What God/Gods really are.

[Blastcat]

I can give you an explanation that explains God/s and the human condition. It is logical and supported by science, but I can not make you accept what I say.

Then why bother saying it?

Most of you will reject it because it challenges your comfortable illusion of a divine parent taking care of you.

Nothing like telling us what we think to make us accept what you think about what we think, right?

I can even give the closest thing to actual divinity that we have, one that may even be conscious to some degree, but again most if you will reject the idea because you want to protect your own.

Apparently, anyone who doesn't think like YOU DO.. are utterly closed minded. What a coincidence.

So for the purposes of this discussion try to empty your cup. Do not immediately get defensive, try to think about what I say as if you are a blank slate.

The better to influence the naive person. I don't give UP my rational mind when I am to consider a bunch of ideas. Sorry. Not as EMPTY here as you might like me to be.

P.S.

I didn't read your probably fascinating theories. I thought your insulting introduction was quite enough.

 

[Esoqq]

You explained the human condition very well. I don't know how accurately, (I'm not that knowledgible in Psychology), but very well.
Unfortunately the issue of God and the existence of the Soul and the science that supports those concepts, wasn't addressed. Religion to some degree, yes, but not God and the existence of the soul not so much

 

[MansFriend]

I encourage you to take your ideas and put them to the test of deciphering how much holy writ says what you are claiming.

I agree each individual human being has a consciousness that gives them a link to all other human beings at some level. We don't necessarily need the planet earth's energy field to facilitate this interconnection. If anything it could be the energy of the earth that inhibits what might otherwise be more profound. When you read about the astronaught's experience being in outer space it seems their sense of interconnectedness increased rather than reduced.

Our brain and/or heart is like a portal or an interface to this higher collective consciousness and it does give us our conscience. I like how you tied in how we are also linked, or as I like to say "tuned", into our ancestor's participation in this higher collective consciousness. We live through them and they continue living through us. We inherit many things from them because we are their creation in more ways than just physical.

If you read holy writ and take it as it says itself, it outlines how symbolic interpretation should be used to make sense of its strange manner of communicating. Of course, it also lays out the keys of interpretation as well, so that anyone reading it with an open mind can reach this actual intended conclusion it teaches. Think of it as an encrypted message God has sealed up or hidden until the time when God is willing to fully reveal Himself/Herself in plainness. Doesn't the Creator eventually wish to be known by what it creates? And, wouldn't that which is created wish to fully know and understand its Creator? God won't remain a mystery to those who acquire the keys to interpret the encrypted intelligence He/She has embedded in the Word of God.

What does it teach when thus deciphered? It teaches that within the collective human consciousness there are varying levels of knowledge and intelligence that are available to each human being and that as their knowledge increases and they obtain experience based upon that knowledge they open themselves up to be endowed by greater and greater intelligence. It teaches that we are eternal beings who go from one cycle of Creation to another in eternal rounds and that we co-exist with God because in fact our existence as a collective is God, among other various spiritual entities and powers. The intercessory prayer says very clearly that God expects for us to become one with Him through the mediator of a new covenant. The crux of this is those souls who receive the spiritual enlightenment that breathes a new spiritual life into their being, which is receiving a new spiritual birth, and who enter into a covenant with God and with all of their new spiritual brothers and sisters, that all of these individuals become, literally, members of the flesh and bone body of God. Also, on the evil side it works the same. Those who succumb to the enticements of the evil or demonic powers become the flesh and bone body of Satan. A God is a group of people joined together in a covenant that is accompanied by authorized servants to administer the ordinances of that group who literally are the flesh and bone body of God. It is in this manner that Christ is actually already here in the flesh as a resurrected being. People just don't have the eyes of their understanding opened to see it that way.

I could go into much more detail, but I just wanted to encourage you to put more effort into unlocking what holy writ teaches that supports a good part of what you have presented.

 

[YAW7911]

Spirits, beings born from mortal belief and anything in between. Could also be a mortal that achieve great growth, then there is the literal godhead who is inactive.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's a pretty good summary of why atheism can be a comforting belief for many. If life is merely an accident, not a gift, we owe no debt of gratitude for it, there are no higher expectations on us for how we use that gift- I agree entirely with you here.

So you point out that being a skeptic of atheism, is not falling into 'wishful thinking' but rather facing and accepting the most likely reality based on what most of humanity concludes from the evidence around them, rather than an emotional perspective.

And I think that's why you see emotions generally running far higher on the atheist side on this forum.

Sez the periodic table of the elements...

Einstein goes.....

=0b

 

[Bill Van Fleet]

I would essentially line-up with Kilgore.

Could there ever be religion (spiritual consciousness) without gods?

Yes, Unitarian Universalism, or Humanianity in general.

 

[Laughing Coyote]

This picture of science you give is modeled on Ricardian notions that underlay much of what is wrong with science by inserting their unsupported premises.

1. that things can be understood on their own terms: your 'natural state' presents an isolated individual and bases itself on a form of science which says we can know things in isolation on their own terms, which is simply not the case.

2. Starting with Ricardian notions, science doesn't know the way things are, it knows things which are parts in their own terms but not as part of larger levels of integration.

3. Science generates questions, and in answering them finds the original questions did not encompass enough factors so simply generates new questions.

3. Modeling the earth as a machine is 17th century notion that arose of of the mechanical inventions talking place at that time. It fails to recognize that the ecosphere or the part of the earth containing life from the top of the atmosphere down to about 70 km below the surface creates life, is created by life, regulated and maintained by life such that the earth itself is a living entity. It is creative all life and everything of important to us. It preceded us, created us, sustains us, and we are part of it and dependent upon it in its totality. Theory of this has been developing since the 19th century, at least: the concept of "biosphere" came out of geography and biology in the early 20th century, Gaia came out of space science and microbiology in the mid-20th century, and ecospherics came out of the ecology of Stan Rowe and the philosophies of Alfred North Whitehead and James K. Feibleman in the last quarter of the 20th century. As we and all living things are part of it, as we take it as our premise and are in every way dependent upon it, it has been said to be the "Deity Incarnate."

We don't know how things are. We know substances and organisms in some abstract senses, but we know very little about about higher integrative levels which can't be known by their parts: ecosystems, the ecosphere, and the celestial systems that we are part of. Nor do we know how they affect us or even how we are part of them.

When we categorize and make scientific theories of things we are making them into objects of our own consciousness whereby we are selecting certain possibilities of significance to us while excluding many others. We know a tree or a forest, for example, for its traits that are important to us, and we assign it usefulness in terms of the ways that we cut the trees for making our houses or furniture or enjoy it in various ways, but we don't know it as a squirrel or a bird or the fungus and other organisms living among its roots know it. Nor do we much care about its relationship with other trees or its role in the ecosystem.

You say that everything is caused by internal conflict, but that ignores our essence in being part of something. For example, we've poured hundreds of millions of tons of biocides and other chemicals all across the planet withshape it according to our ill-conceived notions of what we want and think we value, and now even children are born with all sorts of chemicals which are influencing their behavior, growth, health and prospects. Where does the internal begin and the external end?

You say that the divine is your consciousness, but nobody even understands what their consciousness is or where it comes from. How can such a statement mean anything?

The end is good question, but I'm not sure how different elements of your argument follow from each other. Many of your assumptions dated. Read the material on ecospherics.net, Stan Rowe's website, which actually is science based, meaning that it inspects its premises and develops logical arguments based on real things. I think you will enjoy it and it will help you develop your ideas. Then come back here with them here.

 

[Laughing Coyote]

What do you mean by believe? When people say they "believe," it implies to me they are excluding other possibilities. But how can you know them if you have decided that they are not of significance?

What is peace? What is love? What is happiness and how should we know that we have it? And so forth. How do you know any of these things? There are also more bacteria cells in our body than our own human ones. Which soul are we talking about? Are they serving us or are we serving them? Bacteria created all life and long after all life forms on the planet are gone, bacteria will persist. Perhaps some of their spores are on some of our present or future spacecraft on their way to other planets to seed life on them. From their perspective, and the perspective of the worlds and the life that is to come, that is our purpose for existing.

We (BKs) believe that we all are souls and intrinsically good and all the negativity is from the external arising from body consciousness and the five vices .
The soul is an embodiment of peace , love , happiness , knowledge, power , mercy and bliss.
Once this is realized there is no conflict and we are at peace with ourselves and rest of the world, and see variation of opinions as the variation in journeys.

 

[BSM1]

I can give you an explanation that explains God/s and the human condition. It is logical and supported by science, but I can not make you accept what I say.

Most of you will reject it because it challenges your comfortable illusion of a divine parent taking care of you.

I can even give the closest thing to actual divinity that we have, one that may even be conscious to some degree, but again most if you will reject the idea because you want to protect your own.

So for the purposes of this discussion try to empty your cup. Do not immediately get defensive, try to think about what I say as if you are a blank slate.

Imagine you are a in a natural state, before full consciousness. Your genetic intelligence, your instincts, the hard wired behavior that is passed down to you from your parents, determines how you operate.

Suddenly, you are conscious and you begin operating with nerve intelligence. Using your brain you start to make decisions on your own. Unfortunately your instincts, your genetic intelligence does not like that and tells you, that you are wrong, that you are not a good person. This makes you angry, you scream at the world, that you are a good person and you are going to prove it.

This makes it worse because now your instincts are telling you that you are bad for getting angry. This conflict between your genetic intelligence and your nerve intelligence is why humans are the way we are. We are angry and at war with ourselves. It is a psychological distress, a continuous cycle if anger hatred and guilt that causes us to do everything we can to prove ourselves wrong.

Ultimately when everything we try fails to fix how we feel, we become self destructive, hateful, violent or we avoid the issue through distractions.

On becoming conscious and determined to prove that we are good, we venture out into the world and realise that there is an order to things, a reverse entropy, a design into which we think we no longer fit.

We attribute this design to a higher intelligence, a divine parent. Then immediately believe ourselves to be unworthy of that parent as we are no longer part of the design. We cast ourselves out of Eden if you will.

This sets us up for more guilt, more self hate, more anger and the need to appease our divine parent with deeds and worship.

These internal conflicts are why selfishness, anger , hatred, conflict, violence , prejudice, exist in the world. It is what turned sex from something loving and beautiful into a shameful expression of the desire to kill innocence. It set up the conflict between man and women and created the need for god's. It is the root cause of the human condition.

However science has given us the answer , now that we know the reason we do the things we do. Now that we understand we are as subject to genetic memory as birds that fly north for the winter, we can relax, the war is over, we have a get out of jail free card.

Everything that you are fighting for, every thing that you do not like about yourself is caused by the internal conflict. Now that you understand the human condition there is no need to fight anymore. You can forgive yourself and everyone around you, because you understand why you/ they do what they do. Now you can get back to your natural state which is one of loving cooperation.

Where is the divine fit into all this? It is your conscience, the very thing you have been fighting with all this time.

Scientists discovered that by applying electricity to some base chemicals, they could make simple proteins, the building blocks of life. Making order out of chaos.

At some point in our distant past a similar thing probably hapened. Lightning literally sparked into being the basic building blocks of life. These early precursors were self organizing, capable of ever increasing complexity. Leading to the first genetic material and so on.

The earth on which we live is at its core basically a giant electric motor. Telluric currents run through the earth that can be measured at the earth's surface, like a heart beat.

Our brain has roughly 700 trillion connections. How many connections of conductive materials exist in the earth. How many connections exist between plants and the earth in which they grow. When you add to this the fact that the air is clearly conductive, how many animals are interacting with the electrical earth every day.

It is not a very large leap to think that this system has its own higher intelligence a sort of super consciousness. What if we are just the Earth experiencing itself?

I'll let you decide.

For a better explanation of the human condition, please have a look at www.humancondition.com

IMO, I believe where most 'God explanations/descriptions' go off the tracks is that they are trying to define God as the "What" when truly God may simply be the "Why".

 

[Quintessence]

I can give you an explanation that explains God/s and the human condition. It is logical and supported by science, but I can not make you accept what I say.

Most of you will reject it because it challenges your comfortable illusion of a divine parent taking care of you.

You lost me right here by making erroneous assumptions about the reader's theology and the reader's gods that are not necessarily correct. Well, and I suppose you also lost me with the unnecessarily patronizing attitude - but it annoys me more when people suppose to know what others' gods are like without bothering to ask them first.

As such, there doesn't seem much benefit to attempting to muddle through that massive wall of text when your assumptions don't even apply to me or many other theists.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Scientists discovered that by applying electricity to some base chemicals, they could make simple proteins, the building blocks of life. Making order out of chaos.

So how did the base chemicals and electricity come into existence?

 

[BSM1]

So how did the base chemicals and electricity come into existence?

And why?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And why?

And why what?

 

[BSM1]

And why what?

Why anything? What is the purpose of all this?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why anything? What is the purpose of all this?

Of all what...do you mean existence itself?

 

[BSM1]

Of all what...do you mean existence itself?

More than that, the idea of existence to begin with.

 

[Tabu]

What do you mean by believe? When people say they "believe," it implies to me they are excluding other possibilities. But how can you know them if you have decided that they are not of significance?

What is peace? What is love? What is happiness and how should we know that we have it? And so forth. How do you know any of these things? There are also more bacteria cells in our body than our own human ones. Which soul are we talking about? Are they serving us or are we serving them? Bacteria created all life and long after all life forms on the planet are gone, bacteria will persist. Perhaps some of their spores are on some of our present or future spacecraft on their way to other planets to seed life on them. From their perspective, and the perspective of the worlds and the life that is to come, that is our purpose for existing.

Believing to me means this is according to the best of my understanding and it comes after exploring many possibilities within my scope ,
it isn't necessary that any two people reach the same understanding at the same time ,because of different experiences and related inclinations.
As for your other questions , these is my understanding based on BK knowledge , (other BKs may give a much better explanation , but none here)
What is Peace ?
Peace is stability at the thought level where you have learned to put a full stop to all the waste thoughts and able to focus only on the positive ones of hope and acceptance of one self and others.
What is Happiness?
Happiness is on a higher level , where you not just accept but enjoy everything as a detached observer , as watching a drama , because ones realization of one being a soul partaking in the drama of life has reached a level of certainty. So such a person doesn't get involved in this drama and sway with it but remains detached and happy.
What is love?
Love is accepting and having good opinion of oneself , others and God. This comes from the belief in the inherent potential for good in all souls.
How do we know we have these ?
How do we know we need water , and our body needs a certain balance of water ? We know this through certain symptoms which our body displays when these are reduced , like feeling thirsty , and an urge which drives us towards an effort to fulfill this urge and restore this balance.
Similarly when our soul feels a shortage of peace , love or happiness it displays an urge through the body in the form of restlessness , sorrow , grief or any such psychosomatic illnesses, and this pushes us towards an effort to restore the balance.
Unfortunately, like how we are treating many diseases presently by just curing the symptoms and not trying to find the cause or seed of it and eliminate it, we try to cure those symptoms through material acquisition , which temporarily do away with the symptoms , but since the inner balance has not been restored these symptoms keep sprouting and spreading.
How do we know all these?
We(BKs) know this through our understanding and experience of the Godly knowledge which we call ,The Murli , the sweet flute of God which restores the souls to their original nature of stability , peace and happiness where there is no disturbance or sorrow.
Which souls are we taking about?
Definitely the human soul 'atma' here , (and the Supreme Soul ,is The Ocean , The Purifier , The restorer , The Light and Might House of the souls).
The Purpose of existence is not just existence and extension , but peaceful co-existence and to ex tensions.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

More than that, the idea of existence to begin with.

Ok, I understand there was no beginning, existence is eternal, and unified, so questions about where it came from are irrelevant, it did not come from anywhere, it has always existed. It is only the manifested forms that have beginnings and endings relative to human observations, though in truth, it is one everlasting movement.

 

[YAW7911]

Ok, I understand there was no beginning, existence is eternal, and unified, so questions about where it came from are irrelevant, it did not come from anywhere, it has always existed. It is only the manifested forms that have beginnings and endings relative to human observations, though in truth, it is one everlasting movement.

It's not that. It's logic relies on existence thus you cannot use a system to comprehend what is more fundamental. But at that level time is irrelevant so does eternity, a concept dependent on time, even matter?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's not that. It's logic relies on existence thus you cannot use a system to comprehend what is more fundamental. But at that level time is irrelevant so does eternity, a concept dependent on time, even matter?

Yes that too, timelessness is a more appropriate word than eternal. Imho, time is a concept arising from the human mind's observations of the relative movement as apparent aspects of the one, whether it be the measurement of relative movement of the stars, planets, etc., or pendulums, quartz crystals, atomic oscillations, etc., and is immaterial.