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What Does The Torah, Bible and Quran Say About Genetic Engineering?
- Thread starter iholdit
- Start date
I absolutely agree.
Islam is against genetic engineering
[youtube]KP8cdkBkqkA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP8cdkBkqkA
Quran 2:205-"And when he goes away, he strives throughout the land to cause corruption therein and destroy crops and animals. And Allah does not like corruption."
Quran 4:119-120-"And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss."
"Satan promises them and arouses desire in them. But Satan does not promise them except delusion."
[youtube]KP8cdkBkqkA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP8cdkBkqkA
Quran 2:205-"And when he goes away, he strives throughout the land to cause corruption therein and destroy crops and animals. And Allah does not like corruption."
Quran 4:119-120-"And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss."
"Satan promises them and arouses desire in them. But Satan does not promise them except delusion."
arthra
Baha'i
Genetic Engineering:
"Nothing specific has been found in the Bahá'í writings on genetic engineering. This is therefore a matter on which the House of Justice may have to legislate but the time has not yet come for that.
"The subject is quite complex, and an informed opinion can be offered only when the scientific understanding is much further advanced than at present and the social implications are clearer. With the emergence of adequate understanding, it will also be opportune to deal with ethical issues involved.
"In the meantime, Bahá'ís faced with questions about genetic engineering are free to come to their own conclusions based on their knowledge of the Bahá'í teachings on nature and the purpose of life. However, they should be careful not to make dogmatic statements or offer their own understanding as the teaching of the Faith."
From NSA USA - "Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities"
"Nothing specific has been found in the Bahá'í writings on genetic engineering. This is therefore a matter on which the House of Justice may have to legislate but the time has not yet come for that.
"The subject is quite complex, and an informed opinion can be offered only when the scientific understanding is much further advanced than at present and the social implications are clearer. With the emergence of adequate understanding, it will also be opportune to deal with ethical issues involved.
"In the meantime, Bahá'ís faced with questions about genetic engineering are free to come to their own conclusions based on their knowledge of the Bahá'í teachings on nature and the purpose of life. However, they should be careful not to make dogmatic statements or offer their own understanding as the teaching of the Faith."
From NSA USA - "Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities"
Thank you for your comment. If your faith allows you the freedom to come to your own conclusions about genetic engineering/modification, what have you concluded?
arthra
Baha'i
The science of genetic engineering is relative new and so in my view there is nothing in scriptures that really can provide any guidance.. In my Faith when an issue is not dealt with in the Baha'i Writings it devolves on our Supreme Institution to decide an issue..thus far there's been no guidance on the subject..
This doesn't mean it couldn't change in the future as genetic engineering say developes.. so I'm content with that.
The danger I think is that people might take a dogmatic rigid response to something that could be of great benefit to humanity.. Better crops ..resistant to insects or drought.. Some congenital defects that could be avoided.. there are a lot of possibilities.
Could the scientific advances be exploited or misused..possibly.
But we need I think to observe what developes and allow science to make strides..
I have mentioned earlier in this thread and shown studies that genetically engineered/modified food being grown outdoors are spreading in the wild, this has occured with plants and fish etc. escaping in the wild.
There have been several studies(some posted in this thread) showing that ge/gm foods have been shown to cause various medical problems in lab animals consuming them.
So if these ge/gm plants,fish etc. get in the wild and breed with other non-ge/gm plants,fish etc. then eventually all of those organisms in the wild will contain the ge/gm genes. There have been studies done in fish which show in as little as 40 generations after a ge/gm fish is released in the wild all fish of that species will contain gm/ge genes.
This poses several problems. It makes those who do not want to consume ge/gm foods, forced to consume them because all foods will become ge/gm. It also makes it so if there are genes which cause health problems in those ge/gm organisms then we will be forced to consume foods which cause health problems. It also means the companies who have patents on the ge/gm genes could claim to own all members of that species.
What i have suggested is making it mandatory for all ge/gm foods to be labeled and making it mandatory that all ge/gm organisms be grown or kept indoors in contained systems. Are you opposed to these measures being taken?
arthra
Baha'i
Personally I have no objections to labelling products.. as far as restricting where they're grown I'm personally not as adamant about it as you are and I think more studies should be done..
A good article on the subject to me can be found at:
Genetically modified food - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As far as how religions react..again, I think it's important to have an open attitude ...
A good article on the subject to me can be found at:
Genetically modified food - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As far as how religions react..again, I think it's important to have an open attitude ...
At this point there is no reason i can see to allow ge/gm crops to be grown outdoors. There is a risk of the ge/gm genes spreading in the wild and "contaminating" other non-ge/gm crops.
The wikipedia article didnt mention much about how ge/gm genes in crops and animals have been found in the wild, so here is study i posted earlier on the subject, there are more studies that have been done as well.
Genetically Modified Rape Taking Over North Dakota : TreeHugger
It mentioned how the fda has done little to monitor the food safety of ge/gm foods but it didnt mention that there have been numerous studies showing health risks in lab animals who ate ge/gm foods, so here are a couple of studies i posted earlier and there are many more.
Monsanto and GM Foods: Health Risks - SourceWatch
Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals
It mentions the crisis in india where farmers used gm cotton and the gm crops produced worse yields than the conventional cotton. It didnt mention that many of the indian farmers are actually commiting suicide after having gone bankrupt and losing their farms because of the gm cottons poor yields and high cost. Here is a movie that goes into more detail about the crisis in india as well as other issues not discussed in depth in the wikipedia article.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pZPEGgwSkI
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arthra
Baha'i
I hold it..
I read your links..
Granted there are pros and cons..Personally I wasn't swayed very much either way..
Your first link was probably the best on North Dakota.. It gave some pros abd cons.
Your second link didn't play out..
The third one about Monsanto was alright..
The fourth link from Youtube was good.. It gives both sides..but it is prefaced by "resisting the new world order" which unfortunately was a "put off" for me..
As far as religion again I think your initial post was purposefully biased..again we need to be open and look at both sides and not be rigid in our views.
I read your links..
Granted there are pros and cons..Personally I wasn't swayed very much either way..
Your first link was probably the best on North Dakota.. It gave some pros abd cons.
Your second link didn't play out..
The third one about Monsanto was alright..
The fourth link from Youtube was good.. It gives both sides..but it is prefaced by "resisting the new world order" which unfortunately was a "put off" for me..
As far as religion again I think your initial post was purposefully biased..again we need to be open and look at both sides and not be rigid in our views.
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Its not a matter of looking at both sides because one side has the potential to destroy the other. If it were a matter of ge/gm plants,animals being contained in enclosures where they couldnt(or at least less likely to) spread to the wild, and they were thoroughly tested for safety before being used for consumption i wouldnt be as concerned.
The problem is it is not a matter of scientific experimentation being done in a safe manner. It is a matter of scientific experimentation being done in the open where it can contaminate other crops,animals etc. It is also a matter of no fda testing thus making the consumer an unknowing(no labels on geo/gmo) human lab animal.
I also didnt like the new world order preface on the youtube video but the movie itself was good. I also thank you for watching it considering it is a long movie.
My initial post was what scripture says. I am biased to an extent because it hasnt been tested and has been released in the wild and in the consumers food. We have seen the problems in the past especially with monsanto who has released ddt and pcbs into the wild only to later realize the environmental and health effects it caused.
Its possible geo/gmo may be beneficial in some instances but until each geo/gmo is proven safe for the environment and the consumer there is no reason to release a potential contaminant into the wild where it will pass the harmful gene(s) onto the entire wild population.
Even if geo/gmo were proven safe i would still choose not to consume them or grow them etc. because of my religious beliefs. But i should have the right to have that option. As of right now i do not have that right because if my neighbor grows geo/gmo on their property there is a good chance it will contaminate my crops. If i buy foods there is a good chance the food will contain geo/gmos and they wont be labeled(i live in the u.s.) so i will have no way of knowing. Even if i buy organic foods there is a chance those foods will also have been contaminated.
Allowing ge/gm foods to be grown,kept etc. outdoors and put in foods without informing the consumer is what i am against. This is forcing me to consume geo/gmo. If someone chooses to eat or grow etc. geo/gmo that is their choice, i think they should be told the risk involved but it will be their informed choice at that point. But i shouldnt be forced to give up my choice, which is exactly whats happening. So i believe i have the right to be biased against a potential contaminate, which has been forced upon me.
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arthra
Baha'i
But see that's it ...the material you referred to me offers different sides! such as
"Mike Wilkinson, an expert from the Aberystwyth University in the U.K., told NPR that people should not worry about this. According to Wilkinson, the genetically modified canola does not compete well in the wild, being accustomed to grow with special care and little competition in the agricultural domain."
So you see there are different sides and does matter to be open..There are always different perspectives and views. It's a controversy.
"My initial post was what scripture says".. that's your opinion. All of them were revealed before Genetic Engineering came about.. so specific guidance from them isn't there.
"Mike Wilkinson, an expert from the Aberystwyth University in the U.K., told NPR that people should not worry about this. According to Wilkinson, the genetically modified canola does not compete well in the wild, being accustomed to grow with special care and little competition in the agricultural domain."
So you see there are different sides and does matter to be open..There are always different perspectives and views. It's a controversy.
"My initial post was what scripture says".. that's your opinion. All of them were revealed before Genetic Engineering came about.. so specific guidance from them isn't there.
If you watched the youtube videos you will notice that there were several organic farmers who had ge/gm crops take root on their property. There was even a part where one of the farmers won a lawsuit against monsanto for gm crops taking root on his property.
There have been numerous instances of contamination and of course the npr is going to say "canola" is not going to be another case of contamination like all the other cases. There may have be a controversy about gm "canola" taking root in the wild, but the video shows that organic canola can not be grown in canada because of gm canola contamination. It also shows gm soy and corn have already taken root in organic farms and in the wild. So overall there isnt a controversy, gm plants have been found in the wild.
As far as scripture, these are prophetic verses. To say there is no specific guidance seems strange. These are warnings against mixing different breeds and not changing the fathers creation etc. This would apply to geo/gmo as well.
If you want to grow or consume geo/gmo, that is fine with me but dont grow it outdoors where it can contaminate my crops or the organic crops etc. that i eat. Also dont try to trick me into eating or using geo/gmo by not labeling what products contain them.
The video has several instances of geo/gmo being found in other farmers fields and in the wild, which is why i didnt post more studies. But if it takes more studies which show geo/gmo have been found in places they dont belong to convince you, then i will gladly find them and post them here for you.
arthra
Baha'i
I've been doing a little research on my own since we started discussing this and so you've inspired me to look deeper into the subject.. Thank you!
Before you want to throw out Genetic Engineering consider:
Are you familiar with this study?
We examine the farm-level impact of Bt cotton in Coahuila, Mexico. Bt cotton was introduced in Mexico in 1996. It has been an important tool in reducing pesticide use by more than 50% and generating annual benefits of US$2.7 million
AgBioForum 7(1&2): Transgenic Cotton in Mexico
And what about:
"corn hybrids containing transgenic traits (aka GMO, biotech) were once a novelty, but now occupy the overwhelming majority of the acres of commercial dent corn grown in the U.S. In 2009, the United States Dept. of Agriculture estimated that approximately 85% of the U.S. corn acres were planted to biotech hybrids"
A Compendium of Biotech Corn Traits - Corny News Network (Purdue University)
What do you think of Human Gene Therapy..?
"An innovative genetic strategy for rendering T-cells resistant to HIV infection"
New anti-HIV gene therapy makes T-cells resistant to HIV infection
and
Human Gene Therapy - Google Scholar
Your comment:
As far as scripture, these are prophetic verses. To say there is no specific guidance seems strange. These are warnings against mixing different breeds and not changing the fathers creation etc. This would apply to geo/gmo as well.
It's not really the same thing though ..
People didn't know about germs until relatively recently.. Louis Pasteur coined the term "Germs" in 1860 and many Doctors didn't scrub..
Check out when Genes were discovered..
See:
Discovery of Genes - DNA Encodes Genes - Discovery of DNA
I think studying this area of genetic engineering is fascinating and it looks like there are many, many applications.. Should ethics and humanist and spiritual leaders be aware of these things? definitely! Is genetic engineering evil and to be condemned? I don't think so.
Before you want to throw out Genetic Engineering consider:
Are you familiar with this study?
We examine the farm-level impact of Bt cotton in Coahuila, Mexico. Bt cotton was introduced in Mexico in 1996. It has been an important tool in reducing pesticide use by more than 50% and generating annual benefits of US$2.7 million
AgBioForum 7(1&2): Transgenic Cotton in Mexico
And what about:
"corn hybrids containing transgenic traits (aka GMO, biotech) were once a novelty, but now occupy the overwhelming majority of the acres of commercial dent corn grown in the U.S. In 2009, the United States Dept. of Agriculture estimated that approximately 85% of the U.S. corn acres were planted to biotech hybrids"
A Compendium of Biotech Corn Traits - Corny News Network (Purdue University)
What do you think of Human Gene Therapy..?
"An innovative genetic strategy for rendering T-cells resistant to HIV infection"
New anti-HIV gene therapy makes T-cells resistant to HIV infection
and
Human Gene Therapy - Google Scholar
Your comment:
As far as scripture, these are prophetic verses. To say there is no specific guidance seems strange. These are warnings against mixing different breeds and not changing the fathers creation etc. This would apply to geo/gmo as well.
It's not really the same thing though ..
People didn't know about germs until relatively recently.. Louis Pasteur coined the term "Germs" in 1860 and many Doctors didn't scrub..
Check out when Genes were discovered..
See:
Discovery of Genes - DNA Encodes Genes - Discovery of DNA
I think studying this area of genetic engineering is fascinating and it looks like there are many, many applications.. Should ethics and humanist and spiritual leaders be aware of these things? definitely! Is genetic engineering evil and to be condemned? I don't think so.
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I didnt get a chance to read your links but i will respond once i read them. If your argument is that geos/gmos have a potential benefit in some circumstances then i am not arguing against that. They may have some benefits in some circumstances but there are also circumstances which have already been shown in studies to have health risks. To just allow geo/gmo to be able to contaminate other crops when they could be spreading genes which cause health risks, seems insane to me.
As far as germs, this is covered in numerous verses in scripture which deal with sanitation, washing hands etc. Like i said these are prophetic verses but they were also useful to the people at the time as well. They were clearly ahead of modern science in terms of cleanliness as a measure to prevent disease.
Here are some studies and examples of geo/gmo contamination and there are many more.
Corn contamination
BBC News | SCI/TECH | Mexican study raises GM concern
Canola contamination australia
National Post, Friday, June 28, 2002: Canola study raises fears of 'gene flow': Contamination threat
Rice contamination
CBG - KEYCODE BAYER 442
Sugar beet contamination
GM sugar beets found in soil mix sold to gardeners
GENE FLOW BETWEEN CULTIVATED AND WILD BEET
Papaya contamination
Papaya contamination — Hawaii SEED
Potato contamination
Briefing: Summary of the risks of GM potatoes
Buffer zones did not protect against contamination
Buffer Zones Can't Prevent GMO Cross-contamination
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Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
The original genetic research taken in order to trace the genetic origins of Ashkenazi Jews (Jews who lived along the Rhine) is the original research and study which originated modern genetic genealogy. many Jews conduct extensive genetic research to trace the genetic origins of Jewish communities in Israel and abroad.
archaeologists around the world work to trace the genetic baggage of modern population in the face of the travel, invasions, trade and geopolitical reality of historical periods. Lebanese archaeologists work to trace Phoenician genes, British archaeologists work on the populations of the British isles and the relations to Scandinavia, etc.
The bt cotton study showed higher yields in mexico primary attributed to genes that reduce "pests". However we have seen this is not the case overall. We have seen bt cotton fail in indonesia and india and conventional cotton has produced higher yields than bt cotton there. We have also seen bt cotton have a short lived effect of higher yields followed by lower yields in china and some states in the u.s.
GM Cotton Fiascos Around the World
A study done in china has shown that there are now infestations of "pests" that bt cotton doesnt control. It also shows that after 8-10 years the "pests" bt cotton did control have become immune to the bt cotton as well. This has lead to less profit for bt cotton farmers compared to conventional cotton farmers.
Pests infesting GM cotton fields in China
Genetically Modified Cotton Damages Environment
For gm corn, i have already posted studies showing it has caused health problems in lab animals consuming it. I have also posted studies showing a huge contamination problem. Even if gm corn produced higher yields it is not worth the health risks and contamination that gm corn has caused. As with bt cotton and most other gm crops the claim that gm corn causes higher yields is very controversial. There have been many studies which show gm food crops overall have not shown higher yields and/or are less cost effective than conventional crops.
GM Crops Failed
For human gene therapy there are some possible potential benefits in some cases. However, the problem is we have not even come close to exploring natural organisms or chemicals in those organisms to see if they would have the same benefits as human gene therapy. For example a tomato has over 10,000 chemicals in it. We havent even tested a small fraction of natural foods for benefits forget about every chemical in every natural organism. Yet we are risking contamination of those natural organisms thus losing all the possible benefits of those natural organisms and the chemicals in them. WOULDNT IT MAKE MORE SENSE TO PRESERVE THE NATURAL ORGANISMS? Then we can have all the natural organisms to test for benefits and scientists could keep geo/gmo contained indoors and test them for benefits as well.
As for when genes were discovered, i have already stated that the verses in scripture were prophetic. If we would have followed scripture we would have avoided the huge geo/gmo contamination problem we have now, along with the invasive species problem we have and spread of diseases in the past caused by lack of cleanliness etc.
So far geo/gmo have done more harm than good and i believe the future will show more of the same, but we shouldnt have our health put at risk and our crops contaminated against our will because of it.
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This is actually very interesting, but i probably should have worded the title of the thread better. I should have probably called the thread "what does the torah,bible,quran say about humans genetically engineering and genetically modifying organisms".
I would be very interested in your opinion on geo/gmo. From what i have read of your posts so far i agree with much of what you write. I would greatly appreciate your input on the subject.
The anti-gmo websites are quoting studies done by legit scientists. Rather than post 20 or so studies for each subject i posted the anti-gmo websites who list the 20 or so studies. The studies are legit, for example the study i posted from china was done by chinas dept. of agriculture. You can say whatever you want about the websites but the studies are legit. If you want i will post all the individual studies for you to read.
Just to let you know i have a masters degree in food and nutrition, most of the scientists in my field are against geo/gmo. We read the studies almost everyday and almost all of the health studies that have been done show some harmful effects. Its not a conspiracy my friend, it is what the studies say. I will find non-biased scientific sources for you, although some of my sources have been just that. I ask you look at the sources that have come from legit science and news websites for now and i will find dozens of studies for you that will fit your standards.