What Happens When You Die?

[ThePainefulTruth]

OK, but overall, everything still remains One. Any separation is purely conceptual.

Yes, I see everything as part of The One Whole.

Is it not because of our so-called 'free will' that we can create concepts of heaven and hell?

Inventions actually, which, since they are fabrications without foundation, are lies, or at least an unknown. We are free to explore and speculate, but the minute we claim something to be truth, with no authority or validation, we have ourselves believing those lies to be true.

In fact, is not the idea of a self that has 'free will' purely illusory? That we create the false idea that we are a separate ego acting upon the world?

No, the universe had to have been created for the sole purpose of providing us with (moral) free will, if God exists. If God doesn't exist, then we have it anyway. Animals don't have moral free will, they are innocent because they are not fully self-aware--which is the wellspring of our free will. Our self-awareness makes us realize the consequences of our actions towards others through our ability to put ourselves in their place. It allows us to override our animal instincts.

I am suggesting that God, heaven, hell, and self, are all concocted of whole cloth.

I am suggesting that Truth is God, whatever that Truth happens to be. The pursuit of Truth, by definition, means the pursuit of that which is right, correct, or one might even say, holy. But it is far too easy to emote that a lie or an unknown is the Truth. If we are not discrete individuals with free will, then we and the entire universe are without purpose.

"Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,
Yet the scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own."

 

[Tbone]

What Happens When You Die?

When you die you are...well dead.
There is no thought or awarness or work after you die.
The only hope for the dead lies in the resurrection from the dead.

 

[godnotgod]

When you die you are...well dead.
There is no thought or awarness or work after you die.

So there is no one who is dead.

The only hope for the dead lies in the resurrection from the dead.

...and if there is no one who is dead, then who is there that is resurrected? Even if there were someone lurking in the grave besides the body, why would we want to go on as we had been? That scenario/character has already been played out.

However, the consciousness behind the mask that was that character may have been in place before it's birth, and is there after it's death, meaning that it's nature is Unborn and Deathless. That being the case, no resurrection is required.

 

[godnotgod]

No, the universe had to have been created for the sole purpose of providing us with (moral) free will, if God exists.

.....If we are not discrete individuals with free will, then we and the entire universe are without purpose.

What is it that says that the universe has to have a purpose?

 

[Thief]

Your logic is erroneous: there is nothing that says that the universe has to have a purpose.

Other than for God to say.....I AM!

 

[Thief]

So what? The very fact that we are in communication is proof that we are interlinked, via consciousness, one to the other, whether we are in agreement or not.

There is only consciousness; 'yours' and 'mine' is an illusion.

Declaring all of this as illusion is not an argument.

If anything it assists in my perspective that we ARE separate.

 

[godnotgod]

Other than for God to say.....I AM!

To what end?

 

[godnotgod]

Declaring all of this as illusion is not an argument.

No, declaring the fact that we are interconnected via our consciousness is, which dispels the illusion of separation.

If anything it assists in my perspective that we ARE separate.

Yes? And? Do go on.

 

[horizon_mj1]

... the consciousness behind the mask that was that character may have been in place before it's birth, and is there after it's death, meaning that it's nature is Unborn and Deathless. That being the case, no resurrection is required.

Quite clever, and I see your point, but still can not understand how it is that you feel everyone is "interlinked"? Maybe we are the same as in being of the same Energies kind of as we are the same as being Human, but our definition lays within our differences creating a unique bouquet of personalities. If this were not so life would be so mind-numbingly bland IMO.

 

[godnotgod]

Quite clever, and I see your point, but still can not understand how it is that you feel everyone is "interlinked"? Maybe we are the same as in being of the same Energies kind of as we are the same as being Human, but our definition lays within our differences creating a unique bouquet of personalities. If this were not so life would be so mind-numbingly bland IMO.

It is said that 'variety is the spice of life', and I agree. But infinite variety does not mean division. There is a wide variety of rocks, plants, trees, clouds, animals, galaxies, etc., but everything in the uni-(ie; 'one')verse is interconnected with everything else.

Again, our human differences do not separate us into autonomous entities. We breathe the same atmosphere, share the same food, and constantly interact with one another, as humans, as families, as nations. At this very moment, you are connected with me via our universal consciousness, which projects itself as individual consciousness. In other words, behind your personal view is the field, or background against which it operates; that field is universal consciousness, which normally we are not aware of since we focus on the foreground, which is the self with which we are identified.

In the metaphor of the ocean wave, all energy-forms differentiated as waves are not only made of the same substance as the the undifferentiated source from which they emerge, they are, at all times, connected to it.

When the noise of personal consciousness ('monkey-mind') is subdued, universal consciousness, which is obscured by egoic activity, then comes into play. This awareness can be achieved via meditative practice.

'One Light, though the lamps be many'

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

What is it that says that the universe has to have a purpose?

Yeah, God could have created it as some sort of sick joke on us, but that would indicate a very weak minded omnipotent divine--which sort of clashes with the ability to create it in the first place.

 

[BBTimeless]

The only thing we know for sure is you go to sleep, lose control of your bodily fluids/waste, and then you never come back.

 

[godnotgod]

Yeah, God could have created it as some sort of sick joke on us, but that would indicate a very weak minded omnipotent divine--which sort of clashes with the ability to create it in the first place.

Why on earth would you say that? This earth is a virtual paradise; it is man's activity which has transformed it into a 'sick joke'.

Is it possible that it may have come into being purely out of a sense of divine playfulness, with no other purpose in mind other than that, much like a child would engross himself in doodling, or splattering mud on a wall just to see what images would be created?

 

[godnotgod]

The only thing we know for sure is you go to sleep, lose control of your bodily fluids/waste, and then you never come back.

There is definitely 'die-ing', but is there actually a 'die-er'?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

The only thing we know for sure is you go to sleep, lose control of your bodily fluids/waste, and then you never come back.

:faint:

Why on earth would you say that? This earth is a virtual paradise; it is man's activity which has transformed it into a 'sick joke'.

Yeah, with death which could strike at any moment hanging over our heads for our entire lives, evil people of all forms, indiscriminate natural events killing indiscriminately, Truth forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throne. Not saying this is hell but it ain't a utopia either.

Is it possible that it may have come into being purely out of a sense of divine playfulness, with no other purpose in mind other than that, much like a child would engross himself in doodling, or splattering mud on a wall just to see what images would be created?

We're back to a version of the sick joke, only now instead of a sick joke it's superficial fun. I don't think even you really believe what you just wrote. You're flailing, trying to think of a reason without a purpose and attribute it to God.....of all people.

 

[godnotgod]

Yeah, with death which could strike at any moment hanging over our heads for our entire lives, evil people of all forms, indiscriminate natural events killing indiscriminately, Truth forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throne. Not saying this is hell but it ain't a utopia either.

Is death the problem, or is fear and ignorance of death?

Do you suppose that all of the negatives you portray come about via man's ignorance of his own nature and of the world? That, if he understood the nature of his existence, he might never choose to take the world seriously, but to approach it in a sense of play? That, when it IS taken too seriously, that is when the trouble begins.

We're back to a version of the sick joke, only now instead of a sick joke it's superficial fun. I don't think even you really believe what you just wrote. You're flailing, trying to think of a reason without a purpose and attribute it to God.....of all people.

Ah, but I DO indeed believe what I wrote!

But going to the basics: when you look at the world without holding any preconceived notions in mind about it, it becomes obvious that we invent an arbitrary 'purpose' to explain it being there, simply because it is the rational mind which seeks an explanation, in which it attempts to make the tail wag the dog; to force reality to fit its conceptual thought patterns.

You want to add 'God' and 'purpose' and 'moral free will' to what you see, complicating reality more than what is actually in front of you.

So, if the existence of the world is more than just 'superficial fun', then what is it? A serious project? Does'nt that render it a sick joke far, far more than it having come into being out of a sense of innocent, serendipitous play?

You see, if there was no prior INTENT in the emergence of the world, then it cannot have become a sick joke. Only the notions of intent and purpose could create that.

I don't need to "think of a reason without a purpose and attribute it to God": purpose was not in place first; only the universe was without any idea of purpose or even God. To see that the world is there and you are in it at this present moment is all you know; indeed, it is all you NEED to know. But most of us do not even know that! We create all sorts of scenarios other than just that, and lose sight of being fully present in the here and now.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Is death the problem, or is fear and ignorance of death?

Death is the problem. It is still an unknown whether we fear it or not, even for those who wish for it. In any case, that has nothing to do with our purpose here, except perhaps for how we face it--but that's only one aspect of living.

Do you suppose that all of the negatives you portray come about via man's ignorance of his own nature and of the world? That, if he understood the nature of his existence, he might never choose to take the world seriously, but to approach it in a sense of play? That, when it IS taken too seriously, that is when the trouble begins.

So it's acceptable to go around murdering as many people as you can, which can only be justified by not taking life seriously.

You want to add 'God' and 'purpose' and 'moral free will' to what you see, complicating reality more than what is actually in front of you.

I only presume purpose and free will under the working assumption that God exists. If He doesn't, then we have no ultimate purpose than to just live and die. If He does exist, I see no other rational reason for our existence but our purpose to live with free will. You can stipulate that God is irrational (frivolous and not serious), but 100% of the universe that we've seen so far argues against that.

So, if the existence of the world is more than just 'superficial fun', then what is it?

A test or trial if you will. How can that not be blatantly obvious?

I don't need to "think of a reason without a purpose and attribute it to God": purpose was not in place first; only the universe was without any idea of purpose or even God. To see that the world is there and you are in it at this present moment is all you know; indeed, it is all you NEED to know. But most of us do not even know that! We create all sorts of scenarios other than just that, and lose sight of being fully present in the here and now.

Should life be so shallow and numb? Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? Only if we believe that tomorrow never comes or if we can ignore it, but it always comes, and with it the question of the ages, "Why?" What about the billions of people throughout history for whom misery was/is the only option from birth to death? What do you tell them when they ask you "Why?"--You may eat cake and have fun?

 

[Tbone]

So there is no one who is dead.



...and if there is no one who is dead, then who is there that is resurrected? Even if there were someone lurking in the grave besides the body, why would we want to go on as we had been? That scenario/character has already been played out.

However, the consciousness behind the mask that was that character may have been in place before it's birth, and is there after it's death, meaning that it's nature is Unborn and Deathless. That being the case, no resurrection is required.

Huh??

 

[Caladan]

What Happens When You Die?

Well my friends will gather around my tombstone which will bear the phrase 'Caladan- Buried Alive'. Hopefully they'll play some rocking music around my grave and bury some essential artefacts with me. I was thinking a bottle of scotch and Cuban cigars. Later my friends will read my will, and I hope everyone will be satisfied with their lot. And then a feast would be held which would last until the morning after.

Wait... is this what you had in mind?

 

[godnotgod]

Huh??

heh...heh...you should be far, far more astounded with the proposition of the dead rising from their graves!

like...HUH!?

..but on a more serious (ahem) note:

When you're dead, who is there to know they are dead?