What if People aren't sent to Hell because of their Religion

[Demonslayer]

The indirect way is that if any human doesn't follow a peaceful, truthful path... they are already in suffering(hell) in some kind of way or many ways. If someone began to follow a peaceful, truthful path.. they would be liberated and set free from suffering.

As we look around, and all around us... People are miserable, uncontent, depressed, have anxiety, unhappy, ridden with guilt, carrying burdens, worrying, living in fear, have low self esteem, feeling of suffocation, etc etc. People are already in hell and experiencing hell, and need to be liberated and set free from those mental chains. The exodus from suffering. Not by believing in a literal deity but by believing within oneself, believing in the power/energy within someone to overcome.

Hell is not a place. It's a conscious state of suffering.

Sure, I can agree with all of this. Of course "hell" is a symbolic statement of the results we get when we live self destructively, just like "demons" are the things in our lives that threaten to send us to hell, like a drinking problem or the urge to be unfaithful to your spouse.

But that's not the kind of hell this dude that walks around Fenway is talking about LOL.

 

[George-ananda]

In a way I suppose. When I dumped religion I kept all the good positive things about myself and let go of all the negative things religion was doing to me.

But I didn't keep any of the actual religion...perhaps not even intentionally. I just simply cannot believe in the things required. It would be nice, for example, to believe when I died I'm going to a wonderful place where all my friends and family will live in peace and harmony for all eternity...but I can't.



No, no, and Jesus is a nice story and some positive lessons can be taken from the Jesus character, but no I don't believe Jesus is alive somewhere waiting to return or anything like that.



That is indeed your opinion, and on the surface I get it. But what happened to me is, when I stopped believing in afterlife/heaven/hell I actually had a much more positive and optimistic view. Growing up worrying about burning and hell and who wouldn't make it to heaven, and the fact that God sent some people to eternal torturous damnation...it all seemed so very serious and grave. Once I realized we are not bound by such fate, my outlook became much lighter and more universal. We are all brothers and sisters, we are all the same, and we all have one life to live together. 2/3rds of us aren't going to burn in torment like I was taught growing up. We're part of the wonderful universe. I felt heavy under religion, I feel much lighter without it.



I suppose they can, but it's very tricky. Central to the Jesus story is heaven and hell. I would say the majority of people who call themselves Christian believe in heaven and hell, and in my eyes that's a very heavy burden to live with.

If you want to go so far as to say you're just keeping the most general, figurative ideas of Jesus...just being nice to others, living a good life etc, that's fine I suppose. But I can get those same kinds of lessons from Yoda or nearly any Pixar movie, without all the baggage that come attached to mainstream religious belief.

OK, I didn't realize you are an atheist when I posted. Seems like you were heavily influenced by old time religion. I certainly believe in an afterlife for reasons that have nothing to do with religion; my study of things paranormal is the reason. I personally find an afterlife belief to be objectively (paranormal evidence) and subjectively better. I believe in an afterlife for a time in a heaven like plane and eventual reincarnation until final Liberation. It is optimistic to me to think my deceased loved ones are continuing on in a positive environment and that all the internal spiritual progress I make in this life is not wiped out by death. To me, it is a more joyous view of the universe. It just sounds like you are comparing 'old time Christian religion' versus atheism and the answer might be none of the above.

My original point is that since Jesus is such an important figure to so many that we can keep his positive teachings of compassion, brotherly love, golden rule, afterlife, etc. and dispense with the bathwater (dogma like damnation and atoning death). This is what I meant by keeping the baby and throwing out the bathwater.

 

[Demonslayer]

OK, I didn't realize you are an atheist when I posted. Seems like you were heavily influenced by old time religion.

Yes, I was raised in a very Catholic family with hellfire and damnation at the forefront of my religious teaching.

But to be honest, I don't think I ever really believed it. Even from the youngest age I remember thinking it was all pretty unlikely. My parents would tell me things like, if I fell and cut myself it was God punishing me for something I had done. I remember even then understanding life didn't work that way....people didn't get rewards for every good thing and punishments for every bad thing.

It is optimistic to me to think my deceased loved ones are continuing on in a positive environment and that all the internal spiritual progress I make in this life is not wiped out by death.

As I said before, I would love to join you and believe in these things. I simply can't. It's like once you stop believing in things you can never go back. I can no more believe that my deceased loved ones are happily frolicking around somewhere than I can believe tomorrow everyone on Earth will stop fighting and we will have world peace. I would love to believe both...both are as you say very positive, happy sorts of ideas...yet both in my eyes are hopelessly naive and merely wishful thinking.

until final Liberation

Just a follow up question on that...after all the reincarnation cycles what is "final Liberation" in your view?

My original point is that since Jesus is such an important figure to so many that we can keep his positive teachings of compassion, brotherly love, golden rule, afterlife, etc. and dispense with the bathwater (dogma like damnation and atoning death). This is what I meant by keeping the baby and throwing out the bathwater.

I get it, and I can agree right up to the afterlife part. Certainly I'm in favor of...if someone so chooses to use the Jesus framework...keeping ideas of compassion, brotherly love and the golden rule. Other Jesus-y lessions like love thy enemy and turn the other cheek are also babies we can save from the bathwater.

The afterlife, for me though, is bathwater, not baby. The reason is for every one person like you who thinks the afterlife is a happy cycle of heaven, reincarnation, heaven, and then presumably something final that is not hell...for each of you we have 10 folks who preach the damnation bit. I can' t see how that fits with a positive worldview. Even if one believes that they themselves are saved, I find it an extremely sad, maudlin way to go through life, with ideas that many people are damned to eternal torture.

The rest I can agree with you for the most part. If someone so chooses to throw out the dogma of hell, damnation and all of that, and they choose to find inspiration in the positive stories of Jesus, that's fine. I just don't think that happens very often though. Most Christians (just using the Christian example because that's the Jesus framework we've been discussing) are literalists when it comes to "Jesus died for our sins" and I think what you're talking about...dumping the damnation dogma...requires the rejection of the literal Biblical teachings regarding the purpose of Jesus' death as it is related to human salvation. Without the threat of damnation, Jesus' sacrfice becomes meaningless, and the whole story from a literal standpoint unravels. Too many Christians can't accept that and so the damnation bit for the most part is kept.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I guess just depends on the person and their views of Hell. To me Heaven and Hell are a state of being whether here or the after life. Heaven to me is having the most peaceful time and feeling and Hell is reverse obviously. So even here on earth you could be in your hell or heaven in my thinking of it all. I don't think it's just in the after life. Here you could be in your Hell because of punishing you from previous lives or maybe you have some really harsh lessons to learn and it seems like Hell.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes, I was raised in a very Catholic family with hellfire and damnation at the forefront of my religious teaching.

But to be honest, I don't think I ever really believed it. Even from the youngest age I remember thinking it was all pretty unlikely. My parents would tell me things like, if I fell and cut myself it was God punishing me for something I had done. I remember even then understanding life didn't work that way....people didn't get rewards for every good thing and punishments for every bad thing.

I was also raised Catholic; mass every Sunday; Catholic School; Catechism class; etc. But for some reason with me all that does not haunt me in the least.

As I said before, I would love to join you and believe in these things. I simply can't. It's like once you stop believing in things you can never go back. I can no more believe that my deceased loved ones are happily frolicking around somewhere than I can believe tomorrow everyone on Earth will stop fighting and we will have world peace. I would love to believe both...both are as you say very positive, happy sorts of ideas...yet both in my eyes are hopelessly naive and merely wishful thinking.

The 'world peace' and 'afterlife' thing I see as different subjects. My belief in the afterlife does not come from religion but from paranormal evidence. It is not a 'happy faith' thing but my best objective position on the evidence.

Just a follow up question on that...after all the reincarnation cycles what is "final Liberation" in your view?

All consciousness is ultimately One/God/Brahman and in our limited state we are in the illusion of separate egos. In the end we will all One/God/Brahman Realize.

The afterlife, for me though, is bathwater, not baby. The reason is for every one person like you who thinks the afterlife is a happy cycle of heaven, reincarnation, heaven, and then presumably something final that is not hell...for each of you we have 10 folks who preach the damnation bit. I can' t see how that fits with a positive worldview. Even if one believes that they themselves are saved, I find it an extremely sad, maudlin way to go through life, with ideas that many people are damned to eternal torture.

The opinions of people swimming in the bathwater are not what is relevant to me. It has no effect on what IS true. I'll just attempt to improve their way of seeing things.

The rest I can agree with you for the most part. If someone so chooses to throw out the dogma of hell, damnation and all of that, and they choose to find inspiration in the positive stories of Jesus, that's fine. I just don't think that happens very often though. Most Christians (just using the Christian example because that's the Jesus framework we've been discussing) are literalists when it comes to "Jesus died for our sins" and I think what you're talking about...dumping the damnation dogma...requires the rejection of the literal Biblical teachings regarding the purpose of Jesus' death as it is related to human salvation. Without the threat of damnation, Jesus' sacrfice becomes meaningless, and the whole story from a literal standpoint unravels. Too many Christians can't accept that and so the damnation bit for the most part is kept.

Again, the position of people swimming in the bathwater does not effect my view of reality. I guess I'm trying to save Jesus from drowning in the bathwater.