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What Happens When You Die?
- Thread starter godnotgod
- Start date
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
Are you sure?
I think it is actually better not to know anything about these Jesus stories. Because once you heard them, you better believe them. Or else. A typical offer you cannot refuse
Unless you think that all people who never heard the "good" news for reasons outside their control (for instance per-columbian Americans) will go to hell by default.
Will they? If not, why not?
Ciao
- viole
What good would it do for God to send the good news to people he knows will reject it?
For example, God is under no such obligation to send the gospel message to an athiest who refuses to even believe in God period, God knows who will say yes and he sends the message to those who will accept it.
Well, this is obviously absurd. God is playing with the free will of atheists by withdrawing important information. Pretty lame. And useless. If He already knows who will buy it, the whole exercise is pointless.
But this is not my main point. My point is that we have evidence of entire populations that never heard of Jesus before the missionaries went there. I am not aware that Capt. Cook found churches when he landed in Australia, are you?
And the fact that missionaries go there seems to indicate that those missionaries are aware that those populations cannot possibly know about Jesus and might be receptive to accept the message. I don't think they are expecting to tackle a bunch of scientific rationalists, lol.
So, what about the life and death of one of these people who never managed to meet any of those missionaries and have, therefore, never heard of Jesus and the "good" news?
Will they necessarily go to hell or not? If not, will they have a higher chance of going to hell than someone who was lucky enough to live closer to missionaries or to the events concerning Jesus?
And if they had the same chances of salvation, as it is to be expected from a just God, why send missionaries at all?
Ciao
- viole
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RichardParker
Member
Well...
Couldn't he in that case just skip the entire "life" thing all together?
If he already knows, what people will eventually fallow him, and which won't, why do we have to go through this entire thing anyway?
Heck, why CREATE the people he knows will reject him in the first place? It's just a lot of collateral damage he creates there!
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
You are now questioning the character of God and not letting God be God. he does what he wants, because he is God and you are not.
Consider these words from God in the book of Job:
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
Job 38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
Job 38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Job 38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
Job 38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
Job 38:38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
Job 38:39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
Apple Sugar
Active Member
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
God is not playing the free will of athiest. What good will it do for God to send a missionary to talk to somebody about Jesus who doesn't even believe that there is a creator? That's like trying to teach somebody algebra who refuses to try and learn basic addition.
God sends missionaries when he knows there are people who will be receptive, what about this do you not understand? he is all knowing and knows who will accept his gift of eternal life.
People do not deserve to go to heaven because of sin, it is completely just for God to send anyone to hell,without them ever hearing the gospel, because all have sinned and chosen to do wrong in life. this includes people in foreign lands, When God allows sinners to have a chance to hear the gospel, that is called grace, because they do not deserve the chance, But I do believe that if there is anyone who would be willing to get saved, God will in fact allow them to hear the message somehow, the bible says that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.", the bible also says that he wills all men to come the knowledge of the truth and wills all men to be saved. Jesus also said that if he be lifted up (referring to the cross) that he will draw all men to himself; this shows that to some degree, God draws all men to Christ, to the degree that a person is willing to let God draw him, he will draw them.
Consider this passage from the bible:
Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Notice here is Eunuch reading the old testament scripture who is clearly searching for the truth, so God sends him somebody to explain to him about Jesus.
Consider another example:
Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Act 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Hope this helps you to understand.
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Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Notice here that God and his power are CLEARLY SEEN,BEING UNDERSTOOD, by the things that are made (Creation)
So God and his existence are clearly seen by looking at creation, for example the complexity of life, the vastness of the universe, the amazing laws of nature, these all point to an omnipotent God in the same way a 2014 Camaro point to that manufacturer.
This is called General Revelation, and it is the first revelation God gives to a man.
Everyone knows this at some point, the passage say that when they knew God they glorified him not as God, so they rejected God, usually because of the responsibility to him that this would bring, it's easier to deny God than to be responsible to him for out actions, because of this denial they end up in a downward spiral in all sorts of wicked depraved sins, and they usually end up in false religions as well, the passage talks about exchanging the truth of God into a lie, basically people create their own concept of God that does not exist, Pantheism and Polytheism are a good example of this.
Another revelation of God is the conscience:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Here it talks about the Law, mainly referring to the Ten Commandments, basically everyone knows deep down inside, that lying, murder, stealing, etc are wrong, and this is written on man's heart in his conscience.
The point i am making is if a person refuses to accept the revelation of Creation, and the Revelation of Conscience, then God is not obligated to give the revelation of Christ, this is completely just and fair. To say it is unfair of God for tribes that have not heard of Christ is just simply not true.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Notice here that God and his power are CLEARLY SEEN,BEING UNDERSTOOD, by the things that are made (Creation)
So God and his existence are clearly seen by looking at creation, for example the complexity of life, the vastness of the universe, the amazing laws of nature, these all point to an omnipotent God in the same way a 2014 Camaro point to that manufacturer.
This is called General Revelation, and it is the first revelation God gives to a man.
Everyone knows this at some point, the passage say that when they knew God they glorified him not as God, so they rejected God, usually because of the responsibility to him that this would bring, it's easier to deny God than to be responsible to him for out actions, because of this denial they end up in a downward spiral in all sorts of wicked depraved sins, and they usually end up in false religions as well, the passage talks about exchanging the truth of God into a lie, basically people create their own concept of God that does not exist, Pantheism and Polytheism are a good example of this.
Another revelation of God is the conscience:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Here it talks about the Law, mainly referring to the Ten Commandments, basically everyone knows deep down inside, that lying, murder, stealing, etc are wrong, and this is written on man's heart in his conscience.
The point i am making is if a person refuses to accept the revelation of Creation, and the Revelation of Conscience, then God is not obligated to give the revelation of Christ, this is completely just and fair. To say it is unfair of God for tribes that have not heard of Christ is just simply not true.
Apple Sugar
Active Member
If Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross, how would there ever be sin left in the world? And why would anyone need to missionary to anyone to bring them to the one and only God there is to come to?
While 1 Timothy 4:10 tells us there is no need to save anyone because Jesus did it all on the cross. Either that or he failed miserably.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, that can't be discounted.
While 1 Timothy 4:10 tells us there is no need to save anyone because Jesus did it all on the cross. Either that or he failed miserably.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, that can't be discounted.
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
I like the part where it says specially of those that believe, why do you think that is?
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
consider some commentaries on this verse:
Gill:"in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact. "
Adam Clarke: "Who is the Savior of all men - Who has provided salvation for the whole human race, and has freely offered it to them in his word and by his Spirit."
Albert Barnes: " This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed - especially of those that believe. There is something pertaining to them in regard to salvation which does not pertain to all men. It cannot mean that he brings all people to heaven, especially those who believe - for this would be nonsense. And if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be especially true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others without believing? But this would be contrary to the uniform doctrine of the Scriptures; see Mar_16:16. When, therefore, it is said that he is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe, it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, while, at the same time, it is actually true that those only are saved who believe. This may be true in two respects:
(1) As he is the Preserver of people Job_7:20, for in this sense he may be said to save them from famine, and war, and peril - keeping them from day to day; compare Psa_107:28;
(2) as he has provided salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him."
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
When interpreting scripture you must be honest about what it says and take time to think about what it means, and you must compare it what other scriptures say, there is reason why the last clause is in there, did you take time to think about it at all? or did you just post this as an attemp to try and point out that my message does not line up with the bible? or that the bible is wrong? most people are not honest about what the bible says, and they always take and pull stuff out of context and without comparing it the rest of the bible. Which i am afraid is what you are doing. You can make the bible say anything you want by pulling it out of context and twisting it.
For example:
The bible says God created everything and saw that it was good, the Pot Smoker will say "See God created everything and plants and said they were all good!", he however ignores 2 things 1. God cursed the earth after Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, which is AFTER God said everything was good. 2. They don't go around smoking poison ivy with the same logic.
So my point is people are often very ignorant and dishonest about what the bible says and do not take the time to actually find out what it really teaches, too many are content to go to some bible hating website and find tons of lies,misinterpretations,etc. rather than reading it for their self without bias to see what it says.
godnotgod
Thou art That
So how does a debate between two Christians over Christian scripture tell us what happens when you die, if the Bible is supposed to be the word of God and you two (let alone amongst the rest of you) cannot agree as to what it means?
You talk about honesty. So let's see how honest you are here:
The central point here is that 'Jesus Saves'. But in order for salvation to occur, there must be something real to save, and that translates to a soul or a self. IOW, if in all this talk about salvation, there is actually no such thing as a soul or a self called "I", who, or what, is there to save?
Secondly, if you can demonstrate the existence of such a creature, then why would Heaven want to save it anyway? It is obviously defective in character, as it is prone to sin. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what Christians tell us: that man's inherent nature is a sin nature, and sin would include murder, mayhem, and rape, to mention just a few. I certainly wouldn't those types hanging around my children in a heavenly afterlife. I say instant vaporization is a much better way.
This is the standard apology, but it is not convincing.
The problem is that they usually believe something completely different from your Jesus stories. Can you look at the vastness of the sky or to a tree and deduce that Jesus came to earth to wash our sins with His blood when you know nothing about Him? Well, then again, why send missionaries if that were so obvious? Btw, it is obvious that you can't deduce that, considering that skies and trees predate Jesus.
So, suppose that they come to completely different conclusions, as they always did.
Take as an example a remote human society outside the influence of Christianity.
They also saw the vastness of the sky, the wonders of nature, the beauty of life and deduced that God made it all, and their God is a giant ant with the head of a rat.
Will they go to hell?
Ciao
- viole
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Threatening people is not beautiful, loving or compassionate. Your beliefs are the perfect example of why many people these days can't stand Christianity and are fleeing churches in droves.
godnotgod
Thou art That
The only thing being revealed here is pure poppycock and ignorance.
The error in your analogy of nature to the Camarro is that the former is nature, while the latter is artifact. One is grown; the other fabricated. But your belief system has made the grave error of projecting the making of artifacts upon the natural world, thinking it artifact as well. And so, your God is the 'Maker', and the universe the artifact. Man is the clay, and God the artisan, again, another psychological projection onto an 'other' that is also projected by the ego. Here is how it works:
THE EGOTISTICAL STATES
1. APPARENT LOVE OF OTHERS BY PROJECTION OF THE EGO
This is idolatrous love, in which the ego is projected onto another
being. The pretention to divinity as 'distinct' has left my organism and is now
fixed onto the organism of the other. The affective situation resembles that
above, with the difference that the other has taken my place in my scale of
values. I desire the existence of the other-idol, and am against everything that
is opposed to them. I no longer love my own organism except in so far as it is
the faithful servant of the idol; apart from that I have no further sentiments
towards my organism, I am indifferent to it, and, if necessary, I can give my
life for the safety of my idol (I can sacrifice my organism to my Ego fixed on
the idol; like Empedocles throwing himself down the crater of Etna in order
to immortalise his Ego). As for the rest of the world, I hate it if it is hostile to
my idol; if it is not hostile and if my contemplation of the idol fills me with
joy (that is to say, with egotistical affirmation), I love indiscriminately all the
rest of the world. If the idolised being rejects me to the point of forbidding me
all possession of my Ego in them, the apparent love can be turned to hate.
from: Zen and the Psychology of Transformation, by Hubert Benoit
I recommend reading the books by Michael Newton. Amazon.com: Michael Newton: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle
Apple Sugar
Active Member
You're right.Sometimes people are very ignorant and dishonest about the spirit of God and what it means for that eternal creative power to be the one and only source of all that is, was, or shall be.
So when Jesus became the pure unblemished lamb on the cross, taking the sins of the world upon himself there and making that capital punishment device exploited by the Romans, but by no means invented by then, as an altar that was initially designed to hang and shame the dregs of Roman society, he continued to send the message he'd delivered in his earthly ministry.
God humbled himself to save the lowest of the low and the greatest of the great. He died as the last sacrifice for sin.Cleansing the world so that all who believe are saved. And all who are not are assured salvation.
There are very ignorant dishonest people who argue, when they speak of the King of Heaven, on behalf of exclusivity. Rather than inclusion.
"God is ours!" As if he's property who, as creator, suffers pride and designates favorites among all he created and set upon the earth to act according to his will.
They're what many like to call naive. And when they die, surprised.
So when Jesus became the pure unblemished lamb on the cross, taking the sins of the world upon himself there and making that capital punishment device exploited by the Romans, but by no means invented by then, as an altar that was initially designed to hang and shame the dregs of Roman society, he continued to send the message he'd delivered in his earthly ministry.
God humbled himself to save the lowest of the low and the greatest of the great. He died as the last sacrifice for sin.Cleansing the world so that all who believe are saved. And all who are not are assured salvation.
There are very ignorant dishonest people who argue, when they speak of the King of Heaven, on behalf of exclusivity. Rather than inclusion.
"God is ours!" As if he's property who, as creator, suffers pride and designates favorites among all he created and set upon the earth to act according to his will.
They're what many like to call naive. And when they die, surprised.
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
God is loving and gracious, the soul can be what we call "regenerated" basically God will come and change your from the inside out when you get saved, when you get saved and receive salvation the Spirit of God comes to dwell within you, this is why so many people experience changed lives after coming to know Christ, sure you might say instant vaporization is better, but you are not God and God is a lot more merciful and loving in his dealings than you, (or I ) would be.
Jordan Kurecki
Servant of Jesus Christ
Are you a Universalist?