What evidence is there that christians are all mass deluded?

[Humanistheart]

That God did not answer a single prayer in not proof of God not answering prayer at all...

Actually jesus says in the bible ask and ye shall recieve. Maybe this doesn't disprove the god of the jews, but the chrsitians version just went down the tiolet. Unless you want to excuse jesus' lieing. After all lieing's not a sin... oh wait. Jesus also said christians would be able to move mountains. know any christians who can do that? I don't.

 

[Mister Emu]

Of course I would. I would only have to go to where you took it.

How would you be able to tell the difference between someone taking it without your knowledge, and it not existing? If the criteria is not being able to see it, feel it, or hear it?

No, if my computer did not exist, I would not be able to post.

But you do... that is what I am saying, you have a computer you have posted on... you might be posting right now... this computer, what would it take for you to believe that a computer you interact with, post with, can see, hear, and feel, and that other people claim to see, hear, or feel and interact with, is non-existant?

If not, then, by your own description, you're not open to having your belief disproved.

That isn't the same thing... being unable to conceive of a circumstance in which something is demonstably false is not the same as not being open to be disproven... I cannot conceive of a situation in which 2 + 2 <> 4, am I therefore deluded in my belief that 2 + 2 = 4?

The closest thing I can come up with is proving my perceptive ability is funamentally flawed, which wouldn't really disprove God existing, only cast doubt on it... and God lieing to me...

That is, your belief is incorrigible. IOW, delusional.

I'm not giving you incorrigibility, because I'm not sure my inability to conceive of something means that I reject that something existing... but even if I did, you would still need the third part, demonstrable falsity or impossibility to get to delusion...

I read the research. Intercessory prayer doesn't work.

The research is flawed... you cannot control the variables to properly test the ability of intercessory prayer... even if it wasn't Meta-study finds God answers prayers | Science Blog this link seems to suggest otherwise Wannabe Yogi produced this link on page 7 of this thread...

That said, I still reject that this is actual science, but it is nice

So I concluded that God does not exist. You can read the same research.

A conclusion based on flawed premises, while not nessecarily incorrect, is not compelling

 

[Beaudreaux]

Man talks with a Christian who insists that God exists and asks her if God answers prayers. She says yes. He asks what will happen if she prays and asks God to heal her amputated limb. She says God will heal the limb because God answers the good requests of the faithful. The man has her pray for healing which does not occur.

That God did not answer a single prayer in not proof of God not answering prayer at all... and yes, her belief was faulty that God would answer her every whim...

The difference here is that the belief that dead people don't bleed is a correct belief... a correct belief was changed to co-exist with the delusion...

We know that dead people don't bleed because every single time we prick them with a pin, they will not bleed (assuming they are not freshly dead and that "bleeding" is defined as the heart pumping blood out of a compromised blood vessel).

We know that God does not heal amputees in EXACTLY the same way because every single time someone prays for an amputee to be healed, they will not be healed.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It seems to me the most problematic aspect of Mr Emu's arguments is that they could be about anything. We could be talking about whether or not the Aztec sun god, or the miracles of Sathya Sai Baba are mass delusions, and Mr Emu's arguments would apply just as well. In other words, Mr Emu's arguments do not lead to belief in God, they lead to belief in almost anything.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If I can chime in on one question.....

But you do... that is what I am saying, you have a computer you have posted on... you might be posting right now... this computer, what would it take for you to believe that a computer you interact with, post with, can see, hear, and feel, and that other people claim to see, hear, or feel and interact with, is non-existant?

The following would be evidence (not proof) that my computer exists in my mind, rather than in the external world:

• The computer can only be detected by people, and not all people. Cameras, scales, thermometers, and other measurement devices, which unlike people cannot be deluded, cannot detect computers. Even people who can detect computers can't agree on what they look like, how they function. This is probably the strongest evidence the entity is a product of the mind.
• Beliefs about the computer are social context-dependent, and highly contradictory.
• People have psychological reasons to want to believe in a computer. They think a computer will give them eternal life. They think not believing in computers will send them to hell. They think it is a virtue to believe in a computer, especially if there is little hard evidence. Large social structures exist which require belief in computers. Songs and rituals have been devised for the purpose of reaffirming faith in the existence of computers.
• Hallucinations of the computer can be induced by psychoactive drugs, suggestion, etc.
• People claim to know and do things that would not be possible without a computer, such as communicate with others half way across the globe, or calculate pi to a thousand decimal places. But whenever they are tested, they can't do it.

Of course you can finagle things so that some of the above statements hold true, sort of, some of the time, for computers. But however you finagle the English language, the above statements apply much, much more readily to certain things (gods, demons, witches, and other mass delusions) and less readily to others (trees, the Sun, computers, the economy, the history of Spain, and other real entities).

Just to head this off: you might be tempted to say, "Ah, but beliefs about computers ARE social context dependent! Uneducated people think computers are controlled by spirits! Windows users think they run on Windows, Mac users think they run on Leopard!" This is just a finagling of language, for obvious reasons that I shouldn't even have to go into. Any way you slice it, this is totally different from the social context-dependence of belief in gods. That is why we have words like "faith" and "religion" and it is why those words are never applied to belief in computers but usually applied to belief in gods. Totally different things.

 

[Mister Emu]

In other words, Mr Emu's arguments do not lead to belief in God, they lead to belief in almost anything.

My arguments are not meant to lead to belief in anything...

If I can chime in on one question.....

What was the question?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Even if there is no evidence that Christians are mass-deluded, "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence", so, logically, we still all need to remain open to the idea that Christians may be mass-deluded.

 

[Mister Emu]

Even if there is no evidence that Christians are mass-deluded, "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence", so, logically, we still all need to remain open to the idea that Christians may be mass-deluded.

Unless there is evidence that we are not...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Unless there is evidence that we are not...

Is there?

 

[linwood]

Is there?

Well yeah but he won`t show himself.

 

[Mr Cheese]

this is a silly question...

there are numerous types and divisions of christians
comparing Francis of Assisi to Pat Roberson or Fred Phelps for example, is like comparing a fine wine to road kill. You can consume both, but I am sure the wine would be better (unless you're from West Virginia).

&#8220;You can&#8217;t preach the Bible without preaching hatred.&#8221;
&#8220;God doesn&#8217;t hate them because they&#8217;re ****; they&#8217;re **** because God hates them.&#8221;

--Fred Phelps

"No one is to be called an enemy,
all are your benefactors,
and no one does you harm.
You have no enemy except yourselves. "

"Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,

grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life. Amen. "

--St Francis

 

[Ichiraku_raman]

Christians arent that deluded, dont worry. At least they believe in God, thats something. The only thing that makes them look deluded is that they believe that God has a son. But that would make him quite similar to humans, wouldn't it? Why worship a God who has an equal? But on the whole, Christians ain't so bad...heck, they're awright

 

[Mister Emu]

Is there?

Certainly...

If a belief is uncertain,
if a belief is possible
if a belief has not been proven false.

any one of those and a belief is not delusion...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Certainly...

If a belief is uncertain,
if a belief is possible
if a belief has not been proven false.

any one of those and a belief is not delusion...

So, if I believe that the CIA is after me, as long as that belief is uncertain, possible, and hasn't been proven false, this means that my belief is not delusional?

There's suddenly a lot fewer delusional people running around.

 

[Mister Emu]

So, if I believe that the CIA is after me, as long as that belief is uncertain, possible, and hasn't been proven false, this means that my belief is not delusional?

There's suddenly a lot fewer delusional people running around.

Yes...

A delusion is a certainty that something impossible is real, that one can be shown that it is false, and they still hold on to the belief...

 

[Mr Cheese]

Christians arent that deluded, dont worry. At least they believe in God, thats something. The only thing that makes them look deluded is that they believe that God has a son. But that would make him quite similar to humans, wouldn't it? Why worship a God who has an equal? But on the whole, Christians ain't so bad...heck, they're awright

Well this is because Islam by and large is centered around the transcendant nature fo God, making it arguably the most "mystic" of the 3 main Abrahamic religions, of course it is far more complex than that.

Christianity by and large deals with the immanent form of God. Although it arguably deals with the transcendant also.

Judaism is by and large similar to Christianity in this context.

Islam differs in that it is far more "hard line" or strongly geared toward the transcendant unknowlable ineffble nature of God, in the exoteric and esoteric.

immanent
Adjective
1. present within and throughout something
2. (of God) present throughout the universe [Latin immanere to remain in]
immanence

&#8220;Jesus(peace be with him) has said,
&#8220;The world is like a bridge. Pass over it, but do not settle down on it!
He who hopes for an hour may hope for eternity!
The world is but an hour: spend it in devotion, for the rest is of no worth.&#8221;


&#8211;The mosque of Fatehpur Sikri (ca 1569).

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes...

A delusion is a certainty that something impossible is real, that one can be shown that it is false, and they still hold on to the belief...

Can you show me the CIA isn't after me.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Can you show me the CIA isn't after me.

I beleive the FBI deals with domestic surveilance of crimi (US CITIZENS) nals....

or does teh CIA also?

We have MI5 and MI6 in England.... (military intelligence...)

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Can you show me the CIA isn't after me.

If you give me $1000 I will take you off the secret CIA list of people to follow around. If not I will continue to trace your steps with the alien brain transmitters.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Certainly...

If a belief is uncertain,
if a belief is possible
if a belief has not been proven false.

any one of those and a belief is not delusion...

But haven't you simply defined the word "delusion" away? Does ANYTHING qualify as delusion, by those criteria? Examples, please.