What exactly do Baha'is mean by "Independent Investigation of the Truth"?

[Trailblazer]

The two Baha'i Library links provided in both Persian and Arabic, is it not available to read?

Regards Tony

No, no, no Tony.... The Baha'i Faith is just a big conspiracy, dontcha know? The UHJ is keeping stuff from us so a crime has been committed... never mind there would be absolutely no motive for that crime.
Obviously, logic is not the forte of some people.
Then again, they don't have anything else but conspiracy "theories." .

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The "Feast" is for Baha'is only. They had what they called "firesides" for "seekers". I don't know if they still do. Pretty much every community that had a Local Spiritual Assembly, had a night for a fireside. They were informal and most had a different person speak each time. Some fireside were extremely boring. The better ones had more knowledgeable and more charismatic speakers. So a lot of people would bring their non-Baha'i friends to those.

Oh my gosh. So like SGI (sorry. Personal observation)

 

[Dawnofhope]

What I see is an excuse to suppress the scripture. For the sake of the argument let's suppose what you claim is correct and Baha'is want to ensure their translations are "a high standard". A quick comparison shows the contrary to your claims. I'll just quote a statement from the repected ex-Baha'i professor Juan cole:

"Moreover, the Universal House of Justice's own translations, as represented in Tablets of Bahā’u’llāh and some of the compilations, are riddled with errors and mistranslations that give an extremely misleading impression of the intent of the original on a number of occasions." (Tablet of the Maiden)

Everyone is entitled to their views. Academics have the usual human characteristics along with the rest of us. One academic has an opinion that another refutes and soon the personal attacks and accusations fly.

From the link provided the Universal House of Justice clearly viewed Juan Cole's translation as 'far from adequate'.

The Universal House of Justice is simply doing what any governing body of an organisation does to ensure quality control.

Exactly. But unfortunately, the original will of Abdu'l-Baha is available but Baha'is simply refuse to make it public to dispel the allegations, on the other hand no one knows about the whereabouts of the original manuscript of the Quran. Two different issues here thah cannot be judged by the same standard.

I haven't come across anyone who believes Abdu'l-Baha didn't appoint Shoghi Effendi as Guardian. The provisions of the Will were almost universally accepted by the Baha'is at the time. A few Western Baha'is later on made an issue of it.

All documents tagged "Abdul-Baha, Will and Testament of"

Access to copies of any original documents would require a written request to the Baha'i World Centre/Universal House of Justice.

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh my gosh. So like SGI (sorry. Personal observation)

One Christian Church used to have Christian Rock Concerts and get several hundred people showing up on a Saturday night. Then a young preacher would go out there and give a short talk about how we all need to be saved, and then ask for those that wanted to be saved to come forward and get prayed for. Same kind of thing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh my gosh. So like SGI (sorry. Personal observation)

If someone wants to find out more about the faith, it usually helps to meet one or two Baha'is informally for a chat. That can at a neutral venue (like a café), or at the person's home or that of another Baha'i. There's no need for any formal meeting at all. Its all low key really. Back in CG's youth is was a little different.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One Christian Church used to have Christian Rock Concerts and get several hundred people showing up on a Saturday night. Then a young preacher would go out there and give a short talk about how we all need to be saved, and then ask for those that wanted to be saved to come forward and get prayed for. Same kind of thing.

Yeah. Here is a snipbit of SGI (Soka Gokai International of Nichiren Buddhism)
Understanding Kosen-rufu | Soka Gakkai International (SGI)

Simply put, kosen-rufu is the movement to communicate the ultimate way to happiness and the highest principle of peace to people of all classes and nations through the correct philosophy and teaching of Nichiren Daishonin.

Any vendor or salesperson, for example, believes that his or her product—whether it be televisions, fast food, or fresh vegetables—is the best and makes efforts to have as many people as possible know about it and buy it. This is an example of the widespread propagation (kosen-rufu) of one’s beliefs in a sense.​

Members have a quota for each district of how many new members they can bring in each meeting. There is a conference event, I think, each year to bring larger group of people. We chant Diamoku and then some members come up to share their testimony on how the practice in relation to SGI (not Dharma in general) helped them have a better home, cars, and sense of wellbeing. Their phrase is: changing poison to medicine.

Yeah. I been to a couple of these-like religions and was turned off. I stayed with Nichiren Shoshu for couple of years until I realized they evangalize worse than christians/ianity does. They litterally shun their opposers (SGI) and in "sermon" quote how many people they brought into the religion towards their quota.

I dont know how political Bahai is in person. We have a center near here but not public transport on weekends. If it were more tan curiousity, Id visit; but, from these discussions, reading these quotes, and looking things up Im not really interested. It reminds me so much of these other religions that I shrug and say to each his own.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If someone wants to find out more about the faith, it usually helps to meet one or two Baha'is informally for a chat. That can at a neutral venue (like a café), or at the person's home or that of another Baha'i. There's no need for any formal meeting at all. Its all low key really. Back in CG's youth is was a little different.

SGI isnt bad in and of itself. To tell you honestly, they say the exact same thing you said here. Its general advice, but Bahai isnt unique. Smaller, universalist religions give me a uncomfortable feeling. JW, SGI, some protestant Churches, and Universal Uniterian gives me this same bug. So, what works for some doesnt for others.

I wouldnt expect all people to come to a meeting to form a better opinion of it?

If I told you to attend a meeting contrary to your theology hoping you would see differently if you joined, that would be imposing on your views against wanting to join, am I right?

 

[Dawnofhope]

SGI isnt bad in and of itself. To tell you honestly, they say the exact same thing you said here. Its general advice, but Bahai isnt unique. Smaller, universalist religions give me a uncomfortable feeling. JW, SGI, some protestant Churches, and Universal Uniterian gives me this same bug. So, what works for some doesnt for others.

I wouldnt expect all people to come to a meeting to form a better opinion of it?

If I told you to attend a meeting contrary to your theology hoping you would see differently if you joined, that would be imposing on your views against wanting to join, am I right?

We all learn about other religions differently. For me, the most important part of knowing about Hinduism and Buddhists is knowing Hindus and Buddhists. There is only so far some of us can go on the internet or with book learning.

There is no requirement of having any interest in joining the Baha'i Faith to meet with Baha'is. My interest in meeting Buddhists and Hindus isn't so I become one, nor is it to convince them, they should become a Baha'i.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We all learn about other religions differently. For me, the most important part of knowing about Hinduism and Buddhists is knowing Hindus and Buddhists. There is only so far some of us can go on the internet or with book learning.

There is no requirement of having any interest in joining the Baha'i Faith to meet with Baha'is. My interest in meeting Buddhists and Hindus isn't so I become one, nor is it to convince them, they should become a Baha'i.

If I jumped in every religion I want to learn, Id run out of money and waste people's time. Usually, when you go to a place of worship, you dont go to learn like picking a class for school. They feel you are honestly interested in the religion. So they will, of course, talk to you as if interested in somesort of involvement.

I went to a Hindu temple out of curiousity. I always wanted to go to that temple since I see it on the road and kept telling myself Id go. Finally, I went. I learned some things but not most due to langauge barrier. But the consensus is not to study the place. They really want to know why and how they can greet me in a manner that I honestly care to know deeply about their faith.

I personally dont like universalism. I dont know anything about the theology of your faith and really have no reason to learn to debate it. The people can be as nice as they want to be but in a religious context, they would want you to know more about their faith than they would give a perosn on the street. Different context.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If I jumped in every religion I want to learn, Id run out of money and waste people's time. Usually, when you go to a place of worship, you dont go to learn like picking a class for school. They feel you are honestly interested in the religion. So they will, of course, talk to you as if interested in somesort of involvement.

I went to a Hindu temple out of curiousity. I always wanted to go to that temple since I see it on the road and kept telling myself Id go. Finally, I went. I learned some things but not most due to langauge barrier. But the consensus is not to study the place. They really want to know why and how they can greet me in a manner that I honestly care to know deeply about their faith.

I personally dont like universalism. I dont know anything about the theology of your faith and really have no reason to learn to debate it. The people can be as nice as they want to be but in a religious context, they would want you to know more about their faith than they would give a perosn on the street. Different context.

All good really. The reality for each of us is different. Buddhism seems like a good fit for you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All good really. The reality for each of us is different. Buddhism seems like a good fit for you.

Think about it, Adrian. Would you go to an LGBTQ meeting while we all talk about safe sex between two men and women and how to practice it in a way thats safe and apropriate for each party involved?

You can look it up online, talk to people if interested, even watch a educational movie (um... ) on it, but attend it when it is against your morals (?), its nothing personal on the people who attend. Its just if you do join, they would expect you are an ally and have some interest in the topic.

Religious subject aside, can you see the logic in that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Think about it, Adrian. Would you go to an LGBTQ meeting while we all talk about safe sex between two men and women and how to practice it in a way thats safe and apropriate for each party involved?

You can look it up online, talk to people if interested, even watch a educational movie (um... ) on it, but attend it when it is against your morals (?), its nothing personal on the people who attend. Its just if you do join, they would expect you are an ally and have some interest in the topic.

Religious subject aside, can you see the logic in that?

I wouldn't, but then I wouldn't trying to actively denigrate and malign LGBTQ online either. I feel no aversion to those who identify as gay because I have worked alongside them.

Trying to overcome prejudice and bigotry requires work to build positive relationships with those who are different from us.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wouldn't, but then I wouldn't trying to actively denigrate and malign LGBTQ online either. I feel no aversion to those who identify as gay because I have worked alongside them.

Trying to overcome prejudice and bigotry requires work to build positive relationships with those who are different from us.

I dont know about anyone else, but Im have more of an issue with the people. I dont know much about bahai to debate the particulars just what I learned and, well, the millions of quotes many of you posted. I think I got more than the gist now. Its your theology. I honestly dont think your theology will change. That, and Im sure you guys are real too? Internet people get knocked down as if we are talking to aliens and people offline are the authentics. Never did like that internet-cultural view. Shrugs.

I cant control how other people address you based on your theology, but, its an interesting observation. The structure and how bahai expresses their faith among others is remarkably simular to the organization I was a part of.

SGI people arent mean. I just dont care for how they express and evangalize (they actually will tell you they want more converts). If I knew this online, I would have never joined.

Its not you. Some bahai here do annoy me, but I get annoyed, what did I say, 2 hours, 5mins and 24 seconds or so. Its nothing personal.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I dont know about anyone else, but Im have more of an issue with the people. I dont know much about bahai to debate the particulars just what I learned and, well, the millions of quotes many of you posted. I think I got more than the gist now. Its your theology. I honestly dont think your theology will change. That, and Im sure you guys are real too? Internet people get knocked down as if we are talking to aliens and people offline are the authentics. Never did like that internet-cultural view. Shrugs.

I cant control how other people address you based on your theology, but, its an interesting observation. The structure and how bahai expresses their faith among others is remarkably simular to the organization I was a part of.

SGI people arent mean. I just dont care for how they express and evangalize (they actually will tell you they want more converts). If I knew this online, I would have never joined.

Its not you. Some bahai here do annoy me, but I get annoyed, what did I say, 2 hours, 5mins and 24 seconds or so. Its nothing personal.

From my end, all of our conversations have been friendly, courteous and respectful. I enjoy talking with you. We have different perspectives and that's fine. I have never detected any trace of prejudice, aversion or hostility.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Still acting like I'm dumb. I asked for a scan of the original handwritten will, as if you didn't already know.

You will have to take my word for it as no photography is allowed for in the archives and these documents are to be preserved for future generations that care about what they contain.

What an amazing journey it is in those archives.

I saw today copies of pages of the original pages of this will, with the seal of Abdul'baha, hung in the archives. I also saw the container it was found in on display. I have confirmed the originals are in safe keeping, I asked just for you.

As stated above it is an argument that has no foundation. If it had foundation, the Covernant Breakers would have used it to their advantage way back in 1957. As they did not, that says it all.

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You will have to take my word for it as no photography is allowed for in the archives and these documents are to be preserved for future generations that care about what they contain.

What an amazing journey it is in those archives.

I saw today copies of pages of the original pages of this will, with the seal of Abdul'baha, hung in the archives. I also saw the container it was found in on display. I have confirmed the originals are in safe keeping, I asked just for you.

As stated above it is an argument that has no foundation. If it had foundation, the Covernant Breakers would have used it to their advantage way back in 1957. As they did not, that says it all.

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony

Back to square One: "The will is authentic but we will show it to no one. You have to take our word for it. We call this independent investigation of the truth."

 

[ajay0]

Baha'is claim that their leader has put forward a new principle that no one had thought of before them:

"Another new principle revealed by Baha’u’llah is the injunction to investigate truth—that is to say, no man should blindly follow his ancestors and forefathers. Nay, each must see with his own eyes, hear with his own ears and investigate the truth himself in order that he may follow the truth instead of blind acquiescence and imitation of ancestral beliefs." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 454)
​

Ok, we get the point. We shouldn't blindly imitate the beliefs of other people and their claims instead we should independently find the truth ourselves. So far so good, but I'm pretty sure this isn't a new principle.

Your right. They are not new principles. But I am glad that the Bahai religion, of all the abrahamic religions, is emphasizing the investigative path and inquiry .


O bhikshus and wise men, just as a goldsmith would test his gold by burning, cutting, and rubbing it, so you must examine my words and accept them, but not merely out of reverence for me.
– Buddha , ghanavyuha sutra (Sutra of Dense Array)



Though human in origin, an exposition of truth is to be accepted; otherwise even what is regarded as divine revelation is to be rejected. Even a young boy's words are to be accepted if they are words of wisdom; else reject it like straw even if uttered by Brahma the creator." ~ Yoga Vasishta Ramayan (II-18)

 

[Marcion]

There is no requirement of having any interest in joining the Baha'i Faith to meet with Baha'is. My interest in meeting Buddhists and Hindus isn't so I become one, nor is it to convince them, they should become a Baha'i.

At least you are honest here, admitting openly that you think they should become a Bahai.
Or was that comma before 'they should' a typo?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Your right. They are not new principles. But I am glad that the Bahai religion, of all the abrahamic religions, is emphasizing the investigative path and inquiry

It has nothing to do with them. The same trend can be seen in the Quran too:

"So give good news to My servants,those who listen to what is said and follow the best of it. These are the ones ˹rightly˺ guided by Allah, and these are ˹truly˺ the people of reason." (Quran, 39:17-18)​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is great the topic is finding some of the eternal truths.

Regards Tony