Based on the Bible is there anyone who can show me that man has an immortal soul that goes to either Heaven or Hell when we die? Was Lazarus in Heaven before being resurrected? Did Moses & Abraham and other faithful men before who lived before Jesus Christ go to Heaven when they died?
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What happens when we die?
- Thread starter bobuk25
- Start date
bobuk25 said:
From:-http://godkind.org/soul.html...
Heaven, Hell, "Immortal" Soul, and the Resurrection!
The subject of the immortal soul and going to heaven or hell at death is probable the most commonly believed concept (or its equivalent) which runs throughout ALL religions. However, you may be in for a shock when you see what the Bible really has to say about going to heaven or hell, and the subject of life and death.
The first thing you need to realize is that nowhere in all the Bible does it state that mankind goes to heaven at death. Remember that you have to take all references related to the subject and piece it together. Also be sure to read each scripture in context with the scriptures above and below the verse in question. The only way to fully understand this topic is to find out what the Bible says, or doesn't say, about hell, and the immortal soul, and where Christ will be at the resurrection.
(you will need to navigate to the site for the further corroboration and texts that appear in the bible)
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
bobuk25 said:
No.
The doctrine of the immortal soul is Platonic and not in the Bible.
Thanks Michel, I agree with nearly if not ALL of that, its ashame that so many churches teach the immortality of the soul, the existence of a fiery hell etc. I've just been to a funeral this afternoon and the Priest was saying that the deceased is now with God & the angels in Heaven, many other clergymen give comfort by claiming God has chosen them to be with him, but these ideas only turn people away from God. Our hope really is to a resurrection here on earth? Can I ask you what is your view on the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel & The Revalation to John, perhaps start with the immense image Daniel spoke of in Daniel Chap 2, I'm sure you're probably busy, but when you get a chance I'd appreciate hearing your views.
rocka21
Brother Rock
<A href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=8&version=50&c color=#0000ff>2 Corinthians 5:8</FONT></STRONG></A><BR>We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be <B>absent</B> <B>from</B> the <B>body</B> and to be present with the Lord.<BR></P><P> </P><P>i don't know about you, but when i am absent form my body i will be present with the Lord, then at the" P forever.< Christ with reagin and body Glorified my given be will I first, rise CHRIST IN dead the church, of rapture?>
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
i don't know about you, but when i am absent from my body, i will be present with the lord. then, at the " rapture" of the chruch ( catching away), the dead in Christ shall rise first. There I will be given my glorified body and reagin with Christ forever.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
i don't know about you, but when i am absent from my body, i will be present with the lord. then, at the " rapture" of the chruch ( catching away), the dead in Christ shall rise first. There I will be given my glorified body and reagin with Christ forever.
michel, I believe, as some others, that when we die we cease to exist, except in God's mind. He knows every detail about us and we will be resurrected just as He wants us.
Starting with Adam, the Lord God said, "...you are dust and to dust shall you return,"
See also, Job 10:9; Psa, 90:3 and others. NOTE: He said "you", not "your body."
Many times the scriptures tell us that in death, the grave (Sheol), there is no remembrance, no knowledge, no praise.
Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa. 30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise Thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa. 88:10-12 "Will Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? ....Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Eccl. 8:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."
Isa. 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise Thee; death cannot celebrate thee."
Dead believers are not in heaven. John, writing after the Lord's ascension, says only Christ is in heaven: John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." AV
And further, Peter preaching on the Day of Pentecost about the prophet, David, in Acts 2:34, says, "For David is not ascended into heaven."
It's true, that some NT verses are used to solidify the view that believers will go immediately to be with the Lord upon death. But, IMO, a careful reading of each context, with the literal meanings, will clarify the claims.
Let's look at 2 Cor. 5:8, quoted by rocka21.
First, some background is needed. This is Paul's second letter to the Corinthians. In his first letter he revealed to them many trues, including the Mystery of our being caught away to meet Christ in the air. Why was this a secret? Because, in all of history, everyone died, if they lived long enough, and then they would be resurrected.
But the secret Paul was given was, that when this "rapture" takes place, there will be living believers, members of Christ's body, who will be changed, to put on immortality; and meet the resurrected "dead in Christ" in the air to be with the Lord.
This is what I feel was Paul's greatest hope, for he wrote like this event could happen soon, at least that was his longings.
Starting at 2 Cor. 5:1: Paul likens our earthly body as a tent, while our heavenly one, he likens as a building. Using more metaphors, in verse 2, he likens our body as clothing, earnestly desirng to put on our heavenly clothing. And in verse 3, we read in the AV, "If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked." Obviously, "to be found naked," means to be dead. We have our earthly body (clothing), and we long for our heavenly body (clothing), so if we are "naked", then we have no body, and so would be dead.
And Paul again in verse 4, tells of his groaning, his longing, not to be unclothed (to die), but to be changed without dying, as he wrote of in his first letter.
He continues on to verse 8, writing of his desire to be present with the Lord: "We are of good courage, and would RATHER be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (Capitals mine for emphasis).
IF, the Lord had come in his time, then Paul would have "put on" heavenly clothing, i.e., a new, spiritual body, as described in 1 Cor. But, since he and many other saints in the church/body of Christ are "asleep", I think it is fair and gracious of the Lord God, that all who make up the body of Christ will be resurrected and those alive changed, and both together meet the Lord in the air at the same time. There are none who are "enjoying the blessings of heaven" ahead of us.
More later, Bick
Starting with Adam, the Lord God said, "...you are dust and to dust shall you return,"
See also, Job 10:9; Psa, 90:3 and others. NOTE: He said "you", not "your body."
Many times the scriptures tell us that in death, the grave (Sheol), there is no remembrance, no knowledge, no praise.
Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa. 30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise Thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa. 88:10-12 "Will Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? ....Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Eccl. 8:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."
Isa. 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise Thee; death cannot celebrate thee."
Dead believers are not in heaven. John, writing after the Lord's ascension, says only Christ is in heaven: John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." AV
And further, Peter preaching on the Day of Pentecost about the prophet, David, in Acts 2:34, says, "For David is not ascended into heaven."
It's true, that some NT verses are used to solidify the view that believers will go immediately to be with the Lord upon death. But, IMO, a careful reading of each context, with the literal meanings, will clarify the claims.
Let's look at 2 Cor. 5:8, quoted by rocka21.
First, some background is needed. This is Paul's second letter to the Corinthians. In his first letter he revealed to them many trues, including the Mystery of our being caught away to meet Christ in the air. Why was this a secret? Because, in all of history, everyone died, if they lived long enough, and then they would be resurrected.
But the secret Paul was given was, that when this "rapture" takes place, there will be living believers, members of Christ's body, who will be changed, to put on immortality; and meet the resurrected "dead in Christ" in the air to be with the Lord.
This is what I feel was Paul's greatest hope, for he wrote like this event could happen soon, at least that was his longings.
Starting at 2 Cor. 5:1: Paul likens our earthly body as a tent, while our heavenly one, he likens as a building. Using more metaphors, in verse 2, he likens our body as clothing, earnestly desirng to put on our heavenly clothing. And in verse 3, we read in the AV, "If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked." Obviously, "to be found naked," means to be dead. We have our earthly body (clothing), and we long for our heavenly body (clothing), so if we are "naked", then we have no body, and so would be dead.
And Paul again in verse 4, tells of his groaning, his longing, not to be unclothed (to die), but to be changed without dying, as he wrote of in his first letter.
He continues on to verse 8, writing of his desire to be present with the Lord: "We are of good courage, and would RATHER be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (Capitals mine for emphasis).
IF, the Lord had come in his time, then Paul would have "put on" heavenly clothing, i.e., a new, spiritual body, as described in 1 Cor. But, since he and many other saints in the church/body of Christ are "asleep", I think it is fair and gracious of the Lord God, that all who make up the body of Christ will be resurrected and those alive changed, and both together meet the Lord in the air at the same time. There are none who are "enjoying the blessings of heaven" ahead of us.
More later, Bick
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm going to pass on this one for the time being. But I believe the vast majority of mankind will uptimately end up in Heaven. Only a very few will end up in Hell.bobuk25 said:
First off, Lazarus was not resurrected. Had he been resurrected, he would have been made immortal, and no longer subject to death. He was simply restored to life again and, at some point afterward, died again. During the period of time between his first death and when he was brought back to life, I would assume he was in Paradise (which is not the same place as Heaven).
Not immediately. They, too, would have gone to Paradise to await the resurrection. Eventually, however, they will go to Heaven.
so what does the word resurrect mean?Katzpur said:
The word "resurrection" is translated from the Greek word a·na´sta·sis, which literally means "a standing up again.
resurrection involves raising the person from the lifeless condition of deathreactivating the life pattern of the individual.and that sure did happen with Lazurus. Jesus was just showing how with power from God he can bring people back to life, and in the future that is just what Jesus will do. John 5;28-29 but Lazurus was not in paradise, infact Jesus reffered to Lazurus death as like a sleep . and Jesus woke him up from this sleep like death. i would think that if Lazurus was in paradise he would have said to Jesus, HEY i was in paradise why did you bring me back . but he did nothing like that . thats because he was like he was sleeping , he just woke up to life again
NoahideHiker
Religious Headbanger
I think when investigating big questions like this we can block our thinking by being too narrow in where we can find answers. As a Torah observant Gentile I find answers in all kinds of places such as the Gramara, Zohar, as well as numerous Torah commentaries. These places are where I find the details which explain the simpler text of the Tanach/bible.
Judaism holds that when someone dies they spend time in a place where their deeds are reviewed and their soul is purified for a period of no more than a year. And depending on the situation the soul can transmigrate back to the material world if they require tikkun (soul correction).
Judaism holds that when someone dies they spend time in a place where their deeds are reviewed and their soul is purified for a period of no more than a year. And depending on the situation the soul can transmigrate back to the material world if they require tikkun (soul correction).
I liked what you said until you threw in the bone"Precepts of man"/fairytales.Second paragraph.NoahideHiker said:
Eat the fish, throw away the bones. Bones may lodge in the throat and cause you to loose your salvation. Tanach or NT.
Remember that if it does not align with Torah, it's the precepts of man.
NH, the fairytale of Noah's first wife also comes from a Jewish fable! A subject of "Adders"! Whether they are Jewish or Gentile they are sons of hasatan.
Shalom
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Katzpur said:
No.
There is a huge difference between the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul.
If humans have an immortal soul, these souls will exist eternally without any activity from God. If humans have to depend on God for a bodily resurrection, without God's activity, the body will remain dead, not living forever.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
So this, " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." is an idea of Plato's?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Assuming that you discount the concept that God created the soul to be eternal.
Aslo, at what point then does the soul die?
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
After years of believing that the soul goes directly to hell or heaven upon death...
I now believe a little differently. I believe that our soul rests and awaits the return of Christ.
I believe that those who are "sleeping" in the verses below, refer to those who are dead.
These verses also illustrate the rapture concept.
The Comfort of Christ's Coming
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him, those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you, by the by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will be no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
I now believe a little differently. I believe that our soul rests and awaits the return of Christ.
I believe that those who are "sleeping" in the verses below, refer to those who are dead.
These verses also illustrate the rapture concept.
The Comfort of Christ's Coming
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him, those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you, by the by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will be no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
NoahideHiker
Religious Headbanger
Ronald said:
I wouldn't expect you to agree with me or even believe me because I am not a christian and you appear to be one. And this is fine as I can get along with people of nearly all faith as long as there is respect there.
May Hashem keep you and bless you Ronald.
I know my earlier post was rather long, but if it could be read and the scriptures studied, I believe a lot of questions could be answered.
May, you are right. The word "resurrection" is a neutral word and does not mean "resurrected immeditately to immortality."
It is clear, no one has gone to heaven but Christ Jesus, who is in heaven!
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13, AV. Written by John after Jesus' ascension.
And further, Peter preaching on the Day of Pentecost about the prophet, David, in Acts 2:34, says, "For David is not ascended into heaven."
AGAIN, Other than Jesus, no one has ascended into heaven!
All who have died are in the grave (Sheol--Heb; Hades--Gk.) until resurrected!
Any verses that are interpreted as saying a person immediately goes to heaven (or "Hades") upon death, are usually taken out of context and misunderstood, IMO.
2 Cor. 5:8 is one of them. Read my comments on my post of 12/24/06, 10:08 pm, and then let's discuss it.
Another one is Phil. 1:20-23: "It is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be put to shame in any way, but that my speaking with all boldnes, Christ will be exalted now as always in my body whether by life or by death." NRSV.
NOTICE: Paul wants Christ to be exalted, to get the glory--to get the gain, if you please. Then Paul says in the next sentence:
"For to me, living is Christ, and dying is gain." GAIN TO WHOM? TO CHRIST !
"If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which I prefer. I am hard pressed between (literally, 'out of') the two (what he just talked about: Life or Death): my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;" the parenthesis are mine.
At the time of Paul's letter to the Philippians, Paul was in jail and had made many missionary journeys. Historians agree that Thessalonians and the 1 Corinthian letters have been written, and no doubt copied and circulated to the other known churches.
Now, if Paul's desire is to be with Christ, how does he tell us, in these two letters, that will take place? It is when the dead in Christ are raised and those who are alive at Christ's appearing both are changed, made alive, such that dearh cannot touch us. That is what I believe Paul is desiring, for he must have believed Christ was coming for the church/body in his lifetime.
May, look up all the places where people are said to be resurrected and I'm sure you will find no reference to them being made immortal. IMO, they all died again!
Bick
May, you are right. The word "resurrection" is a neutral word and does not mean "resurrected immeditately to immortality."
It is clear, no one has gone to heaven but Christ Jesus, who is in heaven!
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13, AV. Written by John after Jesus' ascension.
And further, Peter preaching on the Day of Pentecost about the prophet, David, in Acts 2:34, says, "For David is not ascended into heaven."
AGAIN, Other than Jesus, no one has ascended into heaven!
All who have died are in the grave (Sheol--Heb; Hades--Gk.) until resurrected!
Any verses that are interpreted as saying a person immediately goes to heaven (or "Hades") upon death, are usually taken out of context and misunderstood, IMO.
2 Cor. 5:8 is one of them. Read my comments on my post of 12/24/06, 10:08 pm, and then let's discuss it.
Another one is Phil. 1:20-23: "It is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be put to shame in any way, but that my speaking with all boldnes, Christ will be exalted now as always in my body whether by life or by death." NRSV.
NOTICE: Paul wants Christ to be exalted, to get the glory--to get the gain, if you please. Then Paul says in the next sentence:
"For to me, living is Christ, and dying is gain." GAIN TO WHOM? TO CHRIST !
"If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which I prefer. I am hard pressed between (literally, 'out of') the two (what he just talked about: Life or Death): my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;" the parenthesis are mine.
At the time of Paul's letter to the Philippians, Paul was in jail and had made many missionary journeys. Historians agree that Thessalonians and the 1 Corinthian letters have been written, and no doubt copied and circulated to the other known churches.
Now, if Paul's desire is to be with Christ, how does he tell us, in these two letters, that will take place? It is when the dead in Christ are raised and those who are alive at Christ's appearing both are changed, made alive, such that dearh cannot touch us. That is what I believe Paul is desiring, for he must have believed Christ was coming for the church/body in his lifetime.
May, look up all the places where people are said to be resurrected and I'm sure you will find no reference to them being made immortal. IMO, they all died again!
Bick
Thank you for the blessing. You rather missed my point, I agreed with all of the first paragraph, I too am not Christian, kinda in between the Noahides and Christians.NoahideHiker said:
One of my favorite people is a Noahide, Dr. Vendyl Jones from whom the "Indiana Jones" was created. He does not us the fairytales/fables found in and aroud the Talmud, they are by confused Rabbi's and they cause confussion.
Blessings to you also.
To the one who said (2Co 5:8 )We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Sorry but this doesn't prove your point. It simply means to be a pleasure to die, knowing the next thing you know is you are present with the Lord.
The dead know nothing! Mt. 24 :29-31, 1Co 15:51 and 1Th 4:17 All three are the first resurrection, those who are sleeping in the ground shall awake and forever be with the lord. Die, know nothing, awaken from your sleep and you are present with the lord.
Yeshua tells you once and Sha'ul tells you twice. Wake up Christian resurrection is not the gathering of bones. John's Revealation tells you there are two(end time)resurrections.
Shalom
gnostic
The Lost One
Regardless, whether you believe in heaven, hell, the soul or not, then when you die, you're dead.
Sorry...for stating the obvious.
What I'm trying to say is that your physical body go through the same decay process, unless you get cremated. If you're decompose and the maggots have a field day with your liver, face, eyeballs... Munching away at believers and non-believers...
Why are you turning green in the face?
I don't know about your mother, but my always told me to wear clean pair of underwear, just in case you pee on them when your life flashes pass your eyes. :cover:
Oops!
I miss that one. 
Can we replay that one again? No?
Don't wear underwear with the flag of your country. I admired patriotism, but this would be going overboard, and let's not forget, tacky. Very tacky. And guys. Please don't wear Tweety the Bird imprint on your underwear. Or Winnie the Pooh.
I maybe alright to wear when you're 4 or 5, but seriously . Dignity. Remember D-I-G-N-I-T-Y. *sigh*
Ok, where was I?
Oh yes, maggots. One solution is to get embalmed, but I don't recommend that. People just don't look so good when being embalmed, and it is even worse if you get mummified.
Never leave your money to your nagging wife, or lazy loaf of a husband. If you have mon-sters- :foot: I means, you have kids, then I suggest that you disown them in your will. Deny they are yours...or whatever it take.
So the bottom line for everyone, believer or not, I highly recommends that you wear fresh clean pair of underwear.
Sorry...for stating the obvious.
What I'm trying to say is that your physical body go through the same decay process, unless you get cremated. If you're decompose and the maggots have a field day with your liver, face, eyeballs... Munching away at believers and non-believers...
Why are you turning green in the face?
I don't know about your mother, but my always told me to wear clean pair of underwear, just in case you pee on them when your life flashes pass your eyes. :cover:
Oops!
I miss that one. Can we replay that one again? No?Don't wear underwear with the flag of your country. I admired patriotism, but this would be going overboard, and let's not forget, tacky. Very tacky. And guys. Please don't wear Tweety the Bird imprint on your underwear. Or Winnie the Pooh.
I maybe alright to wear when you're 4 or 5, but seriously . Dignity. Remember D-I-G-N-I-T-Y. *sigh*
Ok, where was I?
Oh yes, maggots. One solution is to get embalmed, but I don't recommend that. People just don't look so good when being embalmed, and it is even worse if you get mummified.
Never leave your money to your nagging wife, or lazy loaf of a husband. If you have mon-sters- :foot: I means, you have kids, then I suggest that you disown them in your will. Deny they are yours...or whatever it take.
So the bottom line for everyone, believer or not, I highly recommends that you wear fresh clean pair of underwear.