What has happened to Protestantism?

[Rival]

A lot of these points are touched on in Martin Luther's Five Solas, so they're not exactly new.

"No Tradition" and "Bible only"... that sounds like sola scriptura to me.

"No saints"... that's soli Deo gloria. All glory to God; no veneration of Mary or saints.

To an extent, "no liturgy" ties back to solus Christus. Salvation is solely through Christ, not through sacraments performed by humans.

The Anglican communion kind of wound up "Protestant" by its own weird path and didn't necessarily adhere to all these ideas, but what you're describing seems to be bread-and-butter Protestantism.

Lutherans have a liturgy.

Luther had a high Mariology etc.

Sola Scriptura as modern Protestants understand it is not how the Reformers understood it, either.

 

[Kathryn]

T

Times change and much of that stuff is outdated.

Singing those old hymns is about as boring as it gets and certainly not celebrating the joy of Christ. They feel more like a chore you are required to do.

Hey, those "old hymns" were old when I was a kid and they were still and are still great in my opinion. Tell you what - you go to the church you choose and I will go to the one I choose and we will both be happy.

 

[Kathryn]

Sorry but that’s just someone’s opinion.

Here is an actual statistic.

Among religious groups, Catholics show one of the larger drops in attendance, from 45% to 33%, while there are slightly smaller decreases among Orthodox (nine percentage points) and Hindu followers (eight points).

Church Attendance Has Declined in Most U.S. Religious Groups

Three in 10 Americans, but 67% of Mormons, attend church regularly. Most religious groups show declines in attendance over the past two decades.

news.gallup.com

All I know is that the Latin services are absolutely packed and most of the people attending are young.

 

[Yerda]

I find the more ancient hymns to be inherently more sacred than any pop-style worship music

I especially find the words of Charles Wesley to be beautiful

The olden hymns give me a sense of connection and continuity to a by-gone age and to my spiritual ancestors

I prefer being at a church belting out hymns, "making a joyful noise" to the accompaniment of an organ than standing with my arms in the air as they do in the charismatic tradition, singing along to a band

Lots of the US churches are training grounds for unbelievably talented musicians.

I was going to say that I'd take a gospel band over UK-style any day, but the words fit better with the old hymns. As good as the singers tend to be in the happy-clappy churches, belting out the word "Jehovah" with a soulful vibrato just sounds weird. The old hymns about angels, Jesus and love just "fit".

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I was baptized an Anglican a few weeks ago.

I am finding, however, that young Protestants (under 30 or 35) seem to take Protestantism to mean:

1. No liturgy.

2. No Tradition.

3. No Saints.

4. Bible only.

5. Rock music.

Etc.

This is not Anglicanism, the largest Protestant denomination in the world. This is not Lutheranism, either.

What is going on?

Do people think liturgy = RCC?

Saints = RCC?

Tradition = RCC?

I have grown up with Anglicanism and we have and always have had all these things.

Wtf is happening to Protestantism?

So now you are Angican? Okay, I'm going to have to make a note of that. I'm curious what it was that brought you into Christianity (given that you were formerly Noahide) and why Anglicanism in particular?

You have to understand that a great many Evangelicals think they are the only true Christians. They base strong opinions on what is appropriate worship culture on their own styles and traditions.

Anglicanism is unique in that it is "via media," meaning midway between Catholicism and Protestantism. It has certain doctrines and traditions, like the centrality of the Eucharist to worship, that are solidly Catholic. And it has other traditions that are Protestant, such as which books of the OT it considers canon ( although in all fairness, I believe that Anglican bibles are required to have a section for the apocrypha, even though they do not consider those books canon).

There is also an interesting divide in Anglicanism between High Church (Anglo-Catholic) and Low Church (more protestant in orientation). For example, Anglo-Catholics are very big on Marian devotion, Low church is not. Both styles are okay in Anglicanism.

Let's go through your list.

1. No liturgy. You are correct that Lutheranism also has liturgy. But when you have only one exception to the rule, it does seem to indicate that there is a rule.

2. No tradition. This mistake really irks me, because in addition to being ignorant of the things in church history (like the ecumenical councils) that have influenced Protestant doctrine, it is sheer denial that things like altar calls or the sinner's prayer are traditions.

3. No saints. This is also simply an ignorance of other Protestant denominations. Both Lutherans and Methodists have saints. That's TWO exceptions, so I would say in this case, that there really isn't a rule.

4. Bible only. Now THIS is indeed a protestant teaching. It is one of the 5 solas of Protestantism: sola scriptura. In this respect, Anglicanism, which holds to the triad (sometimes called the 3 legged stool) of Bible, tradition, and reason is firmly on the Catholic side rather than the Protestant side.

5. Rock music. I'm not sure what you are saying. Rock music is used in all sorts of churches from Baptist to Catholic. Is there any denomination that does not use "Our God is an Awesome God"? Not that it is "appreciated" by everyone there LOL.

 

[Rival]

So now you are Angican? Okay, I'm going to have to make a note of that. I'm curious what it was that brought you into Christianity (given that you were formerly Noahide) and why Anglicanism in particular?

You have to understand that a great many Evangelicals think they are the only true Christians. They base strong opinions on what is appropriate worship culture on their own styles and traditions.

Anglicanism is unique in that it is "media via," meaning midway between Catholicism and Protestantism. It has certain doctrines and traditions, like the centrality of the Eucharist to worship, that are solidly Catholic. And it has other traditions that are Protestant, such as which books of the OT it considers canon ( although in all fairness, I believe that Anglican bibles are required to have a section for the apocrypha, even though they do not consider those books canon).

There is also an interesting divide in Anglicanism between High Church (Anglo-Catholic) and Low Church (more protestant in orientation). For example, Anglo-Catholics are very big on Marian devotion, Low church is not. Both styles are okay in Anglicanism.

Let's go through your list.

1. No liturgy. You are correct that Lutheranism also has liturgy. But when you have only one exception to the rule, it does seem to indicate that there is a rule.

2. No tradition. This mistake really irks me, because in addition to being ignorant of the things in church history (like the ecumenical councils) that have influenced Protestant doctrine, it is sheer denial that things like altar calls or the sinner's prayer are traditions.

3. No saints. This is also simply an ignorance of other Protestant denominations. Both Lutherans and Methodists have saints. That's TWO exceptions, so I would say in this case, that there really isn't a rule.

4. Bible only. Now THIS is indeed a protestant teaching. It is one of the 5 solas of Protestantism: sola scriptura. In this respect, Anglicanism, which holds to the triad (sometimes called the 3 legged stool) of Bible, tradition, and reason is firmly on the Catholic side rather than the Protestant side.

5. Rock music. I'm not sure what you are saying. Rock music is used in all sorts of churches from Baptist to Catholic. Is there any denomination that does not use "Our God is an Awesome God"? Not that it is "appreciated" by everyone there LOL.

I'm talking about what you find in most modern Prot churches, hence the thread title. You find neither Tradition nor Saints nor liturgy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I find the more ancient hymns to be inherently more sacred than any pop-style worship music

I appreciate what you are saying. But you need to understand that this is ENTIRELY a cultural thing. Some people prefer one, and others prefer the other. The ancient hymns that are so meaningful to you may come across as unbearably stuffy and strange to a Gen Zer. There are people who are DEEPLY moved by more contemporary church music.

As a Jew who sung in our synagogue choir, I've sung quite the range, from the Hassidic Kaddish to Deborah Freidman's Miriam's Song. I find them ALL to be meaningful expressions for me. For me, its like being at a buffet and being able to try a variety of different foods .

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm talking about what you find in most modern Prot churches, hence the thread title. You find neither Tradition nor Saints nor liturgy.

When you use the word "most," which would mean excluding the traditions of Lutherans and Methodists, then yes you are correct with regards to liturgy and saints. However, it is just mistaken to think that Protestants churches aren't chock full of traditions. It is also true that sola scriptura, as I pointed out, is one of the five basic points of Protestantism, which I think you agree with.

Example of Protestant tradition
A. based on church councils: trinitarianism, hypostatic union of teh natures of Jesus, the canon of teh New Testament, Christmas being on Dec 25, etc.
B. developed independently from Catholicism: Believer's baptism, altar calls, the sinner's prayer, the removal of communion from the centrality of worship, the giving of testimonies, improvised prayers, revivals, etc. etc.

 

[Rival]

When you use the word "most," which would mean excluding the traditions of Lutherans and Methodists, then yes you are correct with regards to liturgy and saints. However, it is just mistaken to think that Protestants churches aren't chock full of traditions. It is also true that sola scriptura, as I pointed out, is one of the five basic points of Protestantism.

But if you actually physically attend these churches, the most attended are low church Evangelical, which are the least associated with these things. The traditional ones are largely dead.

This is my problem.

You do not find liturgical Prot churches full of under 30s.

As I am in England there are very few Lutheran churches.

 

[Eddi]

I appreciate what you are saying. But you need to understand that this is ENTIRELY a cultural thing. Some people prefer one, and others prefer the other. The ancient hymns that are so meaningful to you may come across as unbearably stuffy and strange to a Gen Zer. There are people who are DEEPLY moved by more contemporary church music.

As a Jew who sung in our synagogue choir, I've sung quite the range, from the Hassidic Kaddish to Deborah Freidman's Miriam's Song. I find them ALL to be meaningful expressions for me. For me, its like being at a buffet and being able to try a variety of different foods .

I'd agree that contemporary worship music can be inspiring

However I cannot stand "Our God is an awesome God"

That is the only piece of worship music that I strongly and definitely dislike

I don't even want to post a YouTube link here of it as I'd have to see it in order to do that!

 

[Secret Chief]

I was going to say that I'd take a gospel band over UK-style any day, but the words fit better with the old hymns. As good as the singers tend to be in the happy-clappy churches, belting out the word "Jehovah" with a soulful vibrato just sounds weird. The old hymns about angels, Jesus and love just "fit".

I had to attend a (very long) happy-clappy service recently. Not had to do it before and hopefully never will again.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But if you actually physically attend these churches, the most attended are low church Evangelical, which are the least associated with these things. The traditional ones are largely dead.

This is my problem.

I don't attend any of these churches, so I'll have to trust you on this one. I am aware that pretty much all Christian denominations are losing members except for Pentecostals. It is pretty common knowledge that all organized religions, not just Christianity, are finding it hard to attract the younger generation.

You do not find liturgical Prot churches full of under 30s.

According to that chart, it appears that all the churches are really hurting for the under 30 crowd. I think this is a very sad development. Regular participation in a religious community is connected to health and wellbeing. In particular, this trend of not attending church services is almost certainly contributing to the loneliness problem.

 

[Rival]

I don't attend any of these churches, so I'll have to trust you on this one. I am aware that pretty much all Christian denominations are losing members except for Pentecostals. It is pretty common knowledge that all organized religions, not just Christianity, are finding it hard to attract the younger generation.

View attachment 91578
According to that chart, it appears that all the churches are really hurting for the under 30 crowd. I think this is a very sad development. Regular participation in a religious community is connect to health and wellbeing. In particular, this trend of not attending church services is almost certainly contributing to the loneliness problem.

Indeed and it is much worse in the UK.

Church in crisis as only 2% of young adults identify as C of E

Affiliation to national religion hits record low, with biggest drop seen in 45 to 54 age group

www.theguardian.com

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Indeed and it is much worse in the UK.

Church in crisis as only 2% of young adults identify as C of E

Affiliation to national religion hits record low, with biggest drop seen in 45 to 54 age group

www.theguardian.com

From what I've heard, you appear to be correct on this. It appears to be a combination of people simply opting out of organized religion altogether (baby boomers in the 60s kind of ditched religion, and so didn't pass it on to their kids), and the fact that the UK has a LARGE number of Muslim immigrants.

 

[Secret Chief]

I don't attend any of these churches, so I'll have to trust you on this one. I am aware that pretty much all Christian denominations are losing members except for Pentecostals. It is pretty common knowledge that all organized religions, not just Christianity, are finding it hard to attract the younger generation.

View attachment 91578
According to that chart, it appears that all the churches are really hurting for the under 30 crowd. I think this is a very sad development. Regular participation in a religious community is connected to health and wellbeing. In particular, this trend of not attending church services is almost certainly contributing to the loneliness problem.

It seems that in the UK the trad churches appeal is to the generation that is dying out. The attendances thus drop and then the church closes. The few well-attended churches in my neck of the woods are the happy-clappy type and seem to be bucking the trend or at least delaying the demise. Recent increases in professed Christianity were as a result of immigration from Eastern Europe. The students at the school I work in all come across as very dismissive of Christianity. The few that are interested in religion are Muslims.

 

[Secret Chief]

From what I've heard, you appear to be correct on this. It appears to be a combination of people simply opting out of organized religion altogether (baby boomers in the 60s kind of ditched religion, and so didn't pass it on to their kids), and the fact that the UK has a LARGE number of Muslim immigrants.

From the most recent Census (government website):

 

[Rival]

From what I've heard, you appear to be correct on this. It appears to be a combination of people simply opting out of organized religion altogether (baby boomers in the 60s kind of ditched religion, and so didn't pass it on to their kids), and the fact that the UK has a LARGE number of Muslim immigrants.

It's very lonely here and I detest it. I have joined the largest religion in the world and can still find no-one in my age group to form a community.

It's ***-poor and I'm starting to despise my own age group.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Hey, those "old hymns" were old when I was a kid and they were still and are still great in my opinion. Tell you what - you go to the church you choose and I will go to the one I choose and we will both be happy.

That sounds great but my point was that their is not a single correct way to worship.

I doubt God has a music preference.

 

[Kathryn]

That sounds great but my point was that their is not a single correct way to worship.

I doubt God has a music preference.

Yeah me too, so like I said, you do you and I'll do me.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Like stats?

The Latin Mass Among Millennials & Gen Z: A National Study

A recent online survey of 1779 adults from 39 states found that the “Traditional Latin Mass is experiencing a high volume of participation and interest in the 18-39 demographic.” Fr. Donald Kloster of the diocese of Bridgeport, CT, with the help of other contributors, conducted the survey between

fssp.com

Everything must be backed up with stats!!!!!

Thank you for the link.