What if People aren't sent to Hell because of their Religion

[Robert.Evans]

Hades isn't the grave, check Greek theology, it has a full description of rivers and lakes, etc within it.... Sheol and the Pit, are not seen as only a grave by the prophets, they're clearly referenced as a place demons come from, and lost souls are put.

Reference where you are meaning, then can debate it.

I think it might be quite boring, but let's give it a try:

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[wizanda]

Mat 3:10

John the Baptist was referring to the nation of Israel, that brought forth no good fruit; so was saying that they should repent, otherwise they would be cut down, and put to the fire (which they were soon after)....Doesn't say anything about believing in a religion, or person, just that they should turn from their wicked ways.

Do you see the difference? It is quite clear throughout, one is about following a religion to be saved, the other is about doing what is righteous.... Some people even get confused, and think righteousness is a religious word, when it means someone who is a decent human being.

 

[Robert.Evans]

John the Baptist was referring to the nation of Israel, that brought forth no good fruit; so was saying that they should repent, otherwise they would be cut down, and put to the fire (which they were soon after)....Doesn't say anything about believing in a religion, or person, just that they should turn from their wicked ways.

Do you see the difference? It is quite clear throughout, one is about following a religion to be saved, the other is about doing what is righteous.... Some people even get confused, and think righteousness is a religious word, when it means someone who is a decent human being.

The point is it mentions fire for wrongdoing. And though there is the surface text, there is the deeper meaning. Do you agree with that? Because if you don't we can save a lot of aching fingers typing

 

[wizanda]

The point is it mentions fire for wrongdoing. And though there is the surface text, there is the deeper meaning. Do you agree with that?

Of course there is the threat of Hell within lots of the text....If you're not following what Yeshua stated, you're basically going to be kicked out of reality, when Judgement day comes....Yet you're not going to Hell for not following the wrong religion, or person.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think "Hell" is more of a problem in US than here, UK. Don't hear anyone mentioning it much.
Presumably it was part of your teaching?

Hell, specifically who's going and why, is a central theme in most U.S. churches.

 

[George-ananda]

It is amazing that what has been sold to us, is that unless you follow some person, with their beliefs, and religious laws, then you're going to hell...

I think this is less and less so in modern times. And even in old times people intuitively knew you were not a follower without right behavior in thought and deed. I hate to see a religion like Christianity maligned in so simple a way. I'm a 'keep the baby throw out the bathwater' type when it comes to religion.

 

[Demonslayer]

I thought it was pretty sick to show kids that, even if it was like that.

I get a lot of flak for saying it, but I feel teaching small children about hell should be considered child abuse. No child during their formative years should have such imagery and fear pressed upon them.

I've told this story before so pardon if it's a repeat, but when I was about 13 or so I was coming out of church with my parents and the priest who said mass that day normally waited outside to say good bye to everyone and chit chat. This one day a young girl, probably around 7 or 8, came up to the priest and said "Father, one of my friends said my parents are going to hell for getting divorced, is God going to send my parents to hell?" The priest looked right at her and said "I'm sorry child, but divorce is a sin in God's eyes, so yes I'm afraid they will not make it to heaven." The girl, of course, ran off crying. My mother, one of the most devout people you'll ever meet, went up to the priest and said "how could you say that to such a young child?" and he responded "it's the truth, you know it's the truth, and I would be doing the child a disservice to lie to her."

I have no words for how evil I think this is.

 

[Demonslayer]

I'm a 'keep the baby throw out the bathwater' type when it comes to religion.

I hear this a lot but I disagree because the 'bathwater' of religion is so often linked directly to the 'baby' parts. For example you can't have "Jesus died for our sins" without "which means those who don't follow him aren't forgiven."

Besides which, the way to keep the baby and throw out the bathwater is simply to just dump your religion. That's what I did, and I kept all the good parts. I don't kill, steal, cheat on my wife, I work hard, I'm a good person, kind, non-violent, etc. But I no longer have to hold negative opinions about gay people, worry about good people going to hell for sins, etc.

The baby/bathwater example suggests that if people throw out religion because of the bad stuff, that the good stuff automatically goes with it. It doesn't, people don't start killing, stealing and otherwise being bad people when they stop believing. If that's what happened I might agree with you, but we don't see that.

 

[George-ananda]

I hear this a lot but I disagree because the 'bathwater' of religion is so often linked directly to the 'baby' parts. For example you can't have "Jesus died for our sins" without "which means those who don't follow him aren't forgiven."

That kind of dogma is what I was considering bathwater. Even the Pope thinks atheists can get to heaven.

Besides which, the way to keep the baby and throw out the bathwater is simply to just dump your religion. That's what I did, and I kept all the good parts. I don't kill, steal, cheat on my wife, I work hard, I'm a good person, kind, non-violent, etc. But I no longer have to hold negative opinions about gay people, worry about good people going to hell for sins, etc.

Nothing wrong with that. Maybe we agree and you did keep the baby and threw out the bathwater. Curious if you believe in God, an afterlife and Jesus' spirituality.

The baby/bathwater example suggests that if people throw out religion because of the bad stuff, that the good stuff automatically goes with it. It doesn't, people don't start killing, stealing and otherwise being bad people when they stop believing. If that's what happened I might agree with you, but we don't see that.

I never meant to imply people turn bad when they throw out the baby. But they might have in my opinion a less positive view of the universe and our existence. That it is all random and when we die that is it. More pessimistic in my opinion. People can keep God, Jesus' spirituality and afterlife without the bathwater.

 

[psychoslice]

I think spending all your life worrying about hell is the only hell, of course there isn't a hell, its one big lie to keep the people in check. Most are still like little children that have never grown up, and because of this they are easily manipulated and controlled by religion, or most of religion.

 

[Unification]

This guy wanders around Fenway Park trying to "save" people. He's there for every home Red Sox game...I've never seen anyone take one of his pamphlets but sometimes people take selfies with him.

He's technically correct in a way, albeit both indirectly and deceitfully. Follow a literal deity or choose eternal hell after physical death. That is the deceit.

The indirect way is that if any human doesn't follow a peaceful, truthful path... they are already in suffering(hell) in some kind of way or many ways. If someone began to follow a peaceful, truthful path.. they would be liberated and set free from suffering.

As we look around, and all around us... People are miserable, uncontent, depressed, have anxiety, unhappy, ridden with guilt, carrying burdens, worrying, living in fear, have low self esteem, feeling of suffocation, etc etc. People are already in hell and experiencing hell, and need to be liberated and set free from those mental chains. The exodus from suffering. Not by believing in a literal deity but by believing within oneself, believing in the power/energy within someone to overcome.

Hell is not a place. It's a conscious state of suffering.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

And people were burned in UK by courts secular also.

I'm interested in that. Do you have a link/source?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I saw on TV once a short play being shown for the benefit of religious children in US that was depicting their idea of hell (fear and pain etc). I thought it was pretty sick to show kids that, even if it was like that. I think it was Loius Theroux if I recall correctly. He had a program where a black woman coming out of chuch said "The white man is the devil" whilst white Theroux stood there; and also the black nationlists thought all whites should be killed, even their kids. Those are his kinda programs, weird things. He spends a lot of time filming in America.... haha.
What does that mean?

I like watching his stuff. He has a tendency to find strange topics, or out there people, and then kinda give them enough rope to hang themselves/tell their own story.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm interested in that. Do you have a link/source?

No. I heard it from Dermot MeCullock. Perhaps I should look it up. I think it was just common practice those days, not just one side rather than the otehr.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I like watching his stuff. He has a tendency to find strange topics, or out there people, and then kinda give them enough rope to hang themselves/tell their own story.

It's the stare you know. He just keeps the stare going, grinds them down.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm interested in that. Do you have a link/source?

This might help. First one I've looked at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition
Quote:
If they persisted in their heresy, however, Pope Gregory, finding it necessary to protect the Catholic community from infection, would have suspects handed over to civil authorities, since public heresy was a crime under civil law as well as Church law. The secular authorities would apply their own brands of punishment for civil disobedience which, at the time, included burning at the stake.[4]

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm interested in that. Do you have a link/source?

This is also interesting. it lines up with what bit I know and is always mroe involved than first thought. People are people I guess:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8334055.stm

In her paper, Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt, Jenny Gibbons notes that most witch-hunts took place where central authority had broken down, often in border areas "where rival Christian sects fought to impose their religious views on each other". It was partly for this reason that local secular courts meted out the harshest judgements.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It's the stare you know. He just keeps the stare going, grinds them down.

I think that's right. One thing he does really well is just kinda let the silence build sometimes. People seem to need to fill it, so they talk...lol

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This is also interesting. it lines up with what bit I know and is always mroe involved than first thought. People are people I guess:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8334055.stm

In her paper, Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt, Jenny Gibbons notes that most witch-hunts took place where central authority had broken down, often in border areas "where rival Christian sects fought to impose their religious views on each other". It was partly for this reason that local secular courts meted out the harshest judgements.

Thanks, that is an interesting article. I generally find BBC stuff is pretty well constructed.

Unfortunately, witch-hunts still persist. (I've posted about this before, so disregard if you've already heard it)
I lived in Papua New Guinea for a bit over a year, in a very remote area (even by PNG standards...lol)

Anyway, witch killings not only occur, but occur regularly. Primarily, they occur in areas of less efficient policing and control, which marries up with what you're saying. These areas often lack these controls due to their remoteness, and this same factor tends to play into difficulties with schooling, etc, in my experience.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/sorcery-and-sexism-in-papua-new-guinea/

Access to justice is complicated by the remoteness of many areas and village courts or forms of customary law often deal, or don’t, with problems. PNG may be on the way to improving legislation but this has not necessarily trickled down to those parts of the country where it is needed.

The UN has estimated that attacks occur “on a weekly basis.” PNG itself believes that 150 people are killed each year in just one of its 20 provinces as a result of sorcery accusations.

 

[Demonslayer]

Nothing wrong with that. Maybe we agree and you did keep the baby and threw out the bathwater.

In a way I suppose. When I dumped religion I kept all the good positive things about myself and let go of all the negative things religion was doing to me.

But I didn't keep any of the actual religion...perhaps not even intentionally. I just simply cannot believe in the things required. It would be nice, for example, to believe when I died I'm going to a wonderful place where all my friends and family will live in peace and harmony for all eternity...but I can't.

Curious if you believe in God, an afterlife and Jesus' spirituality.

No, no, and Jesus is a nice story and some positive lessons can be taken from the Jesus character, but no I don't believe Jesus is alive somewhere waiting to return or anything like that.

I never meant to imply people turn bad when they throw out the baby. But they might have in my opinion a less positive view of the universe and our existence. That it is all random and when we die that is it. More pessimistic in my opinion.

That is indeed your opinion, and on the surface I get it. But what happened to me is, when I stopped believing in afterlife/heaven/hell I actually had a much more positive and optimistic view. Growing up worrying about burning and hell and who wouldn't make it to heaven, and the fact that God sent some people to eternal torturous damnation...it all seemed so very serious and grave. Once I realized we are not bound by such fate, my outlook became much lighter and more universal. We are all brothers and sisters, we are all the same, and we all have one life to live together. 2/3rds of us aren't going to burn in torment like I was taught growing up. We're part of the wonderful universe. I felt heavy under religion, I feel much lighter without it.

People can keep God, Jesus' spirituality and afterlife without the bathwater.

I suppose they can, but it's very tricky. Central to the Jesus story is heaven and hell. I would say the majority of people who call themselves Christian believe in heaven and hell, and in my eyes that's a very heavy burden to live with.

If you want to go so far as to say you're just keeping the most general, figurative ideas of Jesus...just being nice to others, living a good life etc, that's fine I suppose. But I can get those same kinds of lessons from Yoda or nearly any Pixar movie, without all the baggage that come attached to mainstream religious belief.