What happens to us when we die?

[Ben Dhyan]

What happens to us when we die?

It depends on what you identify yourself with.

If you primarily identify with your body, then its constituent elements will return to the elemental environment and you cease to exist as a body but continue as elemental and other.

If you primarily identify with the life force that animates the body, then these life giving energies merge back into the Earth's life field environment and you cease to exist as an animated body, but continue as elemental, life fields and other.

If you primarily identify with the consciousness/ego of your animated body, than this self-awareness will merge back into the cosmic consciousness environment and you cease to exist as a self-aware animated body, but continue to exist as elemental, life fields, cosmic consciousness and other.

If you primarily identify with the spiritual soul incarnate in the self-aware animated body, then the spirit of the soul merges back into the spiritual environment and you cease to exist as an spiritual incarnate self-aware animated body, but continue to exist as elemental, life field, cosmic consciousness, spiritual consciousness, and other.

If you primarily identify with the infinite eternal cosmic unity, since this infinite eternal cosmic is actually imperishable, you do not cease to exist but continue as the infinite eternal cosmic unity, which includes all finite and temporal realms of the eternal infinite spheres of elemental, life fields, cosmic consciousness, and spiritual consciousness.

 

[logician]

"Apparently the standard in this thread is just to make declarations as if they were fact"

That's always the religious standard.

 

[Nepenthe]

Ok Auto, practice what you preach. I too would like you to provide what evidence you can furnish for your own beliefs (or lack of them.)
If you demand evidence....where is your own? Are they not assumptions too, based on faith? Pot calling the kettle black?

Oh my.... Auto' will swing by and correct you I'm sure but I'll respond to these just 'cause the're arguments out of the 19th century and never deserved to see the 20th.
First, claims of an afterlife have to be supported, not debunked. The responsibility is of the claimant to offer evidence, not the skeptic to prove a negative. In the absence of anything substantial to support an afterlife, the default position is that it doesn't exist. That default would change if the facts warranted it.

The universe itself testifies to the existence of a creator. Laws govern its workings; they operate like clockwork.
Do you own a wristwatch Auto? What if I told you it didn't have a maker...that it just evolved and I found it in the woods and sold it to a jewelery store who sold it to you?

Teleology was dead by the time Darwin came along. The same arguments can be applied to a creator god: if the universe is too complex to not have been designed, who designed the designer? The Mandelbrot analogy also shows how complex patterns emerge from natural systems with no intelligent prompting. The watchmaker analogy has been dealt with conclusively time and time again.

Or what if I told you that the house next door just simply appeared over a few million years, complete with floor coverings, furniture, fridge full of food, lighting, plumbing and heating, pets....no one made it, it just happened all by itself....

If this is an analogy for evolution it fails since houses do not have DNA, do not reproduce and are not subject to natural selective pressures.

The earth itself is seriously more complex than any house.

Yes it is. And that's why your analogies fail.

Do you see how ridiculous your arguments are? You could shuffle all the parts of something as simple as a mouse trap around for sixty thousand years and never have those parts come together in the precise order for them to ever be a mouse trap. :slap:

I take it by your posts you're not familiar with evolution or have read much on irreducible complexity? Please check out TalkOrigins; they have several introductory papers written by biologists, anthropologists, phycisists, astronomers, etc.- you know, people who actually work in the sciences who have tackled the irreducible complexity nonsense head on. Btw, here's a reducible mousetrap to show just how ridiculous Behe's claim is.

How do beings who have never seen, know it is beneficial to produce eyes....or ears if they have never heard sound? How many kinds of eyes do you think there are? Cat's eyes, eagle's eyes, fish eyes? And how many kinds of ears do you think there are? How do creatures as diverse as bats and dolphins develop sonar, independently? These all just popped out of thin air did they?

They don't know it is beneficial. Adaptations are based on environmental influences, sexual selection, etc. There's no intent or decision on the population. Natural selection is a beautiful theory that explains all of your questions neatly, succinctly and perfectly.

Do you know how many times you would have to repeat those ridiculous assumptions attached to evolution for all the myriad living things on this planet? Not to mention the earth's position in relation to the sun....not to mention its water cycles and the fact that trees exhale what we breathe and breathe what we exhale. All accidents of mindless evolution?

About 4.5 billion years...

 

[Nepenthe]

And since I love diagrams, here's that reducible mousetrap!

 

[michel]

"Apparently the standard in this thread is just to make declarations as if they were fact"

That's always the religious standard.

Maybe they are to the individuals who make them.

 

[Autodidact]

Ok Auto, practice what you preach. I too would like you to provide what evidence you can furnish for your own beliefs (or lack of them.)
If you demand evidence....where is your own? Are they not assumptions too, based on faith? Pot calling the kettle black?

My post was a humorous attempt to highlight the fact that you think it's appropriate to make assertions with no foundation. So I made several outrageous assertions with no more foundation than yours. I have exactly as much evidence for my prediction that you are going to turn into an airborne potato as you do for telling us what's going to happen when the world ends any minute. That is, none. In fact, pot calling kettle black is exactly what I was doing. I'm black. Black, black black. Exactly as black as you. Get it? (Sometimes you have to explain things to Christians explicitly, a humorous approach is too subtle.)

The universe itself testifies to the existence of a creator. Laws govern its workings; they operate like clockwork.
Do you own a wristwatch Auto? What if I told you it didn't have a maker...that it just evolved and I found it in the woods and sold it to a jewelery store who sold it to you?

Oh my god that's so original and brilliant!!! I never heard this (bogus discredited) argument before, Bishop Paley!

Now think really hard. You're walking across a heath. A heath, natural, non-man-made. And you see a watch. You notice that the watch is different from the heath; it's nothing like it. You know that the watch, unlike the heath, was designed and created for a purpose by an intelligent being. By the same token, you know the opposite about the heath; it was not designed for any purpose by any intelligent being. That's how you knew the watch was designed, because it stood out from the heath by its different.

Or what if I told you that the house next door just simply appeared over a few million years, complete with floor coverings, furniture, fridge full of food, lighting, plumbing and heating, pets....no one made it, it just happened all by itself....
The earth itself is seriously more complex than any house.

You haven't studied much science, have you?

Do you see how ridiculous your arguments are? You could shuffle all the parts of something as simple as a mouse trap around for sixty thousand years and never have those parts come together in the precise order for them to ever be a mouse trap. :slap:

Yup. Did you have a point?

How do beings who have never seen, know it is beneficial to produce eyes....or ears if they have never heard sound? How many kinds of eyes do you think there are? Cat's eyes, eagle's eyes, fish eyes? And how many kinds of ears do you think there are? How do creatures as diverse as bats and dolphins develop sonar, independently? These all just popped out of thin air did they?

Ever heard of the Theory of Evolution? You might want to look into it, as it explains all of this pretty well.

Do you know how many times you would have to repeat those ridiculous assumptions attached to evolution for all the myriad living things on this planet?

what assumptions?

Not to mention the earth's position in relation to the sun....

Oh, another thing you might want to look into--gravity. It's really cool.

not to mention its water cycles and the fact that trees exhale what we breathe and breathe what we exhale. All accidents of mindless evolution?

No, only the trees, not the water cycles. The water cycles are due to the chemical nature of water as it interacts with heat. Would you like me to explain it?

And I am going to become an atheist?...What shower of rain did you come down in? :biglaugh:Seriously......

It's exactly as valid as your predictions. Right after Jesus taps me on the shoulder, you turn atheist.

 

[Deeje]

Nepenthe and Auto, may I ask an obvious question here?

You are so vehemently anti-God and anti-'anything spiritual'....why are you here?
If this is a "Religious Forum" why not go and rejoice in your unbelief with your fellow heartless, godless, smug and condescending atheist cohorts?

Blind Freddy can see that your intent is simply to ridicule and scorn and rob believers of their hope. You gain some obvious pleasure from this. But we believe that your arguments are as false as you claim ours are. Science is your God, evolution is your 'creed' and you can waffle on about it all you want, it holds no weight with believers, just as ours holds no weight with you.
Beliefs are simply that...beliefs. We've all got 'em and we are all entitled to them. But aren't you just peddling your 'religion' as you accuse us of doing?

The proof of this pudding will be in the eating, then we will see who is worshiping the real deal.
(BTW, right after Jesus taps you on the shoulder, you don't turn into a believer.)

In the meantime, why not go rain on somebody else's parade....?

Deeje

 

[OmarKhayyam]

First your reply above shows just an appalling ignorance. Indeed if a house appeared as you describe - or a living thing or even a dead thing it would disprove ToE immediately. And provide some evidence for your fairy godfather.

But the world is NOT like that. The "house" appears bit by tiny bit over millions of years. And every nail every screw the smallest change is immediately subjected to the most rigorous test imaginable. Life or death - literally. And ONLY those changes that pass that test and continue to pass it remain to be added on to.

As for your loving and caring god the POE has bothered theists for thousands of years. There is still NO satisfactory answer. Unless YOU have an answer for the inconsistent tirade?

Or an answer for Epicurus?

Got one? We are all waiting . . . waiting . . . waiting . . . .

And while you are working on that what evidence do you have that any alleged designer has any special interest in US. Why are WE the object of its affection? Look up the nite sky. There are billions of planets out there. Billions more have been out there and are now gone. Ours in time will vanish also.

Yet this entire vast spectacle was created for our benefit. All those suns and planets all those billions and billions of years - just for US!

The word "arrogance" does not suffice to describe such an attitude.

 

[Autodidact]

Nepenthe and Auto, may I ask an obvious question here?

You are so vehemently anti-God and anti-'anything spiritual'....why are you here?
If this is a "Religious Forum" why not go and rejoice in your unbelief with your fellow heartless, godless, smug and condescending atheist cohorts?

There's another question I've never been asked before from another forum member who apparently has no idea what this forum is for or about. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the forum goals and rules before embarrassing yourself with questions like this. You might also do a search and see how many times this question has been asked and answered here. Finally, before assuming you know better than we what the forum is all about, maybe a brief glance at the frubal count will help.

Blind Freddy can see that your intent is simply to ridicule and scorn and rob believers of their hope.

My intent is to debate religion, the purpose of this forum. What's yours?

You gain some obvious pleasure from this.

I find it interesting.

But we believe that your arguments are as false as you claim ours are.

Of course, that's what we're here for, to air all views--including ours.

Science is your God, evolution is your 'creed' and you can waffle on about it all you want, it holds no weight with believers, just as ours holds no weight with you.

Baloney. You obviously know nothing about it. Try this: define God.

Beliefs are simply that...beliefs. We've all got 'em and we are all entitled to them. But aren't you just peddling your 'religion' as you accuse us of doing?

NO, only to mock you. I don't go around making unsupported assertions except as a device to highlight how ridiculous it is to do so.

The proof of this pudding will be in the eating, then we will see who is worshiping the real deal.

Yup. And until then, how about if you stop telling us things that you know no more about than we do, O.K.?

(BTW, right after Jesus taps you on the shoulder, you don't turn into a believer.)

In the meantime, why not go rain on somebody else's parade....?

If you don't like it, choose another forum to hang out in. In this one, we all get to participate. Or, if you can't stand the heat, use the ignore function.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Nepenthe and Auto, may I ask an obvious question here?

You are so vehemently anti-God and anti-'anything spiritual'....why are you here?
If this is a "Religious Forum" why not go and rejoice in your unbelief with your fellow heartless, godless, smug and condescending atheist cohorts?

Blind Freddy can see that your intent is simply to ridicule and scorn and rob believers of their hope. You gain some obvious pleasure from this. But we believe that your arguments are as false as you claim ours are. Science is your God, evolution is your 'creed' and you can waffle on about it all you want, it holds no weight with believers, just as ours holds no weight with you.
Beliefs are simply that...beliefs. We've all got 'em and we are all entitled to them. But aren't you just peddling your 'religion' as you accuse us of doing?

The proof of this pudding will be in the eating, then we will see who is worshiping the real deal.
(BTW, right after Jesus taps you on the shoulder, you don't turn into a believer.)

In the meantime, why not go rain on somebody else's parade....?

Deeje

Matthew 7 FAIL

I've failed to keep track of how many times this 'obvious' question has been asked. The answer will always remain the same: Atheists are just as welcome to discuss and debate their religious views as theists are. Do you find anything wrong with including people with beliefs that differ from yours into a debate? After all, where's the debate without the opposing party? We're all here to learn, we're all here to discuss our own ideas and we're all here because we're interested in religious topics, atheists (And especially Auto, from what i've read of her posts) included.

Are you interested in other people's religious beliefs, Deeje? Or are they unimportant because they are wrong?

GhK.

 

[Willamena]

It depends on what you identify yourself with.

I agree: the probable outcome depends on which picture we paint.

 

[Willamena]

"Apparently the standard in this thread is just to make declarations as if they were fact"

That's always the religious standard.

(...he declared, as if it were fact.)

 

[Deeje]

To all the godless.....please excuse my appalling ignorance. I am humbled by the weight of your correction. :-( (where are the smileys when you need them?)

I thought I already acknowledged everyone's right to their opinion. It's you guys who always seem to want to hammer everyone else's beliefs into the ground. You won't be happy till everyone is as godless and miserable as you are. Is there a reason for this? Misery loves company perhaps. You always seem to be so mean spirited in your posting; the saddest beings on the planet....you have no hope and you have nothing to look forward to except more of the same and an everlasting death. What person in their right mind would want to join you? What joy you are spreading!

If you all feel that you are just too intelligent for belief in God, and that your theories are so 'provable', why can't you just be happy to air them? Why is it that you need to berate others with such complete condescension and parade your views like they are the only valid ones? That is a pretty big pedestal you have placed yourselves on.....should we just be standing at the base looking up admiringly?

Just remember, it's a long way to fall.....if you are dead wrong.

 

[Storm]

Dear God, do you have any idea how ignorant and pretentious you sound?

 

[Bick]

Quote from Michel:
God created adam and eve as spirits. Then clothed them with bodies made of atoms. He then breathed a soul into them. When we die our bodies returns to atoms in the ground. Our spirit leaves the body with the breath of life which is in the soul. When we have no body we are naked. Hence at the return of jesus he will give us new bodies. When adam and eve sinned they realised they were naked. Naked as in had no natural clothes on. In the natural world you are naked when you dont have clothes on, in the spiritual world you are naked if you have no body. Hence the need to give us bodies at the resurrection.

MY COMMENTS: I agree with what you quoted from Genesis, but not that Adam and Eve were created as spirits. From what Scripture do you get that?

Adam was formed from the dust of the ground....there is a prepared body....then the Lord God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life....OK, he starts breathing....he has all his senses: his sight, hearing, feeling, tasting, thinking, etc....and can experience life for he is a living soul.

 

[Bick]

When we die we cease to exist (except in God's mind). Death is the opposite of life. The cure for death is resurrection.

In death there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise, no wisdom etc.
See: Psa.6:5; 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Eccl.9:5; Isa. 38:18.

 

[Nepenthe]

Nepenthe and Auto, may I ask an obvious question here? You are so vehemently anti-God and anti-'anything spiritual'....why are you here?

Parole. Beats collecting trash on the freeway.
I'm pro-intellect and pro-evidence; I'm opposed to ignorance. Forums- well, some forums- offer challenging ideas that I may not be exposed to in my immediate circles so it's interesting to constantly challenge my beliefs.

If this is a "Religious Forum" why not go and rejoice in your unbelief with your fellow heartless, godless, smug and condescending atheist cohorts?

Because they're all too busy killing kittens and pillaging.

Blind Freddy can see that your intent is simply to ridicule and scorn and rob believers of their hope. You gain some obvious pleasure from this. But we believe that your arguments are as false as you claim ours are. Science is your God, evolution is your 'creed' and you can waffle on about it all you want, it holds no weight with believers, just as ours holds no weight with you.

Wow, I've never heard this type of condescending nonsense before!

Beliefs are simply that...beliefs. We've all got 'em and we are all entitled to them. But aren't you just peddling your 'religion' as you accuse us of doing?

Short answer "no". Long answer "not even close".

The proof of this pudding will be in the eating, then we will see who is worshiping the real deal.
(BTW, right after Jesus taps you on the shoulder, you don't turn into a believer.)

Pudding. Jesus. Ok.

In the meantime, why not go rain on somebody else's parade....?

I love the rain!

To all the godless.....please excuse my appalling ignorance. I am humbled by the weight of your correction. :-( (where are the smileys when you need them?)
I thought I already acknowledged everyone's right to their opinion. It's you guys who always seem to want to hammer everyone else's beliefs into the ground. You won't be happy till everyone is as godless and miserable as you are. Is there a reason for this? Misery loves company perhaps. You always seem to be so mean spirited in your posting; the saddest beings on the planet....you have no hope and you have nothing to look forward to except more of the same and an everlasting death. What person in their right mind would want to join you? What joy you are spreading!

The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.
George Bernard Shaw

If you all feel that you are just too intelligent for belief in God, and that your theories are so 'provable', why can't you just be happy to air them? Why is it that you need to berate others with such complete condescension and parade your views like they are the only valid ones? That is a pretty big pedestal you have placed yourselves on.....should we just be standing at the base looking up admiringly?

Irony!

Just remember, it's a long way to fall.....if you are dead wrong.

I'll take the chance. I value my ability to explore and experience life without blinders. It can be scary at times, but it's always exhilirating and fascinating.

 

[Autodidact]

To all the godless.....please excuse my appalling ignorance. I am humbled by the weight of your correction. :-( (where are the smileys when you need them?)

Apology accepted.

I thought I already acknowledged everyone's right to their opinion.

If so, I missed it.

It's you guys who always seem to want to hammer everyone else's beliefs into the ground.

You have your right to express your opinion, and I have my right to express my disagreement with it. You only seem to have a problem with the latter.

You won't be happy till everyone is as godless and miserable as you are.

Actually everyone's godless, because there is no God. (bada bing.) What makes you think I'm miserable? I'm one of the least miserable people I know. Anyway, I'm not trying to convert anyone (unlike Christians.) Mostly I just question your reasoning and ask to be let alone.

Is there a reason for this?

Obviously, I think I'm right, and would like everyone to enjoy the delight of being right with me.

Misery loves company perhaps.

I wouldn't know. Why do you proslytize so much?

You always seem to be so mean spirited in your posting; the saddest beings on the planet....

Same at ya.

you have no hope and you have nothing to look forward to except more of the same and an everlasting death.

I suggest that you ask rather than tell. I live of life filled with joy, fulfilliment and service. You?

What person in their right mind would want to join you?

Anyone who enjoys being right.

What joy you are spreading!

Thank you. Mind you, this is from someone who's gleefully predicting the end of the world in blood and fire.

You seem to think atheism is joyless for some reason. Maybe you don't know any atheists? Now here's joyless for you:

Full of God--and hate.

If you all feel that you are just too intelligent for belief in God, and that your theories are so 'provable', why can't you just be happy to air them?

That's just what I'm doing.

Why is it that you need to berate others with such complete condescension and parade your views like they are the only valid ones?

I only condescend to people who are so arrogant they think their pronouncements should be treated as fact. If you can't support your assertion, don't make it. If you make unsupported assertions, don't whine when they get mocked. Here's a suggestion: instead of stating your (rather odd) beliefs as though they were fact, just put "I believe" in front of them. You'll do wonders for your credibility.

That is a pretty big pedestal you have placed yourselves on.....should we just be standing at the base looking up admiringly?

If you think it's warranted, I won't stop you.

Just remember, it's a long way to fall.....if you are dead wrong.

More joy from Deeje. Keep on spreading that joy, Deeje!

 

[Jesus Smasher]

I don't know what will happen when I die, you don't know what will happen when you die. There is no way to know what will happen when anyone dies, because the only person that could tell us would be one that was living.

 

[Nepenthe]

Full of God--and hate.

i know it's an easy shot but Phelps' resemblance to the evil preacher from Poltergeist 3 still amuses me.