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What happens to us when we die?

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
whatever happens after death, there is no doubt that we live on - even if it is only in others' memories, and thelegacies of the actions we have taken in life.

To some extent, therefore, it could be saidthat ourpersonality survives death.

This is the Jewish view, we live on in the memories of others. That's why Jews are so big on the "Hilda Fishbein Memorial Drinking Fountain" and the like.

In fact we live on in many ways. Every one of our actions is like a pebble in a pond with ripples that extend outward and affect other people and their actions; that's part of what it means to be human.

Our physical substance is reincorporated into the universal substance of matter/energy, which goes on forever. (I know this sounds all spiritual and hippy-dippy, but is cold scientific fact.)

What I don't think does persist is our ability to perceive, remember and be self-aware.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
This is the Jewish view, we live on in the memories of others. That's why Jews are so big on the "Hilda Fishbein Memorial Drinking Fountain" and the like.

In fact we live on in many ways. Every one of our actions is like a pebble in a pond with ripples that extend outward and affect other people and their actions; that's part of what it means to be human.

Our physical substance is reincorporated into the universal substance of matter/energy, which goes on forever. (I know this sounds all spiritual and hippy-dippy, but is cold scientific fact.)

What I don't think does persist is our ability to perceive, remember and be self-aware.

Yes, I entirely agree with all of the above.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief here....
I don't agree.

For every cause there is an effect, and for every effect there is a cause.

Usually this axiom is applied to physical events.
But as you all have agreed that we could live on in the memories and influences we have on the others we leave behind......

You are now over looking the over all picture.
There are 6billion people on this planet.
If I live to the age of my departed grandfather, there will be 12billion.

Life expectancy is 80 years, give or take a few, depending where you live.
By the numbers I can say, with certainty, 6billion people will die within in my life time.
That's a lot of remembering to do.
It will be finite in practice. It would be incomplete, even with the best record keeping at hand, and ultimately futile as even this earth will pass away.

So why is there life...physically?
To generate the intellect...the individual...the unique and different perspective.
Someone once said..."I think therefore I am."
That is correct.
I have been blind....my limbs unresponsive...and on another occasion, beyond pain for more than an hour.
During these incidents I did not stop thinking, nor did my emotions vanish.
Death does not definitively end what we are.

The change....the crossing over....is elusive to science.
It is also elusive to those who make denial.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Actually, the atoms that compose our bodies will still exist as matter or energy, so in a sense, we'll be around forever.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief here....
Actually....energy cannot be destroyed.
The spirit is free of physical form.
It is the lack of physical form that keeps science and faith separate.
Science desires the experiment.
Experimenting with spirits seems unscientific somehow.

Trying to prove each item you would be willing to believe in...by science...could leave you with very little to believe in.

Hasn't one participant already confessed to believing in nothing?

As for the next life....I still believe in it....and I do meditate to the scheme of things.
For example...hierarchy in this life...hierarchy in the next.
People with greater and lesser abilities in this life...likewise in the next.
Fewer limitations....such as forward vision only...will cease.
Dream state may become continuous.....no waking up.
 
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cottage

Well-Known Member

Thief here....
I don't agree.

For every cause there is an effect, and for every effect there is a cause.

Usually this axiom is applied to physical events.
But as you all have agreed that we could live on in the memories and influences we have on the others we leave behind......

You are now over looking the over all picture.
There are 6billion people on this planet.
If I live to the age of my departed grandfather, there will be 12billion.

Life expectancy is 80 years, give or take a few, depending where you live.
By the numbers I can say, with certainty, 6billion people will die within in my life time.
That's a lot of remembering to do.
It will be finite in practice. It would be incomplete, even with the best record keeping at hand, and ultimately futile as even this earth will pass away.


I think you may have misunderstood Autodidact’s post? She said: ‘What I don’t think does persist is our ability to perceive, remember and be self-aware.’ And from my perspective, to speak of ‘living on’ means indefinite and not existing eternally. The world and everything it contains could end tomorrow.

So why is there life...physically?
To generate the intellect...the individual...the unique and different perspective.
Someone once said..."I think therefore I am."

That is correct.

It was Rene Descartes who said that…and he was wrong! His mistake was that he assumed the ‘I’, instead of ‘There is thinking, therefore thinking exists’.

I have been blind....my limbs unresponsive...and on another occasion, beyond pain for more than an hour.
During these incidents I did not stop thinking, nor did my emotions vanish.
Death does not definitively end what we are.


But then you are not describing death, are you?



The change....the crossing over....is elusive to science.
It is also elusive to those who make denial.


Now you’re speaking of an article of faith.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Thief here....
Actually....energy cannot be destroyed.

Energy isn't matter and so cannot be destroyed, but since it exists with the physical world it too can be logically anihilated: it doesn't have to exist.

The spirit is free of physical form.

Yes, by definition - which doesn't entail the existence of spirit.

It is the lack of physical form that keeps science and faith separate.
Science desires the experiment.
Experimenting with spirits seems unscientific somehow.

Trying to prove each item you would be willing to believe in...by science...could leave you with very little to believe in.


Hasn't one participant already confessed to believing in nothing?

As for the next life....I still believe in it....and I do meditate to the scheme of things.
For example...hierarchy in this life...hierarchy in the next.
People with greater and lesser abilities in this life...likewise in the next.
Fewer limitations....such as forward vision only...will cease.
Dream state may become continuous.....no waking up.

Life after death is just a speculative belief, around which people construct metaphysical systems seeking to explain it. But it is still just a belief, not a fact or a truth.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief here...Cottage...your lack of belief is noted.
This topic is not for proving...life after death.

If you don't believe...fine.
I believe in the life after death....and this topic title moves on from that premise.
Please allow the speculation to continue.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Thief here...Cottage...your lack of belief is noted.
This topic is not for proving...life after death.

If you don't believe...fine.
I believe in the life after death....and this topic title moves on from that premise.
Please allow the speculation to continue.

You are speculating that life continues in some form following death. I too am speculating (since there is no certainty) that when our corporeal form degrades, thereby contributing to the continuity of the material world, the mind being the same as the brain follows the same course. If there is no brain, and therefore no mind, what is it that somehow lives on? My speculative conclusion, therefore, is that nothing survives the death of the body.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief here....your lack of belief is noted.

In the after life.....having surrendered this mortal coil....
Anyone having crossed over before you will come to have a look,
whatever has risen from the dust.
They will look you over.

It takes some discipline to move along in this life.
I suspect the same for the next.
It will take a strong disciplined will to get you out of this life.
It may take even more to sustain yourself...later on.

Even so....if They do not approve of you....you might find yourself...shunned.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
What I don't think does persist is our ability to perceive, remember and be self-aware.


Well this is the reason most "spiritual paths" to use a simplistic label....

teach that we must become "saved"; by saved, I mean we must enter through some form of spiritual transformation....

Without this transformation we indeed do not "remember" or are self aware...the personality dies, now of course it gets complex with rebirth and reincarnation (which are not the same thing) which is also found in Judaism, those silly Jews have changed their mind about death many times over the centuries...

...

Afterlife
by Ilil Arbel, Ph.D.

This article is based on a large number Talmudic legends, and on
statements from the Zohar.

From its inception, Judaism did not dwell on the afterlife. The Jew
followed the will of God for its own sake, not for reward in Heaven
or for fear of punishment in Hell. It is inevitable, though, that a
religion as old as Judaism would develop some thoughts regarding the
afterlife, particularly since association with people of other
religions exposed the Jews to many theories. However, the
disinclination to stress the afterlife resulted in diverse opinions
that were never combined into one dominant theory. Some of these
thoughts even contradict one another, and they served as a base to
fascinating myth and folklore.

The Structure of the Soul

A human being on earth unites two parts -- a body and a soul. Each
part is extremely complex in structure and consists of multiple
components. While the body's structure is reasonably well understood,
the structure of the soul is a mystery many tried to analyze. One
Talmudic opinion divides it into three major segments:

Nefesh: the lower, animal part, related to the instincts and to the
reactions of the body.

Ruach: the spirit, or the middle soul, linked to the understanding of
morality and the ability to differentiate between good and evil.
Neshama: the higher soul, linked to the intellect, and separating
humanity from all other life forms. It allows the person to be aware
of God, and to participate in the afterlife.


According to the Zohar, which leans toward a mystical view of the
universe, two additional soul parts may be developed by very few,
select individuals who have the capacity of sublime levels of
intuitive cognition:


Chayyah -- the part of the soul that is aware of the divine life
force.

Yehidah -- the highest part of the soul, capable of achieving full
union with God.


When the body dies, the soul components come apart, and each segment
follows a separate road. The lower parts must undergo purification;
the higher parts aim to join with God. Nefesh remains with the body
for about twelve months, guarding the grave and occasionally roaming
the earth for the purpose of learning. Ruach goes to Gehinnom
(Purgatory), to purge itself from the sins the person committed in
life, and prepare for the future life of the soul. Neshama goes to
the lower Gan Eden (Paradise), Chayyah and Yehida return to Upper Gan
Eden.


The Stages of the Journey


In rabbinic teachings, Olam Haba took many shapes and forms. To some,
it is simply our own fully physical world, made better after the
coming of the Messiah. To others it means Paradise, a spiritual
place. Often, a journey is described, where the soul will encounter
certain stages:


Hibbut ha-kever (the suffering of the grave)
A Jew who truly believes in God has little fear of dying. He sees
death as a simple transition from one life to another. God will be
the same there as He is here, and that is all that matters because in
either life the one goal is to serve Him. The separation of body and
soul is as simple, according to Talmudic transition, as removing a
hair out of a glass of milk.


To the less than perfectly pure, the separation can be more
difficult. The soul of the worldly Jew strongly identifies with the
body -- an erroneous but powerful notion that makes watching the body
undergo decay and be eaten by worms extremely unpleasant. However,
this mental agony serves a purpose; it awakens the soul from its
wrong assumptions and allows the separation from the body to occur.
Dumah (the angel of silence)
....................

The Option of Reincarnation


Once in the Olam Haba, the soul cannot acquire new good deeds or
blessings, only the enrichment of the understanding of the life it
led on earth. After the soul learned all that Heaven can teach it
following a particular life, it may apply for reincarnation so that
it can learn from new circumstances or acquire additional good deeds.
But helping oneself is not the only reason to come back to earth.
Some souls are so loving, they wish to go back to earth to help
others. Some want to correct any wrong doing they committed.
Reincarnation is entirely voluntary, and the soul can apply for this
privilege at any time -- before or after Gehinnom, anytime in Gan
Eden -- until they have created a spiritual body for itself. The
spiritual body is the last step before the ultimate goal -- total
merging with God.


The dead may come back to earth without full reincarnation by
temporarily entering the body of a living human being. Ibbur, a
benign form of such union, is done to help the living person, or for
performing a few good deeds. Dybbuk, on the other hand, is a negative
form of possession, which is experienced when the soul gives way to
negative feelings of revenge and unhappiness. In this case, a rabbi
must educate the possessing spirit and persuade it to find peace and
leave the world of the living.

extract from: Afterlife « Prayers and Reflections
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Thief here....your lack of belief is noted.

In the after life.....having surrendered this mortal coil....
Anyone having crossed over before you will come to have a look,
whatever has risen from the dust.
They will look you over.

It takes some discipline to move along in this life.
I suspect the same for the next.
It will take a strong disciplined will to get you out of this life.
It may take even more to sustain yourself...later on.

Even so....if They do not approve of you....you might find yourself...shunned.

You keep making statements and assertions as if they were true. I'm amused by the way you presume to speak from authority, as if to claim special knowledge, and then for good measure imply menance, childishly believing this will perhaps intimidate the doubter. Life after death is only a b-e-l-i-e-f, not knowledge! You know this, of course, and have already confirmed it by the statements you've made previously.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Thief here....your lack of belief is noted.

Having surrendered the flesh.....
You should expect to encounter ...anyone... who has 'crossed over'.
Having gone before you, they will have the advantage.
They will be familiar with the territory, the language... the overall scheme of things.
No doubt. They will ask something.
That 6billion people will die within my life time...indicates a lot of noise....a large crowd...perhaps some 'pushing and shoving'.

The scenario is quite simple.
You lay down to surrender your last breath.
You then...'stand up'....or resurrect...in the spirit.
You will be set upon immediately.
They will... no doubt...no doubt at all....ask you something.
They next thing you say will make all the difference.
 
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