What happens to us when we die?

[Thief]

Thief here...Hey Omar...
Part of debating is taking a look at the motivation of your opponent.

So...everyone does understand....yes we do...that you don't believe in the 'here after'.
So....why are you participating in a discussion about the 'here after'?

Obviously, you would contend the 'end' really is the 'end'.
But of course believing in the 'here after' requires some kind of faith....
and faith by definition has no evidence to support it.

So why do you ask for evidence....why do you bother 'nay' saying ...in the face of a discussion that doesn't lean toward such things?

 

[OmarKhayyam]

If you will keep your myth out of the public square I will be more than happy to have you believe any nonsense you wish. Have at it. Nobody cares; certainly not me.

But keep thy religion to thyself.

What is s-o-o-o-o hard about that?

btw, why isn't the Aurelius position an answer to the thread title?

 

[Thief]

Thief here...so here we are at Religious Forums, and I'm supposed to keep my religion to myself.
We are 'public' here. It would be difficult to respond to the debate and not be public about it.

If you're concerned about public buildings and the like...why not take the time you spend here, and write your congressman instead?

It seems unlikely you will convince anyone to give up faith.
There's too much hope going around for that to happen.

But then you don't have any hope....do you?

 

[Deeje]

.......your fellow believers are not content with that. They are busy as we speak working to enact laws and commit acts that will require me to act as if I believed their myth. ......If you will keep your myth out of the public square I will be more than happy to allow you to believe any nonsense you wish. Have at it. Nobody cares; certainly not me. But keep thy religion to thyself.
...Why tell me what books I may read or what moves I may see? Why try to control who I may invite into my bedroom under what terms and what we may do there? Why do you insist on teaching your mythology in public schools? Why am I required to pay for having the symbols of your religion plastered on public buildings?

If I am not mistaken Omar, there are more moves afoot to ban religion than there are to promote it. I agree with you, it is the most divisive element on the planet; that's why God is going to get rid of it and use the political elements to do it. (It's all in Revelation)...stay tuned. :cover:
If you think our beliefs are "nonsense" and that you don't care about them, you are going to an awful lot of trouble to tell us how much you "don't care."

I can't see God zapping you with a big cattle prod controlling what you do...maybe if he did you would have more respect. You can pretty much do as you please....we are all going to be caught in the act of being ourselves. Don't care? Maybe you should.

Get OUT of my life and I will more than happy to have nothing to do with yours.:shoutBut this is not enough. They create this invisible sugar daddy who watches over them like a mother hen. They are apparently afraid to live their lives on their own. They need this crutch to “comfort” them. They need this promise of an eternal afterlife spent worshiping this “god” thing. Like a creature capable of running the universe would give a R*A* about what they think.

If this is a religious forum, perhaps it is you who need to leave and have nothing to do with US if you find our beliefs so offensive. :run:
Maybe it's only hard, cynical people that "the invisible sugar daddy" doesn't care for. There appears to be little that is sweet about your outlook on life or your prospects for the future. Your heart appears hard and calloused because of what you have observed in 'religion'; but it seems to me that you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
I am sorry for you but I completely understand your cynicism if it is based on fake Christianity or religion that does not have the Creator as its author. The true God does not burn people in hell, nor does he make outrageous demands upon anyone. He has rules, but they are not unreasonable. Nothing in nature is out of balance....neither is his expectation of human behavior. Where would the human race be if there was no law?

Why is it that the religious among us can’t see this life as a truly wondrous gift? IF there is/was a designer we have been given a life to do with pretty much as we choose. No rewards promised no punishments threatened. And we have intelligence, if we are willing to use it, which allows us to change our environment more to our liking. We can get out of our lives as much – or as little – as WE chose.

This is an odd statement for a "godless heathen" Omar. What gift has no giver? And what giver of any gift would not be offended if it was used for immoral or evil purposes? If you gave someone something precious and valuable and they threw it in the mud and trampled on till it didn't resemble the original at all, would you not be entitled to retrieve it, restore it and then give it to someone who would cherish it as you do?

False worship abounds on this earth....none of these are backed by the Creator.
Don't judge the Maker of all things by what his rebellious children do or have done.:no:
The one who made all things did not go to all this trouble for nothing. He has plans for it. Whether we are included in those plans is really up to us.

Deeje

 

[Nepenthe]

This I believe.

There is a world external to me that exists independent of me and independent of my perception of it. It was here before me and will be long after I am gone.
My senses allow me to experience this external world.
Reason is valid tool in understanding this world.
My existence is purely physical. The universe is purely physical. Gods are human inventions.
My life has such meaning as I say it does – no more no less.

I thought this summed up your response to the OP perfectly. Took the words right outta my head. :clap
Most of the non-Omar' responses are predictable drivel, but this caught my eye:

So...everyone does understand....yes we do...that you don't believe in the 'here after'.
So....why are you participating in a discussion about the 'here after'?

Obviously, you would contend the 'end' really is the 'end'.
But of course believing in the 'here after' requires some kind of faith....
and faith by definition has no evidence to support it.

So why do you ask for evidence....why do you bother 'nay' saying ...in the face of a discussion that doesn't lean toward such things?

Well, for myself I participate in these discussions despite my skepticism towards an afterlife because it's interesting from an anthropological position. Why do people believe despite the lack of evidence? What social, historical and evolutionary aspects have contributed to this belief? It's fascinating in the same way I discuss theism despite my atheism, psychic phenomenon despite the absence of evidence, and so on.

I'm mostly fascinated by how often the reponse falls back on faith in light of the utter failure to substantiate evidence of what they have faith in.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...here's my cause to participate.

I've been told so many scenarios by so many believers, with so much variation, and extreme heart felt earnest...
Then I found this web site.

And I suspect...strongly so....it's the same for the rest of the participants.
There are of course, several members who will stick to their belief system...
no matter what.
That's fine.
But resolve between what you and someone else believes...comes from a continual surrender to something else.

As for what happens after we die....
If you want to keep company with the angels...you have to say as They would say, and do as They would do.
This discussion should be moving in that direction.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

I've been told so many scenarios by so many believers, with so much variation, and extreme heart felt earnest...

And doesn't that lack of consensus tell you something about the matter being investigated? Like it is so amorphous and vague or simply non existent that it cannot be understood correctly.

"If you want to keep company with the angels...you have to say as They would say, and do as They would do."

You must 1st demonstrate that "angels" exist before you make any statements about what they say or do.

So, what evidence for "angels" do you have?

 

[Deeje]

And doesn't that lack of consensus tell you something about the matter being investigated? Like it is so amorphous and vague or simply non existent that it cannot be understood correctly.

You must 1st demonstrate that "angels" exist before you make any statements about what they say or do.

So, what evidence for "angels" do you have?

That lack of consensus you speak of is something duly noted by the Creator as well Omar. Do you think he is blind AND stupid? This situation was foretold in the Bible....it is to be expected. 'Wheat' and 'weeds' were to 'grow together' until the 'harvest time'. Guess what? It's harvest time now.
Your introduction to angels will not be the one you desire. They are described as the 'reapers', dispatched to collect the 'weeds' and destroy them.

Cleaning up this planet and getting rid of the elements that are ruining it, is what Armageddon is all about. Only those who have respect for the Creator and his creation will be permitted to keep the gift of life.

If you had a beautiful place that you took the time and effort to built with your own hands and you allowed tenants in who ended up being hell bent on destroying it and each other, would you not evict them, repair the damage and be very careful whom you allowed to live there in future?
The Creator is actually in control of the situation even though the majority of humans may not realize it. He is fully aware of what needs to happen and whom he will allow to enjoy his handy work in the future.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Cleaning up this planet and getting rid of the elements that are ruining it, is what Armageddon is all about. Only those who have respect for the Creator and his creation will be permitted to keep the gift of life.

I wish I could frame that and keep it handy when all these liberal loving modern Christians say theirs is a peaceful loving forgiving and all-embracing faith.

Yes, I know DJ you have me roasted at dawn tomorrow if you could. Your fellow believers have done so every time they have had the chance.

Fortunately we may have learned just how hateful and anti-human this mythology is. And will see to it remains w/o political power.

 

[Thief]

Thief here....
I for one will not be expecting an earthly existence.
But let's run that idea a little longer.

God gave Man dominion. Therefore it is not God that allows all the pain and misery. Man allows it.
Sooner or later that missing consensus will take hold. Then most the difficulty will be alleviated.
Until then debates such as this one, will continue, and piece by piece....
peace will be obtained.

But I say an earthly existence was never intended to be eternal.
The body exists as a tool to generate the various intellect.
So the differences we hold...are actually desirable.
Too bad there are extremists, who are willing to push the discussion beyond peace.

 

[Deeje]

I wish I could frame that and keep it handy when all these liberal loving modern Christians say theirs is a peaceful loving forgiving and all-embracing faith.

Yes, I know DJ you have me roasted at dawn tomorrow if you could. Your fellow believers have done so every time they have had the chance.

Fortunately we may have learned just how hateful and anti-human this mythology is. And will see to it remains w/o political power.

Omar, why do you think that most cultures have a death penalty for serious crime? Is it not so that the rest will not have to fear them and what they may do in the future? Isn' t it to make sure that they are not in a position to commit their crime again? Is it not to fulfill the law of justice?

Those who disown the Creator (for whatever reason) will be disowned by him. Is that not fair? Why should godless individuals be allowed to enjoy the Creators handywork whilst rubbishing his existence and the beliefs of his children. Put yourself in his position...what would you do? Peace can never be achieved if dissenting individuals are allowed to co exist with believers. There would always be friction, robbing us all of a peaceful existence. Look at the present state of the world....do you just want more of the same? I don't!! Neither does the Creator.
God never intended that this be the case. His first purpose was to have obedient humans co exist peacefully together as his children.....his earthly family. This was to complement his spiritual family. But an abuse of free will threw a spanner in the works. It has taken a long time for things to be worked out to a successful conclusion...but successful it will be...with you or without you.

Rather than have you "roasted" Omar, I, like Christ, would like to have you as my brother. Our destiny is not cast in concrete, we all have choices. Those choices have consequences that define our future.

The Creator IS all wise and loving; he does not withhold anything from those who defy him. You still get the sun, rain, food, water etc. but you are not one bit grateful to the one who provided them.
As to his being forgiving.....that is conditional (as it should be) To forgive someone who is unrepentant is foolish. They will simply take advantage of your forgiving nature and walk all over you. No one walks over God!

Have you always been this cynical Omar? Your heart is bitter and you seem to feel the need to spread your gloom over the rest of us....why? :sad:

Deeje

 

[cottage]

Deege: Those who disown the Creator (for whatever reason) will be disowned by him. Is that not fair? Why should godless individuals be allowed to enjoy the Creators handywork whilst rubbishing his existence and the beliefs of his children. Put yourself in his position...what would you do? Peace can never be achieved if dissenting individuals are allowed to co exist with believers. There would always be friction, robbing us all of a peaceful existence. Look at the present state of the world....do you just want more of the same? I don't!! Neither does the Creator.
God never intended that this be the case. His first purpose was to have obedient humans co exist peacefully together as his children.....his earthly family. This was to complement his spiritual family. But an abuse of free will threw a spanner in the works. It has taken a long time for things to be worked out to a successful conclusion...but successful it will be...with you or without you.

Reading the above I believe I have the right to say that I find it a little disturbing that there are people who actually think in those terms. We are being told of an ego-ridden, tyrannical deity who will not tolerate dissent or a lack of recognition and expects to his creation to be ‘obedient’; and then we are told how this supposed, almighty creator of existence itself was wrong-footed and challenged by his own creation! Now surely, surely whatever a person’s faith or religion the beliefs must make sense. As a sceptic, I can be wrong in my conclusions; but, if there is a Creator, it/he will not be the one described in this post. After all, you cannot believe what cannot be believed.

 

[Deeje]

Deege: Those who disown the Creator (for whatever reason) will be disowned by him. Is that not fair? Why should godless individuals be allowed to enjoy the Creators handywork whilst rubbishing his existence and the beliefs of his children. Put yourself in his position...what would you do? Peace can never be achieved if dissenting individuals are allowed to co exist with believers. There would always be friction, robbing us all of a peaceful existence. Look at the present state of the world....do you just want more of the same? I don't!! Neither does the Creator.
God never intended that this be the case. His first purpose was to have obedient humans co exist peacefully together as his children.....his earthly family. This was to complement his spiritual family. But an abuse of free will threw a spanner in the works. It has taken a long time for things to be worked out to a successful conclusion...but successful it will be...with you or without you.

Reading the above I believe I have the right to say that I find it a little disturbing that there are people who actually think in those terms. We are being told of an ego-ridden, tyrannical deity who will not tolerate dissent or a lack of recognition and expects to his creation to be ‘obedient’; and then we are told how this supposed, almighty creator of existence itself was wrong-footed and challenged by his own creation! Now surely, surely whatever a person’s faith or religion the beliefs must make sense. As a sceptic, I can be wrong in my conclusions; but, if there is a Creator, it/he will not be the one described in this post. After all, you cannot believe what cannot be believed.

Cottage, you have a right to say and do whatever you please. As a skeptic I doubt anyone could convince you of anything. The proof you need that you are "wrong in your conclusions" will come too late unfortunately. The victims of the global flood probably wanted 'proof' that Noah's warnings were not mindless drivel as well. By the time the water pooled around their feet, they believed!

It really doesn't matter what people think, you see God has a purpose in connection with this earth; it is his to do with as he sees fit. He doesn't need your approval or consent to accomplish his own will. It will be brought to its conclusion, with you or without you. If you do not understand the issues that were raised in Eden then you can never understand why God has to do things the way he has. If you feel your superior intellect would be offended if you allowed yourself to investigate in depth, then there is little I can say.

Should the 'clay' bad-mouth the 'potter', calling him "an ego-ridden, tyrannical deity who will not tolerate dissent or a lack of recognition and expects to his creation to be ‘obedient’"?

God does not reveal himself to self-centered individuals, he is looking for the humble ones who look to their Creator for wisdom; who want to co-exist peacefully with their fellows, not elevating themselves above each other or even above the Creator himself.
He has revealed his intentions in his Word. He doesn't need your approval for believing in that either.

So your skepticism will not serve you well unfortunately. Like him or not, you will answer to him...."God is not one to be mocked". :sad:

Deeje

 

[cottage]

Deege: Cottage, you have a right to say and do whatever you please. As a skeptic I doubt anyone could convince you of anything. The proof you need that you are "wrong in your conclusions" will come too late unfortunately. The victims of the global flood probably wanted 'proof' that Noah's warnings were not mindless drivel as well. By the time the water pooled around their feet, they believed!

It really doesn't matter what people think, you see God has a purpose in connection with this earth; it is his to do with as he sees fit. He doesn't need your approval or consent to accomplish his own will. It will be brought to its conclusion, with you or without you. If you do not understand the issues that were raised in Eden then you can never understand why God has to do things the way he has. If you feel your superior intellect would be offended if you allowed yourself to investigate in depth, then there is little I can say.

Should the 'clay' bad-mouth the 'potter', calling him "an ego-ridden, tyrannical deity who will not tolerate dissent or a lack of recognition and expects to his creation to be ‘obedient’"?

God does not reveal himself to self-centered individuals, he is looking for the humble ones who look to their Creator for wisdom; who want to co-exist peacefully with their fellows, not elevating themselves above each other or even above the Creator himself.
He has revealed his intentions in his Word. He doesn't need your approval for believing in that either.

So your skepticism will not serve you well unfortunately. Like him or not, you will answer to him...."God is not one to be mocked".


My disagreement with you doesn’t concern belief or non-belief in the existence a Creator; it concerns the incoherent reasoning, self-contradictory explanations and the presuming to speak for God. Nothing you’ve written is in any sense true: it is simply a belief. However, even speculative beliefs have to make sense. Consider some of the things you’ve said: ‘God never intended this to be the case’, and ‘…an abuse of free will threw a spanner in the works’, also: ‘It has taken a long time for things to be worked out to a successful conclusion’. You are presuming to describe the omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, infinite, transcendent, immanent and immutable Creator of all existence…and yet you (unintentionally) attribute failure and a lack of achievement to this deity! And I can tell you that God doesn’t ‘have to do things the way he has’. If there is a God he doesn’t have to do anything!
In addition to this you imply that unbelievers are incapable of co-existing peaceably with their fellows, which is arrant nonsense. As a matter of fact history has shown us plenty of examples where God believers have inflicted unspeakable atrocities upon their fellow humans. And I invite to give me an example of ‘self-centred individuals’, and then by return I will show how this self-centredness also extends to theists. And you might also want to give an explanation of how ‘investigating in depth’ leads to proof that a dogmatically held doctrine is true? Experience teaches us that there is no benevolent and merciful God, and although your threats and proselytising are entirely in keeping with that view, such postings bring religious belief into disrepute.

 

[idea]

Laws of conservation - you cannot make something out of nothing, nor can you make something into nothing. Everythiong that now is has always been, and always will be - changing from one state to another, but eternal.

Death is a transformation for those who want to be transformed.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians15:51 - 58)


Life = something that grows - plant vs. rock, plants grow/change. Some people learn to progress/change/live. Others decay/stagnate/die.... Eternal life is possible for those who choose to live.

 

[idea]

Deege: Those who disown the Creator (for whatever reason) will be disowned by him.

the "creator"...hmmmm..... the one who transforms/organizes/refines is a better descript... (He organized what eternally exists - did not create out of nothing...)

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/5_creator.html
[SIZE=+1]Child Root (Branches of the Tree)[/SIZE]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Meaning: To build a nest.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]


8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
(Old Testament | Isaiah64:8)

The potter did not make the clay - He transforms it.

Those who disown the one who transforms will not be transformed...
God is cleaning up a mess He did not make. May we be thankful that He has selflessly offered to bring us up out of the primordial chaos from whence we came.

 

[Sundree]

This is what I dont understand, and help me please to understand, that is all I have ever asked for in the beginning. I can pretend I am a child learning the ways of the earth. As I look at the natural habitats of all things, from ants making anthills, to wolf packs, to trees rustling from the wind, all the way to human beings who have more than just instinct, we have the ability to reason. How did it all come to be? How does the caterpillar know how to become a butterfly? Something gave life. Something separated us from animals to have reason. What was it? Since this happened SO long ago, nobody knows for sure, but instead of living a life that is dreary from fear people cling on to some form of faith.

As a mother I can understand a little bit better on instincts, and also what it truly means to have unconditional love. In this earthly world, I gave life to my child. That young child has mocked me, has spit in my face, has told me he hates me when not getting his way, has sworn me off, has made me very sad at times. Would I ever turn him away? NEVER. I don't know what your relationship is like with your mother, but I do know that if it is anything like your own relationship with God, I can understand it. It is unconditional for me because the days when my son turns to me and beams a smile, says "I love you Mom", hugs me warmly, makes me gifts and kisses my cheek, I am beside myself with joy. That joy is the same joy many people on this earth look forward to with their spiritual creator. Why dont you want that? Why are you denying yourself that love, affection and wondrous joy? Because you insist he/she/it doesnt exist? Why are you doing that to yourself. You have the choice to believe whatever you want to, so why pick death? Wouldnt you rather be safe than sorry?

I was at a place where I didnt know which faith to believe in because I didnt want to be wrong. I feared the unknown. I feared not being with the right faith. However that fear still told me that I dont want to give up and simply not believe in anything simply because there is no factual, physical hard evidence in my hand to make me go, "Ahhh this is it! This is the correct way it was and this is now what I believe!" So what I found is that it doesnt matter which way you get there, buddism, hinduism, judaism, christianity, etc...as long as you do believe in one thing...the light, the good, the love, the positive energy, the right vs. the wrong. With that, you can't go wrong. All the in-between doesn't matter.

As an atheist, do you try to seek out further understanding of the spiritual world? Or have you simply given up because of your lack of evidence? If you truly look around, your evidence is EVERYWHERE! Try to see yourself in different places, try to see your behaviors in different animals, insects for example are amazing to understand, look up at the stars, and understand how they move. Look at the seasons changing. How can any of it be explained? It has been documented that upon a human being's last breath, at the exact moment of their bodily "death", they actually lose an ounce or so of weight as their spirit lifts out of their bodies. It has been documented by witnesses of that spirit lifting out of the body. Where do you think it goes?

If you put your mind in an open place to accept and understand, you may actually find miracles do happen. I have had so many experiences that simply cannot be explained. I have had the priviledge to read certain minds when I allow myself to. I have had the gift of seeing spiritual gatherings by allowing myself to let go of the fear. I have seen healings that cannot be explained. I have had dreams that become deja vu, that turn into reality, because I allow my mind to speak with God. If you tried, maybe you could too. The power is within yourself, but as you have made your choice as an atheist, you have slammed that opportunistic door closed. It is only unfortunate for you my friend. That is a fact. And that isnt even going down the path of how you personally need to get to those places via whatever alter, religion, book, ceremony, or way of life you choose.

Whatever happens to you atheists, I always wish you the best.

 

[Alva]

I always thought since I was a kid that this world was to vastly huge to be experienced in just one life time... it had to be more... it just seemed logical. I still think it does =)

 

[idea]

In this earthly world, I gave life to my child.

You created a body for a spirit.... your child's life is their own.


Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The soul that rises with us, our life's star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar. Not in entire forgetfulness, And not in utter nakedness, But trailing clouds of glory, do we come From God, who is our home: Heaven lies about us in our infancy.”
William Wordsworth

beautiful sentiments though. Welcome to RF!

 

[Sundree]

You created a body for a spirit.... your child's life is their own.


beautiful sentiments though. Welcome to RF!

Thank you for the welcome

I see your point, however that is your opinion, another way to look at it and it's a good one. What I meant is that in some ways I could have opted not to have the child, so just as my mother gave me life, I gave my child the option to live. These days many women have the choice not to, I dont believe in that though. (That is another topic of it's own).