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What exactly makes someone a TERF?

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Back in post #112 @BlueIslandGirl asked everyone / anyone to define three terms. (There are probably more, but we can start with those.) You claim to understand "the concepts involved" so I'd like to hear your definitions for these terms:

trans
A trans person is a person whose gender identity differs from their assigned gender at birth.

A set of social labels among humans, traditionally associated with sexual binaries - though defined socially rather than biologically.

gender identity
The gender label a person associates themselves with or identifies as, or the means in which they personally relate to the social concept of gender.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Traditionally means a quality of moving between two states. Our dear friends on the Non-Right Wing have helpfully expanded the senses of the word. In terms of gender, "Trans" now can be used to cover the entire gender spectrum. In a sense, the logical progression will be that we are ALL on the Trans spectrum.

How a person perceives the intersection of several issues, such as sexuality, masculinity and femininity. This is purely self-identification and therefore socially constructed. This is why identity is so important. You self-identify as a ground squirrel, I back up and support your deeply meaningful self-identification, thereby providing proof of gender being a social construct. That is why the reaction is so swift and furious when one does not support this strong and brave thinking. The negative thinking directly attacks the narrative and so has to be shut down to preserve the narrative.
gender identity -
Is the outward expression of however one relates to their gender. This can be misunderstood as being somewhat superficial expressions like hair, makeup and other gender stereotypes, giving the idea that gender expression is just campy performance art. It is not superficial, but rather, deeply meaningful as folks begin to look at their gender in every way imaginable.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Do doctors observe and document the sex of a baby at birth or the gender? I thought it was sex?
I didn't say doctors did it, I just said it is assigned at birth. Their sex is identified, and then they are treated socially as belonging to the gender category that is assumed to match their sex. I.E: because they have a penis, they are referred to with male pronouns and are expected to be given a male name, etc..
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I didn't say doctors did it, I just said it is assigned at birth. Their sex is identified, and then they are treated socially as belonging to the gender category that is assumed to match their sex. I.E: because they have a penis, they are referred to with male pronouns and are expected to be given a male name, etc..

I appreciate your responses. But we have to take this slowly and carefully because the language concerning these ideas seems to be slippery :)

So was is the "it" that's observed at birth? sex or gender?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
We assign gender, we don't assign sex. I explicitly stated twice that we assign GENDER. We IDENTIFY sex, I.E "the child has a penis". I thought that was fairly clear.
We've participated in some of the same threads on these topics. You should know by now that the details matter!

So if I'm following you, the terms "male" and "female" are gender terms not biology terms? If so, then what are the biology terms?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
We assign gender, we don't assign sex. I explicitly stated twice that we assign GENDER. We IDENTIFY sex, I.E "the child has a penis". I thought that was fairly clear.
If I may, @ImmortalFlame Why do folks insist on using the word "assign". The term is not accurate. Could you perhaps shed some light on why the usage of this word is appropriate that I'm simply missing?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
We've participated in some of the same threads on these topics. You should know by now that the details matter!
I'm answering your questions. If details matter, then pay attention to the details of the answers I have given, and you'll find your follow-up questions have already been answered.

So if I'm following you, the terms "male" and "female" are gender terms not biology terms?
You're not following me, because I never said that. They can be both. We refer to "male and female" as social and biological categories.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Thank you for this, @Snow White

I remember watching, Marcus, the Offensive Tranny, one day and he was commenting on how weird it is that non-binary people seem to be only on the left wing. Though they may exist, I too have not seen or met any non-binary person who identified as Liberal or Conservative.
In what way are you differentiating left wing from liberal?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If I may, @ImmortalFlame Why do folks insist on using the word "assign". The term is not accurate.
Yes it is. We see a child has a certain biological makeup or appearance, and we assign their gender based on the assumption it will match their sex. We don't call our children "boys" and give them male names and pronouns because of the child's preference. It's assigned to them.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Yes it is. We see a child has a certain biological makeup or appearance, and we assign their gender based on the assumption it will match their sex. We don't call our children "boys" and give them male names and pronouns because of the child's preference. It's assigned to them.
Thanks for the clarification.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Um, in a conventional sense? Perhaps you are being too subtle for me though.
Conservatives don't typically bother making such a distinction. I assume you mean the bottom left vs. upper left quadrants of the political compass? That, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus. It's often not consistent or even coherent. I've actually been called "rightwing" because I'm not anti-capitalist. I've also been called a "socialist" because I don't believe that everything should be privatized and for-profit, and for believing that workers, consumers, and the environment should be protected.

but anyway, from my personal experience and observations (for whatever that's worth) I haven't noticed any overt correlation between transgenderism and *communism. Regardless, it shouldn't be a surprise that someone wouldn't support a party that opposes their very existence.

*Actual communism, not "communism" as in anything conservatives either don't like or don't understand.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Conservatives don't typically bother making such a distinction.
Forgive me for "brooking the trend".

I assume you mean the bottom left vs. upper left quadrants of the political compass? That, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus. It's often not consistent or even coherent. I've actually been called "right wing" because I'm not anti-capitalist. I've also been called a "socialist" because I don't believe that everything should be privatized and for-profit, and for believing that workers, consumers, and the environment should be protected.
So, you are a reasonable person. M'kay. So far, so good.
but anyway, from my personal experience and observations (for whatever that's worth) I haven't noticed any overt correlation between transgenderism and *communism. Regardless, it shouldn't be a surprise that someone wouldn't support a party that opposes their very existence.

*Actual communism, not "communism" as in anything conservatives either don't like or don't understand.
You're almost as bad as I am for getting fixated on a specific word. :) (I mean that in a good way.)

The comment was purely observational and was never meant to be definitive in any way. It was more of a "What's with that?" type thing. If anything, I'd be more inclined to say that they are representative graduates of our current education system that certainly tilts to the left of the political spectrum.

In regard to communism, I do agree with your sentiment. I was not, for example, meaning that non-binary folks were fire-breathing Marxists, but at the same time, I am rather certain they are not closet Tories. Does that help?
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
If anything, I'd be more inclined to say that they are representative graduates of our current education system that certainly tilts to the left of the political spectrum.
Naturally, the more educated and informed someone is, the more likely they are to lean left. :smirk:
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Naturally, the more educated and informed someone is, the more likely they are to lean left. :smirk:
There are reasons for that, but we can leave that for another day.



I have to go now and deal with my friend's ongoing emotional drama. At least I get to play with the dogs for a minute. *sigh*
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm answering your questions. If details matter, then pay attention to the details of the answers I have given, and you'll find your follow-up questions have already been answered.


You're not following me, because I never said that. They can be both. We refer to "male and female" as social and biological categories.

So if a biologist or scientist or doctor is dealing with an issue for which biology is critical, what terms should they now use? E.g., if we're talking about prostate issues, who can get them?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes it is. We see a child has a certain biological makeup or appearance, and we assign their gender based on the assumption it will match their sex. We don't call our children "boys" and give them male names and pronouns because of the child's preference. It's assigned to them.
I missed this thread during travels and subsequent battling with covid but sex assignment is also a thing. The identifying of specifically genitals and then assigning a legal sex designation by a doctor at birth. It's not based on chromosomal sex though, only a fallible visual assessment of gonadal sex.

The takeaway though is the assignment part is specifically pen to legal or medical page checking thay 'm' 'f' or 'intersex' box on the birth certificate and medical records.

Unfortunately most government documents adapting with the speed of molasses means gender and sex aren't separated yet. So changing your legal sex has nothing to do with medical sex reassignment.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So if a biologist or scientist or doctor is dealing with an issue for which biology is critical, what terms should they now use? E.g., if we're talking about prostate issues, who can get them?
Male/female sex (as opposed to man/woman gender), AMAB and AFAB, cis gender and/or nonbinary x with y studied focus is in circulation now.

Sometimes other terms arise as the need arises. For example, birthing person was around before trans dialogue was widely talked about because many if not most donor and surrogates did not wish to be identified as 'mother.' And lots of trans men and nonbinary people have adopted similar language.

E.g. AMAB people or people with prostates should get cancer screening between 40 and 50 years of age.
 
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