• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What if creationism is true?

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
I don't understand. There's nothing random about the Big Bang or evolution.

On big bang cosmology, once the universe expanded, all of the energy randomly filled the space. Randomly, yet in order? Doesnt make sense. This is like getting two decks of cards, tossing them in the air, and the cards to assemble in to a nice "card house" as gravity pulls them to the ground. Not happening.

Murder, depends on the circumstance. Rape, yes. But your Bible is filled with your god allowing both, so I don't see how a Christian could object to those.

Well, you should distinguish the difference between murdering someone, and killing someone. Second, if all morality is subjective, then how can you claim rape is objectively wrong??? Third, in the bible, God does not allow rape, so I dont know where you get that from. And murder is forbidden in the bible, and is even one of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:13).
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
On big bang cosmology, once the universe expanded, all of the energy randomly filled the space. Randomly, yet in order? Doesnt make sense. This is like getting two decks of cards, tossing them in the air, and the cards to assemble in to a nice "card house" as gravity pulls them to the ground. Not happening.

You keep saying random like that's actually what's being taught or going on. Probability is different from randomness.



Well, you should distinguish the difference between murdering someone, and killing someone. Second, if all morality is subjective, then how can you claim rape is objectively wrong??? Third, in the bible, God does not allow rape, so I dont know where you get that from. And murder is forbidden in the bible, and is even one of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:13).

So, when god commanded the Jews to kill surrounding states, this was not god condoning and even commanding it? And I find it hard to believe that god has a big problem with rape, when in the Law of Moses, it's treated as a less heinous act than, say, having leprosy, or practicing witchcraft, or dozens of others where the penalty was stiffer than for rape.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Call of the Wild, you keep saying evolution is a "blind and random" process. I'm curious, have you ever actually read anything about evolution besides literature from your point of view? In other words, have you ever read anything about evolution written by people who accept it? It seems pretty obvious to me from your posts that you haven't, but I thought I'd ask and make sure. I need to know if it will be pointless or not to attempt to engage you in debate.


I dont need to read much. From the little that I have read, I am not convinced. I will never be convinced by science that attempts to explain absolute origins. I will look or read science to see how things work, but not where things came from. That is a big difference. I have eyes to see, ears to hear, a digestive system to break down food and give me energy, a circulatory system that allows blood to flow through my body, an immune system to help me fight diseases, a reproductive system that allowed me to have a handsome son (as myself :D), and a brain to help me think. What I am saying is, everything that I have within my body has a purpose. Purpose. Purpose. To have a purpose is to have an agenda. Evolution is not a thinking process. It is a blind process with no thinking or agenda whatsoever. You cannot get a blind and mentally retarded person and expect him to build a space shuttle. So how can this blind and unintellectual process be the origin of eyeballs in order for people to see, a brain for people to think, a nose for people to smell?? Im sorry, but this is completely absurd to me. Everytime we see purpose in our life, we recognize intelligent design. So why, when we see purpose as it relates to our own human anatomy, do we hesitate to draw the ID conclusion?? It is mind boggling. To answer your questions, I haven't read much biology or evolution material as a whole. But I have read bits and pieces, and so far no one can convince me that we can have all of this purpose from a process that is purposeless.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I dont need to read much. From the little that I have read, I am not convinced. I will never be convinced by science that attempts to explain absolute origins. I will look or read science to see how things work, but not where things came from. That is a big difference. I have eyes to see, ears to hear, a digestive system to break down food and give me energy, a circulatory system that allows blood to flow through my body, an immune system to help me fight diseases, a reproductive system that allowed me to have a handsome son (as myself :D), and a brain to help me think. What I am saying is, everything that I have within my body has a purpose. Purpose. Purpose. To have a purpose is to have an agenda. Evolution is not a thinking process. It is a blind process with no thinking or agenda whatsoever. You cannot get a blind and mentally retarded person and expect him to build a space shuttle. So how can this blind and unintellectual process be the origin of eyeballs in order for people to see, a brain for people to think, a nose for people to smell?? Im sorry, but this is completely absurd to me. Everytime we see purpose in our life, we recognize intelligent design. So why, when we see purpose as it relates to our own human anatomy, do we hesitate to draw the ID conclusion?? It is mind boggling. To answer your questions, I haven't read much biology or evolution material as a whole. But I have read bits and pieces, and so far no one can convince me that we can have all of this purpose from a process that is purposeless.

So you're saying that you don't read much science works, but only to understand how your body works. You admittedly don't read anything on cosmology or evolution, and that makes you feel somehow qualified to debate against it. If anything doesn't compute or make sense, that right there would be it. And unfortunately, for those who believe in creationism, that's the primary problem. They refuse to read and understand exactly how evolution works, or learn anything about it. And then they debate against it, when they have no real idea what they're debating against. With such I don't waste my time. I do not debate science with people who reject it on principle, without ever having actually studied what it is they're debating against. That is dishonest, at best. Now, your next point is about purpose. You say it as if it's true. Many people would argue that there is no purpose in life, and to suggest otherwise is irrational. Now, I believe there is purpose, but I do so without recourse to a deity of any type. I won't go into how science actually does show a deterministic course, and not randomness, because I'm not going to waste my time. But what about purpose itself? What is it in life that gives you the impression that there is some meaning and purpose to everything?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
You keep saying random like that's actually what's being taught or going on. Probability is different from randomness.

It was random. When the universe expanded, all the matter and energy RANDOMLY dispersed in space? Did it not? Yet, over time, it became organized and orderly, and completely fine tuned in order to make human life possible. Probability is a different story, i agree. My point is, you cant have get order from randomness. Or what we like to call "specified complexity" from randomness.

So, when god commanded the Jews to kill surrounding states, this was not god condoning and even commanding it? And I find it hard to believe that god has a big problem with rape, when in the Law of Moses, it's treated as a less heinous act than, say, having leprosy, or practicing witchcraft, or dozens of others where the penalty was stiffer than for rape.

When God commanded the Jews to kill people, this was a result of WAR. Guess what, people get killed in wars. How about you providing a scripture for this rape talk.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
It was random. When the universe expanded, all the matter and energy RANDOMLY dispersed in space? Did it not? Yet, over time, it became organized and orderly, and completely fine tuned in order to make human life possible. Probability is a different story, i agree. My point is, you cant have get order from randomness. Or what we like to call "specified complexity" from randomness.

Math doesn't allow it to be random. Each separate particle, had someone been there with the proper tools, could have measured and calculated and shown the projection of each individual particle.



When God commanded the Jews to kill people, this was a result of WAR. Guess what, people get killed in wars. How about you providing a scripture for this rape talk.

When an enemy attacks you and you attack back, that's self defense. When you arbitrarily attack another people, yes, that's war, but it's one that you started, and all because you believe a deity commanded you to do so. I'll look up the Mosaic Laws and get back to you later on the rules regarding rape.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
So you're saying that you don't read much science works, but only to understand how your body works. You admittedly don't read anything on cosmology or evolution, and that makes you feel somehow qualified to debate against it.

See thats the problem. You are spending to much time with rhetoric than answering questions. I gaurantee that there aren't to many people on this forum that are actually qualified biologists, so they are no different than I am when discussing such matters.


If anything doesn't compute or make sense, that right there would be it. And unfortunately, for those who believe in creationism, that's the primary problem. They refuse to read and understand exactly how evolution works, or learn anything about it.

This is nonsense. Its not that we refuse to read or understand how evolution works. It its amazing, that everytime someone disagrees with evolution, we have to be accused of being ignorant of the subject matter. It NEVER FAILS. We dont believe that life can come from nonlife. Plain and simple. So far, science is incapable of explaining this. It it shall always be incapable of explaining this. "You just dont understand evolution!!" I will tell you what I DO understand. Evolutionist expect me to believe that all of human life came from nonliving materials. That this blind and unintellectual process can produce eyes that can see, ears to ear, heart to pump blood, lungs to breathe, etc. This is absurd to us, so we refuse to believe it. Plain and simple. You can explain to me how the heart works all night long. Fine, but when it comes to absolute origins, thats where you have to stop, because science stops. You cant use science to explain the origins of nature. Impossible.

And then they debate against it, when they have no real idea what they're debating against. With such I don't waste my time. I do not debate science with people who reject it on principle, without ever having actually studied what it is they're debating against.

Well, I've asked the "gender" question over and over again. I haven't got one good response to this. So far, I guess im asking the right questions. Go ahead, answer the question of how our DNA structure could be more complex than a space shuttle, but the space shuttle was designed, and the DNA wasn't?? Answer. Only when evolutionists cant provide a adequate answer to a question, thats when the "you just dont understand evolution" crap comes out.

That is dishonest, at best. Now, your next point is about purpose. You say it as if it's true. Many people would argue that there is no purpose in life, and to suggest otherwise is irrational. Now, I believe there is purpose, but I do so without recourse to a deity of any type. I won't go into how science actually does show a deterministic course, and not randomness, because I'm not going to waste my time. But what about purpose itself? What is it in life that gives you the impression that there is some meaning and purpose to everything?

Whether life has a purpose is irrelevant. I was talking about our bodily systems We all agree that our eyes have purpose, our heart has a purpose, and our brain has a purpose, to name a few. So stick with the subject at hand and lets not attack straw man.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
When God commanded the Jews to kill people, this was a result of WAR. Guess what, people get killed in wars. How about you providing a scripture for this rape talk.
Here, let me help you....

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. ... For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. -- Deuteronomy 22:25-27

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. -- Numbers 31:15-18
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
This is nonsense. Its not that we refuse to read or understand how evolution works. It its amazing, that everytime someone disagrees with evolution, we have to be accused of being ignorant of the subject matter. It NEVER FAILS. We dont believe that life can come from nonlife. Plain and simple. So far, science is incapable of explaining this. It it shall always be incapable of explaining this. "You just dont understand evolution!!" I will tell you what I DO understand. Evolutionist expect me to believe that all of human life came from nonliving materials. That this blind and unintellectual process can produce eyes that can see, ears to ear, heart to pump blood, lungs to breathe, etc. This is absurd to us, so we refuse to believe it. Plain and simple. You can explain to me how the heart works all night long. Fine, but when it comes to absolute origins, thats where you have to stop, because science stops. You cant use science to explain the origins of nature. Impossible.
Here you have proven that you do not know what evolution is.
In fact, you are claiming that evolution is abiogenesis.
Since they are two distinctly different fields of science, you show that you are in fact ignorant about evolution and do not understand it.

And I am STILL waiting for you to present your calculations.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
See thats the problem. You are spending to much time with rhetoric than answering questions. I gaurantee that there aren't to many people on this forum that are actually qualified biologists, so they are no different than I am when discussing such matters.

But someone who is read up on it is more able to talk about it and discuss it than someone who hasn't.



This is nonsense. Its not that we refuse to read or understand how evolution works. It its amazing, that everytime someone disagrees with evolution, we have to be accused of being ignorant of the subject matter. It NEVER FAILS. We dont believe that life can come from nonlife. Plain and simple. So far, science is incapable of explaining this. It it shall always be incapable of explaining this. "You just dont understand evolution!!" I will tell you what I DO understand. Evolutionist expect me to believe that all of human life came from nonliving materials. That this blind and unintellectual process can produce eyes that can see, ears to ear, heart to pump blood, lungs to breathe, etc. This is absurd to us, so we refuse to believe it. Plain and simple. You can explain to me how the heart works all night long. Fine, but when it comes to absolute origins, thats where you have to stop, because science stops. You cant use science to explain the origins of nature. Impossible.

There are people here, and elsewhere, who believe in creationism, who have read up on evolution. Those are the people that one can engage in debate and discussion with. And as far as life coming from non-life, that's pretty much how it happened. How do you define life? All things, regardless of living or non-living, are made up of atoms, things in which have no life in and of themselves. Certain combinations are what produces life. Just because science has yet to describe exactly how that happens, doesn't mean it won't be able to. So me, I'd rather trust what I can see and feel, and what is logical and rational, before I'd accept supernatural causes and conditions.

Well, I've asked the "gender" question over and over again. I haven't got one good response to this. So far, I guess im asking the right questions. Go ahead, answer the question of how our DNA structure could be more complex than a space shuttle, but the space shuttle was designed, and the DNA wasn't?? Answer. Only when evolutionists cant provide a adequate answer to a question, thats when the "you just dont understand evolution" crap comes out.

Complex DNA structures don't necessarily imply a creator. And I'm not qualified enough to answer the "gender" question. So I'll leave that to someone who knows more about it than I do.


Whether life has a purpose is irrelevant. I was talking about our bodily systems We all agree that our eyes have purpose, our heart has a purpose, and our brain has a purpose, to name a few. So stick with the subject at hand and lets not attack straw man.

Life having meaning is not irrelevant. You believe that since different bodily organs each have their purpose, that this implies design, which you would assert can only come from a higher power. So, whether it's the heart, the brain, or life itself, that's the logical outcome of this particular topic.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I dont need to read much. From the little that I have read, I am not convinced. I will never be convinced by science that attempts to explain absolute origins.
So, if I were to provide absolute and undeniable scientific evidence that life arose from inorganic matter, would you accept it?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Call_of_the_Wild said:
I will never be convinced by science that attempts to explain absolute origins.

Evolution does not attempt to explain absolute orgins, only what happened after life originated on earth.

Billions of non-Christian theists and deists already believe in various forms of creationism. From a Christian perspective, how will that help them after they die?
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
@ basically everything Call_Of_The_Wild said

Woah... a lot to deal with here...

Ok, so first of all, I'll address this all randomly.

1) the first thing capable of sexual reproduction and have both sexes. it would also be able to asexually reproduce. So it would of split into two and then had sex with itself, much like a plant that is both male and female with self pollination.

2) Actually it DOES make sense for energy to disperse fairly uniformly after the Universe expanded. What little matter out lasted the anti matter made what we got today, and after the Universe cooled down, atoms formed. After about 300 million years galaxies formed.

Now your saying about cards and gravity? First of all this was a crap ton of matter that actually could have a gravitational effect. Add to it that the Big Bang would of produced many black holes which would serve as anchors of mass. My personal hypothesis is that this is how the super-massive black holes at the center of most galaxies first formed.

Uniformity is on an overall scale, for example all the galaxies are not one one side or bundled together, but are rather spread out evenly. If everything is random, then it is uniformly random.

3) Yes, all morality is mostly subjective. good and evil are just part of the same scale of actions. all that matters is that you can live with the consequences. Though denial of self, or others via proxy is an objective sin, and rape can fit as denial of self via proxy.

4) not all theists believe in ID. I don't per se. Humans are not unique other than we are more adaptable then other life in general. Leviathan geared the Universe to favor life, but he didn't actually gear it towards any specific kind of life.

5) I do know what gods are real and "made" us, but it wasn't a xtian god. Leviathan is the Universe personified. The Pantheism in my beliefs. From his unconscious shell he made a "spirit incarnate" that I give the Hebrew title "Ha-Satan". It means "The Accuser" in English.

The Accuser is the god of life, just as his larger self is the god of non-life. The Accuser represents the entirety and spirit of life, both "good/light" and "evil/dark".

Many other gods exist, but they are just transcendent human souls. anything less than that is a wisp, unintelligent spirit, or daemon that was once a man or woman... or animal that had a "Incorporeal/spiritual aspect" as I call it.

And yes, I believe in evolution.

6) There ARE contradictions in the Bible, and a lot of Christian Theology is not Biblical even.

7) Jesus's Resurrection is only recorded in the Bible, a biased source to begin with.

8) Evolution DOES NOT deal with how life began, just how the variety of species came to be.

9) Not everyone wants to live forever, I probably don't in the long-run even after I become a god. Eternity might become maddening.

10) Yahweh, if he even exists, isn't the nicest guy so even if Genesis is supposed to be literally I wouldn't trust the source. Also there is reserach to show that it is a mash-up of four traditions told as one, explaining the contradictions.

11) oh ya keep forgetting. "orderly" is such an inaccurate term. Things over time go from a concentrated energy state to a less concentrated one in the long-run, mostly as a result of diffusion and friciton, but we are like a trillion trillion trillion x 56 years away from the Heat Death of Leviathan.

so as the Universe cooled, yes things would collapse under immense gravity then form stars and galaxies, but it didn't build up star by star, but rather more or less around the same time all the stars formed in each galaxy.

It makes perfect sense, you just don't understand basic astronomy and physics is all. and yes im an astronomy buff. The Heavens declare the glory onto god[Leviathan], eh? you should study The Universe (God) more closely before making such blasphemous statements about how he doesn't make sense.

And if you do not get that I just referred to psalms 19:1 I, this would be the ultimate irony. it was my favriote verse as a xtian, still a good one though.

edit: very tired may not be the best articulated right now
 
Last edited:

Leafar

New Member
True. There was no census carried out during Herod's reign.

Also, the Romans wouldn't do census on non-provincial kingdom. Herod may pay tributes to Rome, but the Judaeans wouldn't pay tax to Rome, so there would be no reason for the Romans to have census in Judaea while Herod the Great was still king (or his son, Herod Archelaus, and successor) of Judaea.

The census was carried out only when Archelaus was ousted in 6 CE, and Augustus had Quirinius appointed as legate of Syria, and Coponius as prefect of Judaea. Because Judaea has become province, a census was required.

What I don't understand is why Joseph would have to travel from Galilee to Bethlehem to enroll for the census when he wasn't even living in Judaea.

As you say, it makes no sense, though I didn't know about that last part in such specific detail. Interesting.

As I keep pointing out, each cell in our DNA is more complex than a space shuttle. You cannot get this kind of complexity from a blind and random process, which is exactly what evolution is.

And as I keep pointing out: The evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. It "only" explains the diversity of species and how something complex can spring from something simple if given enough time.

The origin of life is another topic and if we are to discuss it there is a few suggestions on that as well. The cells of today, with all there parts are "infinitly" more complex than the first string of DNA would have been. It's not like the first form of life ever where like the cells of today. As I also pointed out earlier, the simplest one cell organisms today are extremely more complex than what we would have found at the beginning.

DNA are just a bunch of amino acids which during the right conditions form strings and fold themselves in specific 3D forms. In the "beginning" it would probably have been just a string of a few amino acids forming either DNA or RNA and because of their attribute of being able to copy themselves it would be the only thing needed for evolution to kick in.

There is no sharp line to be drawn to tell when a string of DNA is complex enough to be called a lifeform. It is a slow process beginning with extremely simple constitutions of amino acids forced by the laws of physic to form certain chains with ability to copy.

A blind man has a better chance of going to the junkyard and assembling a space shuttle than non-living material to produce a living cell.

True. But as shown above that has nothing to do with it since a living cell wasn't formed just like that from non living materia. The living cell is quite high up on the evolutionary ladder if you involve the first, very simple forms of DNA/RNA.

There is no scientific explanation for this kind of complexity.

Here on the other hand, you are wrong. Evolution does explain, and in great detail as well, the complexity of life. It explains perfectly how complexity forms from simplicity.

To believe this occured by a evolutionary process is a leap of faith. It is relying on the unseen. And not only are you relying on the unseen, but the PROCESS of evolution is relying on the unseen. There is no mind, there are no eyes. There is no agenda. There is no purpose. There is just this mindless, blind, unintelligent process that seems to be performing these acts of complex and orderly functions. This just can not happen. So if you believe it, thats fine, but for you, and others to say that this is science is being disingenuous.

The immense amount of evidence supporting the theory of evolution exist whether you like it or not. And evolutionary biology is a science as good as any. The results, backing up the theory, has been reached using the scientific method.

But you are right. Evolution has no eyes and no agenda. It simply is. The individual animal, best suited to pass it's genes on survives. The offspring goes through the same process and the species gets more and more fine tuned to their enviorment. It is very simple, really.

Saying you dont know something is taking the honest approach, no doubt. But, there are only two options. Either we are here by evolution, or we are here by ID.

Nonsense. Since we don't know there is an infinite number of possible, completley natural explanations that might or might not be found later. It's not evolution or ID, it's Evolution, ID or something completley different that we don't know of yet. Disproving evolution wouldn't be the proof of ID. All serious scientists would just say: "Ok, evolution is obviosly not the explanaition, now let's find out what is."

No, you dont know what you are talking about. First of all, I didnt say that it just suddenly "pop up in one generation". Side by side?? The question is, before each gender got its reproductive organs, how were they reproducing??? You said "it takes millions of years and the reproductive organs develope side by side", which FAILS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. While the reproductive organs were developing, how were they reproducing??

Before species with two sexes there where probably just cell division as reproductive process. Then a possibility would be that one type of species were able to mix their DNA in the reproductive process, something that is favourable when it come to natural selection since the differences becomes bigger, thus speeding up the process. But I must say that I am not sure. I would have to look into that further.

Second,how did evolution know what was needed to be compatible?? Males have testicales that produce sperm, and a penis to which the sperm travels to fertilize the eggs which are in the females vagina. The female just happen to have what is needed in her system to reproduce with the males system. How did evolution know?? How can a blind an unintellectual process know what each gender needed??

It's not like males and females evolved their genitals separetley until they were "finished" and fitted together perfectly. As an example: Say that one special type of cell mutate over time (due to copying errors and radiation. This is very common) into a type of cell that has the ability to mix with other cells of the same kind to produce offspring with DNA from both its "parents". This would as I said be favourable. The next generation would be, let's say a hundred cells where a few of them (by chance) had a slight difference which made the "mixing" process easier or less costly (regarding energy). That would mean that that kind of cell would have a bigger chance of reproducing, thus increasing the amount of cells with that typical attribute. Parallelly would also another kind of cell develop, namely one who would be better to mix with that kind of cell I explained above. This would mean that we would have taken the first tiny steps towards a penis and a vagina and two sexed species. This is hard to explain but it is forced to happen (if that first change happen by chance, which is not at all impossible).

Third, as I said before, this same question applies to all living organism excluding plant life. How are roaches reproductive systems compatibles, how are whales, the same question applies to these guys as well. This lame answer you gave makes it clear, that science does not provide a good answer for this, and that ID is the best explanation. I would like my questions answered, please.

Acctually, many plants species are also two sexed. And many animals are not. ID is not the best explanation in any case since it has no evidence at all. The only thing you have based ID on so far is, in your opinion, the lack of evidence for real scientific theories. ID is a vauge hypothesis without any evidence at all.



On my research there is some concern as to whether the translation should be "before" Quirinius was governor as opposed to "while" Quirinius was governor. As long as this is even possible, then there should be no cry of a contradiction.

This is also why the Bible is unrelyeable. People don't even know what was written from the beginning. When a contradiction is pointed out, people do everything they can to find a slightest chance of something being a translation error, no matter how improbable. If this is the case of every contradiction, then there is lots and lots of translation mistakes. A rather weak source of information.
 

Leafar

New Member
4) not all theists believe in ID. I don't per se. Humans are not unique other than we are more adaptable then other life in general. Leviathan geared the Universe to favor life, but he didn't actually gear it towards any specific kind of life.

5) I do know what gods are real and "made" us, but it wasn't a xtian god. Leviathan is the Universe personified. The Pantheism in my beliefs. From his unconscious shell he made a "spirit incarnate" that I give the Hebrew title "Ha-Satan". It means "The Accuser" in English.

The Accuser is the god of life, just as his larger self is the god of non-life. The Accuser represents the entirety and spirit of life, both "good/light" and "evil/dark".

Many other gods exist, but they are just transcendent human souls. anything less than that is a wisp, unintelligent spirit, or daemon that was once a man or woman... or animal that had a "Incorporeal/spiritual aspect" as I call it.

I agree with you on most things. I was just wondering, since I haven't encoutered anybody with your kind of belief system before: From where do you derive the conclusions stated above? I see that you refer to the Bible in some cases. Is that, in your opinion, the source of knowledge regarding these matters? Is there other scriptures or philosophies that adress this? Just curious.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
But someone who is read up on it is more able to talk about it and discuss it than someone who hasn't.

So, its all about who read the most books on the subject?? Cmon now. What I am saying is, evolution is not science. No one has ever observed this large scale evolution that we see in text books. The only thing we've ever observed are one type of animal, "a dog", producing different varieties of dogs. This is the ONLY CHANGE we've seen. To postulate anything beyond this is relying on faith. Evolution is a religion that is faith based, because no one has ever observed it, and there is no evidence that any of this occurred. Dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish. This is all you have ever seen, this is all i've ever seen, and this is all that anyone has ever seen. There is no reason to go beyond this. To go beyond this is to step outside of science and move to religion.

There are people here, and elsewhere, who believe in creationism, who have read up on evolution. Those are the people that one can engage in debate and discussion with.

Lets get this point clear, I dont care who has read up on it, who has a degree in the field of biology, or who read the most biology books. The fact remains, we have never saw any dog produce a non-dog, or a cat produce a non-cat. We only observe animals producing their own kind. Dogs, to our knowledge, will always produce a dog. Point blank, period. To go beyond this is to not use the scientific method, which is what this is supposed to be based on. It has not be observed, and it has not be tested.

And as far as life coming from non-life, that's pretty much how it happened. How do you define life? All things, regardless of living or non-living, are made up of atoms, things in which have no life in and of themselves. Certain combinations are what produces life. Just because science has yet to describe exactly how that happens, doesn't mean it won't be able to. So me, I'd rather trust what I can see and feel, and what is logical and rational, before I'd accept supernatural causes and conditions.

"Thats pretty much how it happened" is not an effective answer. I could easily point to the book of Genesis chapter 1 and tell you "thats pretty much how it happened." How can non-living material be able to produce living material? Not just living material, but living, breathing, thinking, and reproducing material?? This is completely absurd in my eyes.

Complex DNA structures don't necessarily imply a creator. And I'm not qualified enough to answer the "gender" question. So I'll leave that to someone who knows more about it than I do.

So, does the existence of a space shuttle imply a designer or creator?? If the answer is yes, then how is it that something more complex than a space shuttle not require a designer? And of course you dont know how to answer the gender question, no one does.

Life having meaning is not irrelevant. You believe that since different bodily organs each have their purpose, that this implies design, which you would assert can only come from a higher power. So, whether it's the heart, the brain, or life itself, that's the logical outcome of this particular topic.

Well, the subject of whether life having meaning is not the point. The point is, in your body, all of your organs have a purpose. You have a computer, right? Your keyboard has a purpose, your monitor have a purpose, your printer has a purpose, the keys on your keyboard, all have purpose. Each piece of your computer has a purpose. The structure of your DNA is more complex than your computer. Man has not been able to create a device that is more complex than our DNA. So, this whole biological process, with no mind, no intellect, and no purpose, was able to create things with minds, intellect, and purpose?? Oh give me a break here. I think it is clear where the evidence points.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Evolution does not attempt to explain absolute orgins, only what happened after life originated on earth.

I didn't say that it did. But science as a whole does try to explain absolute origins, and that is the problem. Second, I dont believe what science claims happened "after life originated on earth".

Billions of non-Christian theists and deists already believe in various forms of creationism. From a Christian perspective, how will that help them after they die?

It wont help them. Everyone that has a chance to know about Jesus Christ has a choice whether to accept him or reject him. God will not hold those that hasn't had a chance to know him responsible.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
So, its all about who read the most books on the subject?? Cmon now. What I am saying is, evolution is not science. No one has ever observed this large scale evolution that we see in text books. The only thing we've ever observed are one type of animal, "a dog", producing different varieties of dogs. This is the ONLY CHANGE we've seen. To postulate anything beyond this is relying on faith. Evolution is a religion that is faith based, because no one has ever observed it, and there is no evidence that any of this occurred. Dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish. This is all you have ever seen, this is all i've ever seen, and this is all that anyone has ever seen. There is no reason to go beyond this. To go beyond this is to step outside of science and move to religion.

I'm done debating evolution with you. I'm not debating science with someone who hasn't read anything about it, doesn't know anything about it, and refuses to do either. Debating it is pointless. I'm not going to debate someone who is willfully ignorant and has demonstrated that blind faith is preferable to logic and reason.



Lets get this point clear, I dont care who has read up on it, who has a degree in the field of biology, or who read the most biology books. The fact remains, we have never saw any dog produce a non-dog, or a cat produce a non-cat. We only observe animals producing their own kind. Dogs, to our knowledge, will always produce a dog. Point blank, period. To go beyond this is to not use the scientific method, which is what this is supposed to be based on. It has not be observed, and it has not be tested.

That's because you believe the earth is only six thousand years old and created by some imaginary sky fairy. Evolution is a slow process taking millions of years. Understand first that beliefs and faith are not science, nor based on logic and reason, and then come back and debate me on the topic when you actually have something to debate.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
call of the wild said:
On my research there is some concern as to whether the translation should be "before" Quirinius was governor as opposed to "while" Quirinius was governor. As long as this is even possible, then there should be no cry of a contradiction.

During the last few years in Herod the Great's reign, Quirinius was a commander, quelling rebellious tribe that bordered on both provinces - Galatia and Cilicia (between 5 and 3 BCE). This tribe lived in the mountains in Galatia and Cilicia. He was most likely legate of Galatia (6-3 BCE). So Quirinius was definitely not in Syria at that time, being governor.

If Jesus was born in 6 BCE (though I am not certain he was born at this time), then he was either born when one of these two Romans were legate of Syria:

  • Gaius Sentius Saturninus held the office from 9 to 6 BCE. His son, Gnaeus Sentius Saturninus became legate of Syria in 19 CE.
  • Publius Quinctilius Varus was legate of Syria, starting in 6 BCE. I am not sure when Varus' office ended. Varus was still governor when he put down the messianic revolt after Herod's death in 4 BCE.
Here, I will make it easier for you. There is a list of legates of Syria in Wikipedia.



As you can see Quirinius was never governor of Syria prior to death of Herod the Great (4 BCE) or the exile of Herod Archelaus (6 CE). After Archelaus, Judaea became a Roman province.
 
Top