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What Happens When You Die?

godnotgod

Thou art That
Not if you examine the method of knowing itself.

What if there is no method, but only pure knowing, without thought?

Either you know that the statement you made earlier is true, or you just think you know. If you know that it is so, then you are speaking from a position of real knowing, which you said is not possible; or you just think you know, which means you don't actually know.

Examination of the method of knowing is useless if the examiner also cannot know anything for certain. That goes for the examiner of the examiner as well, and so on.
 
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ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
"Where there is light, there is no nescience"

What's your point? There is not light everywhere.


You are walking along a path at dusk and the wind is blowing. Suddenly, from the corner of your eye, you see a snake writhing on the side of the road. You jump in horror, only to realize in the next moment that it was nothing but a rope moving in the wind.
:confused::confused::confused:
I said nothing about hell; all I said is that by seeing into the true nature of death and the self, all fear is dispelled. Hell is just part of that fear.
How do we see into the "true nature of death"? Are you privy to it? If so, how did you come by it?

Obviously not, since, in the case of the Holocaust, they ended up exterminating them. The value placed on them is unintentional; they don't realize that the scapegoat is an integral part of seeing themselves as superior.
So they saw the Jews as superior, but didn't know it, yet that was the reason for exterminating them, to make themselves feel superior, but they didn't know that either.

pretzel8sa.jpg
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I disagree that life and death are an illusion. To claim that really just feels like a semantic game to me.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
1.
One can't know that anything they experience is real, possibly apart from something as fundamental as Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am).

2.
The only way you can say that is if you know the difference between what is real and what is not.

3.
Not if you examine the method of knowing itself.

4.
One can't know that anything they experience is real, possibly apart from something as fundamental as Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am).

One can't know that anything they experience is real. But if you examine the method of knowing itself, then you know for sure.

Wah.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1.

2.

3.

4.

One can't know that anything they experience is real. But if you examine the method of knowing itself, then you know for sure.

Wah.
Gotta give Socrates credit for this one. You know the old phrase, "All I know is how little I know."

Read the remarks in context, atanu. Here's the summary:

-It was proposed that experiencing something, means proof that the experience existed.

-I pointed out a counter-example, wherein I had an experience that led me to believe ghosts were real until I acquired further information that invalided that earlier conclusions. It's well known that experiences can be highly misleading, and eyewitness testimony doesn't go very far by itself in court due to how inconclusive it can be.

-So then I was asked how I can know anything is real.

-But that's the thing. For any experience you have, how can you prove it's real? Especially with the documented existence of dreams, hallucinations, and delusions, along with philosophical thought experiments like the Matrix or a brain in a vat, and religious concepts like Maya, any experience that happens to you, what tests can you do to be 100% sure you're not in an illusion?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Gotta give Socrates credit for this one. You know the old phrase, "All I know is how little I know."

Read the remarks in context, atanu. Here's the summary:

-It was proposed that experiencing something, means proof that the experience existed.

-I pointed out a counter-example, wherein I had an experience that led me to believe ghosts were real until I acquired further information that invalided that earlier conclusions. It's well known that experiences can be highly misleading, and eyewitness testimony doesn't go very far by itself in court due to how inconclusive it can be.

-So then I was asked how I can know anything is real.

-But that's the thing. For any experience you have, how can you prove it's real? Especially with the documented existence of dreams, hallucinations, and delusions, along with philosophical thought experiments like the Matrix or a brain in a vat, and religious concepts like Maya, any experience that happens to you, what tests can you do to be 100% sure you're not in an illusion?

A common argumentative ploy here at the forum.
How do you know anything to be real?

Try banging your head on the wall til you bleed.
Then continue to insist it's not real.

Think it might change your mind?
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A common argumentative ploy here at the forum.
How do you know anything to be real?

Try banging your head on the wall til you bleed.
Then continue to insist it's not real.

Think it might change your mind?
The experience of pain would be real.

But for the truth behind the cause of that pain and the reality of the environment, we'd have to presuppose it rather than prove it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The experience of pain would be real.

But for the truth behind the cause of that pain and the reality of the environment, we'd have to presuppose it rather than prove it.

Are you suggesting belief in what cannot be proven?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
-But that's the thing. For any experience you have, how can you prove it's real? Especially with the documented existence of dreams, hallucinations, and delusions, along with philosophical thought experiments like the Matrix or a brain in a vat, and religious concepts like Maya, any experience that happens to you, what tests can you do to be 100% sure you're not in an illusion?

It will depend upon why I need to. Or It will depend upon what I need.

And that, IMO, has linkage to the OP.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
What's your point? There is not light everywhere.

You asked how to dispel the darkness of ignorance. Where there is light in the mind, there is no ignorance. You know...Enlightenment.



We are programmed with fear of snakes, so we react automatically. So, too, are we programmed with fear of death, and react likewise. Re-program. Then you will see death as it actually is, rather than through the filter of your fear.


How do we see into the "true nature of death"? Are you privy to it? If so, how did you come by it?

Anyone can see into the true nature of things. But seeing is not thought about what one sees. Therefore, subdue thought so it is out of the way.

So they saw the Jews as superior, but didn't know it, yet that was the reason for exterminating them, to make themselves feel superior, but they didn't know that either.

You're reading things into what I said. Did I say that the Nazis saw the Jews as superior?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Gotta give Socrates credit for this one. You know the old phrase, "All I know is how little I know."

Read the remarks in context, atanu. Here's the summary:

-It was proposed that experiencing something, means proof that the experience existed.

-I pointed out a counter-example, wherein I had an experience that led me to believe ghosts were real until I acquired further information that invalided that earlier conclusions. It's well known that experiences can be highly misleading, and eyewitness testimony doesn't go very far by itself in court due to how inconclusive it can be.

-So then I was asked how I can know anything is real.

-But that's the thing. For any experience you have, how can you prove it's real? Especially with the documented existence of dreams, hallucinations, and delusions, along with philosophical thought experiments like the Matrix or a brain in a vat, and religious concepts like Maya, any experience that happens to you, what tests can you do to be 100% sure you're not in an illusion?

If we are in illusion and think it to be real, then we are in a kind of altered state of conscious awareness, the default being that state of consciousness which can know the real from illusion. So, being in an altered state is kind of like a dream; we are asleep in comparison to the default state of real knowing. The way we know that a dream is a dream in the ordinary dream-sleep state is by awakening. That awakening occurs on the Third Level of Consciousness which is Waking Sleep, from the Second Level which is Sleep with Dreams. Now, there is a Fourth Level of Consciousness called Self-Transcendence, or Self-Remembering, which is an awakened state of consciousness as compared with the Third Level, in which we usually think of as an awakened state, but which is not, just as, during a dream, we think we are awake, but are actually dreaming. And so, when the Fourth Level is entered upon, the dream-state of the Third Level is clearly recognized, beyond doubt. Of course, this experience being beyond that of ordinary rational conscious awareness, cannot be proven by such means. However, anyone can enter the Fourth Level (and beyond) via of practice and prove the experience to themselves, just as waking from a dream proves that it was a dream.

When the Fourth Level is entered upon, who and what we think we are acting on the Third Level is now clearly understood as being fiction. We call the experience of the Third Level 'Identification', which is nothing more than a composite of our social indoctrination that the mind falsely assigns the idea of "I" to, when in reality, such social indoctrinations are only a set of life experiences.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
One is something.

The other is nothing.

The fact that we're communicating right now and aware of it, is something.

An illusion is something, yet is not real.

BTW, you cannot know that something is something unless you are using nothing as a reference.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If we are in illusion and think it to be real, then we are in a kind of altered state of conscious awareness, the default being that state of consciousness which can know the real from illusion. So, being in an altered state is kind of like a dream; we are asleep in comparison to the default state of real knowing. The way we know that a dream is a dream in the ordinary dream-sleep state is by awakening. That awakening occurs on the Third Level of Consciousness which is Waking Sleep, from the Second Level which is Sleep with Dreams. Now, there is a Fourth Level of Consciousness called Self-Transcendence, or Self-Remembering, which is an awakened state of consciousness as compared with the Third Level, in which we usually think of as an awakened state, but which is not, just as, during a dream, we think we are awake, but are actually dreaming. And so, when the Fourth Level is entered upon, the dream-state of the Third Level is clearly recognized, beyond doubt. Of course, this experience being beyond that of ordinary rational conscious awareness, cannot be proven by such means. However, anyone can enter the Fourth Level (and beyond) via of practice and prove the experience to themselves, just as waking from a dream proves that it was a dream.

When the Fourth Level is entered upon, who and what we think we are acting on the Third Level is now clearly understood as being fiction. We call the experience of the Third Level 'Identification', which is nothing more than a composite of our social indoctrination that the mind falsely assigns the idea of "I" to, when in reality, such social indoctrinations are only a set of life experiences.
And you can do all that because of life. You've got to exist first to be able to go through subconscious gymnastics like we do when we sleep.

An illusion is something, yet is not real.

BTW, you cannot know that something is something unless you are using nothing as a reference.
And I specifically did use nothing as a reference.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
-----

When the Fourth Level is entered upon, who and what we think we are acting on the Third Level is now clearly understood as being fiction. We call the experience of the Third Level 'Identification', which is nothing more than a composite of our social indoctrination that the mind falsely assigns the idea of "I" to, when in reality, such social indoctrinations are only a set of life experiences.

Yes. Aitreya Upanishad states: He (soul or shiva or Turiya or the fourth) has three dream states.

The three dream states are: waking, dreaming, and sleeping. And that means that the Turiya as the connecting consciousness that runs through the dreams is real. We just call that Atman -- that wherefrom the mind and world spring and whereto the mind and the world subside.

Scriptures teach that knowledge of Turiya, extinguishes all fear, including the fear of death, since the Turiya is untainted ever and immortal. Being subtler than the subtle, it cannot be cut or burned. It is one without a second, so it is Shiva. Knowing Turiya means being the Turiya -- being the Self. One cannot know or define the Self, since that would objectify the subject. It is only possible to be the Self.
 
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