What godless means

[lewisnotmiller]

Godless is always used as a derogatory term.
No question.
It's a given.

I believe that godlessness has nothing to do with atheism. Since many atheists are good and can be godly, and some theists are evil and godless.
Within the Vatican there are godless people, I can promise you that. And it deals with Italian high prelates.
You can't even imagine the horrors that the Vatican walls conceal. There is no God in the hearts of those people.
So the fact that they call themselves Catholics is irrelevant.

Secondly: language is a tool that needs to express philosophical and theological notions. It's a tool. Metaphorical meaning of words is needed. Literal meaning of words stifles freedom of speech. It stifles the philosophical afflatus. It stifles debate.

When I am called 'godless' in derogatory fashion, over the course of my almost 49 years, it has ALWAYS been a commentary on my atheism, and NEVER been a comment on my wicked behaviour. My atheism is conflated with wicked behaviour (ie. I must be a liar, and damned) but it has never, ever had a single thing to do with an action I've taken.

I am yet to argue that some theists are good, and some not, and some atheists are good, and some not. My argument is with your use of a term which has meaning, and how you are using it in a non-standard way and not understanding the usage by the sources you are linking to, or how the usage is commonly experienced by atheists. Instead, you continue to defend the use of the word in a non-standard way for God only knows what purpose.

Once again....there is no God in my heart. I am godless. If you want to declare me wicked, just do so. If you instead wish to say I'm not, because I have a god, by all means articulate what my god is.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'd probably agree if I looked at the post again, but one thing I did want to add is that there are a few Christians out there who believe the mark of the antiChrist is money. (I'm not saying the OP does, though).

People who (colloquially) worship money are 'greedy', not godless. Indeed, the OP would have you believe that it's better to worship money (a false god) than worship nothing, because at least you wouldn't be godless.

 

[Estro Felino]

I actually suspect you and I might have a different idea of theists as I consider anyone who identifies as a theist, and doesn't raise very extraordinary doubt that they belong to their faith, as one.

(Even in cases of doubt, that doubt has more to do with whether they do things like follow the customs correctly - not necessarily based on their morality.)

But, okay. Here are some examples in my eyes . Natalie Portman is Jewish. Trump is Christian, although certain things, like holding the Bible upside down, may possibly bring it into question. The band Paramore was very interested in Christianity for awhile, but appears to be dipping out of that interest. The lead singer of Flyleaf is Christian. Obama is a Democrat Protestant Christian.

If the lead band of the Flyleaf did unspeakable things, I would call them godless.
Even if they are theists. It's irrelevant.
I hope the concept is clear, now.

 

[Estro Felino]

When I am called 'godless' in derogatory fashion, over the course of my almost 49 years, it has ALWAYS been a commentary on my atheism, and NEVER been a comment on my wicked behaviour. My atheism is conflated with wicked behaviour (ie. I must be a liar, and damned) but it has never, ever had a single thing to do with an action I've taken.

I am yet to argue that some theists are good, and some not, and some atheists are good, and some not. My argument is with your use of a term which has meaning, and how you are using it in a non-standard way and not understanding the usage by the sources you are linking to, or how the usage is commonly experienced by atheists. Instead, you continue to defend the use of the word in a non-standard way for God only knows what purpose.

Once again....there is no God in my heart. I am godless. If you want to declare me wicked, just do so. If you instead wish to say I'm not, because I have a god, by all means articulate what my god is.

If you are a good atheist, why does it bother you that I call bad atheists "godless"?
It's like you wanted to defend them...
Correct me if I am wrong.

If you say the Vatican is corrupt and rotten, no good Catholic will feel offended. I can promise you that.
No matter how Catholicism and Vatican are synonyms.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'd probably agree if I looked at the post again, but one thing I did want to add is that there are a few Christians out there who believe the mark of the antiChrist is money. (I'm not saying the OP does, though).

Of course I do...
I mean the worship of profit maximization, unbridled Capitalism is that mark.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

People who (colloquially) worship money are 'greedy', not godless. Indeed, the OP would have you believe that it's better to worship money (a false god) than worship nothing, because at least you wouldn't be godless.

That's the way that both of us might see it.

However, I think that multiple things are going on in the OP, such as language barrier, using a loaded term, using lots of metaphor, and trying to compliment atheists but not only kind of slandering them in the process, but saying that they "believe in" things like art, which could give the false impression that they treat it the level theists treat God.

So the way I'd approach things in this case myself is to be understanding of the Original Poster, but simply critique some of the ideas in the thread despite that understanding.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

If the lead band of the Flyleaf did unspeakable things, I would call them godless.
Even if they are theists. It's irrelevant.
I hope the concept is clear, now.

It's clear, I think. I just disagree with it.

 

[Trailblazer]

True enough. It's not generally offered to us without judgement.

I'm godless. But I could count on one hand the number of times a theist has called me such without it being negative and judgemental. I've most often been called godless when either being told why 'my people' are untrustworthy, or when being told that I'm destined for damnation.

I certainly know what you mean, but I would never say that about atheists, since I don't believe it is true.

According to my religion the word "ungodly" is a reference to perverse and wayward people.

Dictionary definitions of "wayward" include "childishly self-willed or perverse, capricious" and "unaccountable"; and the definition of "perverse" includes "stubbornly departing from what is reasonable", "persistent in error", "perverted" and "wicked". These are personality traits that can be seen in various behaviors, and they have nothing to do with whether a person believes in God or not.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Surely. I am using it in a fashion that is very common in my country.
In my country we use it as a derogatory term.
It doesn't mean atheist. Because if I meant atheists, I would say atheists.

I've made this point a bunch of times though, and am yet to get an answer. Are you suggesting I have a god, or not?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I certainly know what you mean, but I would never say that about atheists, since I don't believe it is true.

According to my religion the word "ungodly" is a reference to perverse and wayward people.

Dictionary definitions of "wayward" include "childishly self-willed or perverse, capricious" and "unaccountable"; and the definition of "perverse" includes "stubbornly departing from what is reasonable", "persistent in error", "perverted" and "wicked". These are personality traits that can be seen in various behaviors, and they have nothing to do with whether a person believes in God or not.

Sorry, I could have been clearer, there.

The majority of believers that I have met personally are fine with me being an atheist. Their opinion generally falls between 'I don't care, I'll judge you on your actions' to 'Oh, that's a little sad, because my relationship with God is really cool and I wish you had that too'.
I have a bunch of friends who are Christians, and some have on occasion prayed for me to find God (some I am aware of, I mean).

I do think there is a little cultural baggage in the conflation of lost and wayward people with 'ungodly', but that term makes more sense to me the godless.
I do wonder, @Estro Felino if ungodly would be a fair translation of what you say in Italian, rather than godless?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If you are a good atheist, why does it bother you that I call bad atheists "godless"?
It's like you wanted to defend them...
Correct me if I am wrong.

You're one thousand percent wrong. My point is that I am godless. And ******* atheists are godless. So when you say 'godless people are wicked' you are saying that someone like Stalin is wicked (cool) and also that I'm in the same bucket. Umm...nope. I'm defending myself here, not bad atheists.

If you say the Vatican is corrupt and rotten, no good Catholic will feel offended. I can promise you that.
No matter how Catholicism and Vatican are synonyms.

I'd be judging it by it's fruits and offering evidence. Whomsoever wishes to judge me on evidenced behaviour is more than welcome to.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That's the way that both of us might see it.

However, I think that multiple things are going on in the OP, such as language barrier, using a loaded term, using lots of metaphor, and trying to compliment atheists but not only kind of slandering them in the process, but saying that they "believe in" things like art, which could give the false impression that they treat it the level theists treat God.

So the way I'd approach things in this case myself is to be understanding of the Original Poster, but simply critique some of the ideas in the thread despite that understanding.

Yup. And I like your approach. I'll not pretend that I'm being anything other than prickly here.
I almost never am, but this term gets to me, and it's the second poster throwing it around in as many days, both claiming different meaning and intent.

However...I did more recently suggest to @Estro Felino that perhaps 'ungodly' is a better translation than 'godless'. This is based on something @Trailblazer said which kinda made sense to me.
Whilst calling someone 'ungodly' is obviously from a theistic viewpoint, I'd see that as a judgement on actions, rather than belief.

A Christian calling someone 'ungodly' would be more akin to saying 'they're not following Jesus' example' I believe, and fits better with judging believers and non-believers alike by their actions.
Sure, the judgement would be skewed based on the belief of the observer, but to some degree that is invariably true of all of us.

 

[Estro Felino]

I certainly know what you mean, but I would never say that about atheists, since I don't believe it is true.

According to my religion the word "ungodly" is a reference to perverse and wayward people.

Dictionary definitions of "wayward" include "childishly self-willed or perverse, capricious" and "unaccountable"; and the definition of "perverse" includes "stubbornly departing from what is reasonable", "persistent in error", "perverted" and "wicked". These are personality traits that can be seen in various behaviors, and they have nothing to do with whether a person believes in God or not.

Exactly.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Exactly.

ungodly <> godless

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Yup. And I like your approach. I'll not pretend that I'm being anything other than prickly here.
I almost never am, but this term gets to me, and it's the second poster throwing it around in as many days, both claiming different meaning and intent.

However...I did more recently suggest to @Estro Felino that perhaps 'ungodly' is a better translation than 'godless'. This is based on something @Trailblazer said which kinda made sense to me.
Whilst calling someone 'ungodly' is obviously from a theistic viewpoint, I'd see that as a judgement on actions, rather than belief.

A Christian calling someone 'ungodly' would be more akin to saying 'they're not following Jesus' example' I believe, and fits better with judging believers and non-believers alike by their actions.
Sure, the judgement would be skewed based on the belief of the observer, but to some degree that is invariably true of all of us.

There's also "impious" (I like this term so far)

 

[Estro Felino]

I have a bunch of friends who are Christians, and some have on occasion prayed for me to find God (some I am aware of, I mean).

I totally distance myself from such Christians because I think freedom of conscience implies freedom of choice.
A choice can never be imposed.

I do think there is a little cultural baggage in the conflation of lost and wayward people with 'ungodly', but that term makes more sense to me the godless.
I do wonder, @Estro Felino if ungodly would be a fair translation of what you say in Italian, rather than godless?

Exactly. I think ungodly would be a better translation.
The problem is that there is not such a term in Italian. There is godless, atheist, and that's it.
Even if I am typing in English, I think in Italian.
Semantics is absolutely lost in translation, because my mind automatically translates my thoughts. But the thoughts are delivered by my brain in Italian.

For example, we use the expression "the mind delivers a thought" as if it were a birth of something.
It's a very metaphorical language.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

There's also "impios" (I like this term so far)

Impious?

Hmm...maybe.
I attended church yesterday and was at pains to keep my toddler quiet, sit and stand as appropriate, and wish those next to me peace.

I didn't pray (that seems duplicitous to me).

So...I am godless. But I'm unsure if piety requires mere respect for religion, or adherance to one.

Regardless, my preference is to be judged based on actions.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Impious?

Hmm...maybe.
I attended church yesterday and was at pains to keep my toddler quiet, sit and stand as appropriate, and wish those next to me peace.

I didn't pray (that seems duplicitous to me).

So...I am godless. But I'm unsure if piety requires mere respect for religion, or adherance to one.

Regardless, my preference is to be judged based on actions.

I meant "impious" as a term that @Estro Felino could use

 

[Estro Felino]

I meant "impios" as a term that @Estro Felino could use

All my friends are atheists.
It's nearly impossible to find a theist in a juridical environment (like law school), or in a highly intellectual environment, in Italy.
I can promise you that.

And by that I am dissing the cultural level of theists here, I am aware of that.

But they do agree with me. That impiousness or wickedness brings atheists and theists together,
as much as goodness brings atheists and theists together.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've made this point a bunch of times though, and am yet to get an answer. Are you suggesting I have a god, or not?

Surely. You do.
There is something godly in your life.