarism.

apparently, wilson doesn't know the old cut-n-paste and google trick...
:sarcastic

Or of cache pages.

 
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