What if we accepted each others Religion?

[loverofhumanity]

Curious, do you suppose that the Buddhist or Hindu philosophy that predates Baha’u’llah is irrelevant/outdated? That’s quite literally what you are saying, correct?

Definitely not. The Dhammapada, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Four Noble Truths, the Bhagavad-Gita and others we Baha’is read from these scriptures in our Houses of Worship all over the world. Also things like mindfulness and meditation are also teachings which come from these religions and are used in counselling and mental illness. There is so much we can learn if we free our minds from prejudice towards different faiths. All are true with none superior to the other.

Baha’u’llah explained that the different Avatars or Messengers are like the sun and that in relation to the days of the week, their names differ but it’s still the same one sun which appears each day of the week.

 

[CG Didymus]

If people can understand that there is a Manifestation of God for each age, then we can have understanding between religions that all are true and only the social teachings have been adapted to suit the needs of the time.

Okay, name the different ages you know of and tell me who was the manifestation for that age. After we establish that, we can look at the different social teachings and see how they suited the times.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, name the different ages you know of and tell me who was the manifestation for that age. After we establish that, we can look at the different social teachings and see how they suited the times.

There are too many laws to mention but each Manifestation oversaw the collective evolution of humanity and I doubt we can find records for all of them. But basically it was to usher in different stages of humanity’s development and advancement. Each different Manifestation taught different aspects of truth.

Just to give a very basic example Christ nurtured the individual primarily but after Him Muhammad expanded on this by creating the ummah or society with laws and a constitution uniting the warring tribes of the Arabian Peninsula into a nation. As nations were established over the centuries, Baha’u’llah appeared with laws and teachings for world unity expanding on the national vision of Muhammad.

The laws of Moses and Muhammad were harsh due to the desert environment. No jails, police, courts or judges laws were meant to be severe to act as deterrents. With the latest Manifestation we have things like a justice and corrective system. Also now with refrigeration there are no strict dietary laws. Marriage is another law. The Manifestations were well aware of traditions that had been passed down generations not through the Holy Books and so did not try and force certain laws on people except gradually. So in the Quran it really teaches monogamy saying you can have more wives if you can be just to them all. Slavery is another tradition that the Manifestations gradually weaned humanity off with it being forbidden by Baha’u’llah.

Hinduism as you know is a huge collection of beliefs so there would be too many to go into much detail. But the sect that worships Krishna either might not eat meat and are vegetarian but believe He loved milk. As far as Buddha not to kill or steal and non violence like with Ahimsa in Hinduism. The Ten Commandments of Moses.

Many of these laws we still use today but laws such as crucifixion and stoning for adultery and or cutting off the arm of a thief have ceased to be used.

In this age we need teachings to help the races, religions and nations get along with each other as you can see the situation is descending into wars because we are using the age old identities of us vs them instead of accepting our onenness. Hope this helps but it is far from adequate.

 

[Muffled]

A statement is not evidence.

I believe his written statements are evidence of what he doesn't know.

 

[Muffled]

Many many people and groups of people on this planet already accept other religions and non-religions AS IS.

I believe if you mean by As IS that we accept that many religions have falsehoods and undependable sources, then you would be right.

 

[firedragon]

I believe his written statements are evidence of what he doesn't know.

Blind belief. Nice.

 

[ppp]

I usually agree with what they wrote, but not always. I definitely agree with what Shoghi Effendi wrote regarding sexual issues.

Why?

 

[CG Didymus]

The reason God sent Baha'u'llah is because His laws are relevant for our day and age and our problems.

Which means that the teachings of the older religions are no longer relevant and suited for today. Right?

Curious, do you suppose that the Buddhist or Hindu philosophy that predates Baha’u’llah is irrelevant/outdated? That’s quite literally what you are saying, correct?

Yes, that is exactly what I think the Baha'is are saying.

Definitely not. The Dhammapada, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Four Noble Truths, the Bhagavad-Gita and others we Baha’is read from these scriptures in our Houses of Worship all over the world.

But wait? They are still relevant and important for today? Or...

The Buddha was a Manifestation of God, like Christ, but His followers do not possess His authentic writings.​

Shoghi Effendi, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 21​

So, Baha'is read these Buddhist Scriptures in Baha'is Houses of Worship, but your Guardian of the Baha'i Faith says that Buddhist don't "possess" Buddha's authentic writings?

Please tell me... How do you explain that?

Never mind, I think I can figure it out. Baha'is want to sound as if they believe in and accept all the other religions and their Scriptures. However, in reality, they don't.

And what's so wrong about admitting that? And just say, "No, those teachings aren't true. People believed in them, and those teachings did a lot of people a lot of good. But some of the Buddhists teachings and beliefs, according to the Baha'i Faith, just aren't true.

I would respect the Baha'is much more if they could be honest, instead of trying to be everything to everybody.

 

[CG Didymus]

If people can understand that there is a Manifestation of God for each age,

That's you. That's your claim.

Okay, name the different ages you know of and tell me who was the manifestation for that age.

So now, name the different ages and who was the manifestation for that age.

Just to give a very basic example Christ nurtured the individual primarily but after Him Muhammad expanded on this by creating the ummah or society with laws and a constitution uniting the warring tribes of the Arabian Peninsula into a nation. As nations were established over the centuries, Baha’u’llah appeared with laws and teachings for world unity expanding on the national vision of Muhammad.

Ah yes, the progression from family to tribe to nation state and now a world community. Too bad I don't believe it.

Again I ask, how do you explain the great empires of the past? All of which had religions. And most of the religions of those empires Baha'is don't even mention, because they aren't thought of as being "true" religions. Yet, they united a people... in a bunch of false beliefs.

The laws of Moses and Muhammad were harsh due to the desert environment. No jails, police, courts or judges laws were meant to be severe to act as deterrents.

I guess all this is an attempt to show how "social laws" changed?

As if the Jews and Muslims never lived in cities. I'm not sure, but I think there were prisons, people doing the policing, courts and judges. Sorry, but this sounds like something you made up and not something that came from the Baha'i writings. But... just in case it did... can you quote the passages in the Baha'i writings that support your claim?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why?

Why do I need a reason to agree?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which means that the teachings of the older religions are no longer relevant and suited for today. Right?

The social teachings are no longer relevant but the spiritual teachings will always be relevant.

Matthew 24:35. ESV Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

 

[ppp]

I definitely agree with what Shoghi Effendi wrote regarding sexual issues.

Why do you definitely agree with what Shoghi Effendi wrote regarding sexual issues?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

In this age we need teachings to help the races, religions and nations get along with each other

We have that. It's summarized in the affirmations of humanism. Here's your answer, and it comes from outside of religion. This is a recipe for peace, tolerance, and improvement of the human condition. Your scriptures don't rise to this. Nobody's do. Can you find fault with this other than that it refers to no gods, which I consider an improvement over scripture, not a deficiency?:

Affirmations of Humanism​

A Statement of Principles​

Drafted by Paul Kurtz​

We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

The reason God sent Baha'u'llah is because His laws are relevant for our day and age and our problems.

I don't find relevance there - certainly nothing that compares with what you just read in those 473 words.

World peace is needed now

You have no answers, just flowery exhortations, and most is theological referring to gods and piety. As I said, there are no answers there. If you think otherwise, you're gaslighting yourself. Religions have had millennia to bring the world together and don't, including yours. The beginning of a solution is to recognize that and look elsewhere.

unity between religions

Religions only fragment as they bud off new religions and denominations that find everybody else's religion incorrect, including yours, which essentially declares older teachings incomplete and needing updating. Of course, your messenger's updates are pretty old and dusty themselves now. The affirmations above are relevant to today.

If people can understand that there is a Manifestation of God for each age, then we can have understanding between religions that all are true and only the social teachings have been adapted to suit the needs of the time.

And this is in part how they fragment.

Your messenger is irrelevant to the needs of the present age, which are principally with advancing authoritarianism and environmental despoilation with climate change being the greatest of those threats.

You could add war to that. Presently, we have two religions at war and a dictator invading a democracy - the two factions disavowed with this:

"We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others."

 

[Ostronomos]

We have that. It's summarized in the affirmations of humanism. Here's your answer, and it comes from outside of religion. This is a recipe for peace, tolerance, and improvement of the human condition. Your scriptures don't rise to this. Nobody's do. Can you find fault with this other than that it refers to no gods, which I consider an improvement over scripture, not a deficiency?:

Affirmations of Humanism​

A Statement of Principles​

Drafted by Paul Kurtz​

We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.



I don't find relevance there - certainly nothing that compares with what you just read in those 473 words.

You have no answers, just flowery exhortations, and most is theological referring to gods and piety. As I said, there are no answers there. If you think otherwise, you're gaslighting yourself. Religions have had millennia to bring the world together and don't, including yours. The beginning of a solution is to recognize that and look elsewhere.

Yet religions are free. The only reason they have not united humanity thus far is because not all humanity knows that the teachings of an after-life are absolute truth.

And since the after-life is a fact, science can only aim to support it using reason and logic.

Religions only fragment as they bud off new religions and denominations that find everybody else's religion incorrect, including yours, which essentially declares older teachings incomplete and needing updating. Of course, your messenger's updates are pretty old and dusty themselves now. The affirmations above are relevant to today.

Read Christopher Langan's Metareligion as the Human Singularity and you will come to understand what makes the teachings of religion so authentic.

Religion is the answer to humanity's problems. It simply needs science to complement it. This is due to the fact that God is real and those of us who are aware of this fact seek to prove it through science and philosophy.

And this is in part how they fragment.

Your messenger is irrelevant to the needs of the present age, which are principally with advancing authoritarianism and environmental despoilation with climate change being the greatest of those threats.

You could add war to that. Presently, we have two religions at war and a dictator invading a democracy - the two factions disavowed with this:

"We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others."

If you believe that God should remain divorced from society and culture then you're part of the problem. As I speak as an authority on the subject of God, I can testify.

I was pondering about ominpotence and what a God must "experience" (perhaps this word is too limited to describe it). If the Almighty One existed what's to stop Him from disguising Himself as a human and existing among us? Is it so uncharacteristic of Omnipotence to assume the form of man, with all our flaws? It does not appear that belief in God is strictly motivated by desire, some people claim it can be a rational and clear-cut understanding. If you wish to contribute, I don't want an answer from the bottom of your heart or any of that. I prefer a rational, thought-out, genius-like intellectual type response.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Yet religions are free. The only reason they have not united humanity thus far is because not all humanity knows that the teachings of an after-life are absolute truth ... Religion is the answer to humanity's problems.

You're another one who hasn't noticed that religions are divisive and don't bring peace. How many more millennia do you need to see them failing at that to recognize that if there are answers, they don't come from the religions?

the after-life is a fact

No, it's not. If there is an afterlife, you cannot do not know that now.

And even if you were correct, so what if we don't know it now? That is why I don't dwell on such things as gods and afterlives.

I speak as an authority on the subject of God

There is no such thing as an authority on any potential deity. If one or more exist, you also don't and can't know that or anything about such entities.

I realize that you like to assert otherwise and see yourself as being in possession of arcane knowledge not known to others, but there is no reason to believe that you are correct. Many others say similar things, and they don't agree with one another. They describe different gods, for example. As I indicated, if there's one in my future, I can wait until then to learn that and explore the significance of it.

I don't see where religion is helpful at all. The religious Abrahamists that I most respect are almost unaffected by their god belief. Apart from saying that they have a god belief and perhaps having a social structure that includes a religious community (i.e., they go to church when others are sleeping in or going out for breakfast, and they likely give money to the church, but unlike the poor people surrounding me here in Mexico, who give money that they could use on their families to their church instead, these people are all professionals and can afford to tithe), they are indistinguishable from atheistic humanists, so I call them theistic humanists.

But the more religion one adds to that, the worse it is for him and his neighbors. The more zealous they are about their faith, the more they deviate from those humanistic principles outlined above and the more apparent harm comes from that. People become progressively less moral and wise the more they embrace faith and received morals in place of knowledge and empathy. They do things like what the Christians are doing to their neighbors in the States. They're primed to believe other ideas by faith such as flat earthers, and those who consider election integrity, Covid and Covid vaccine, and climate warming hoaxes because somebody said so, and so they're more likely to vote for people like Trump and to embrace the bigotries of their religions than the theistic humanists to whom I referred.

Religion like that are a problem, not a solution.

If you believe that God should remain divorced from society and culture then you're part of the problem.

Obviously, I see it exactly the opposite than you do. YOU'RE part of the problem, and the answers are right in front of you, but you don't see them because you're mesmerized by notions of gods and look that way for answers that never come.

"Religion. It's given hope in a world torn apart by religion." - Jon Stewart

 

[viole]

Firstly I am only referring to the major religions.

Next I’m speaking of accepting the Founder and the spiritual teachings such as virtues and prayer etc not the laws. The administration of each faith would remain.

So Christians would accept Buddha and Muhammad, Buddhists would accept Christ and Baha’is etc

And instead of segregating ourselves in our own churches, pagodas, temples and synagogues, we would visit each others places of worship to meditate and pray together. We Baha’is already do this and read from all the sacred scriptures of each religion in all our services.

In this way we can celebrate our diversity. I think in many places this is happening and also interfaith breaking down barriers. I myself I accept all the major religions and their Founders and Holy Books and find this enriches me greatly. So I read something Christ or Buddha said and it’s a great experience. Christ says to love and Buddha says to fight hate with love and that the greatest of all conquerors is he who conquers his own self. So much wisdom from all these faiths. Why should we deprive ourselves.? If you have any favourite verses please feel most welcome to share them.

The problem, of course, is that those gods cannot all be true. at the same time. Their theologies are mutually exclusive.

So, it comes without saying that a Christian must believe that all other religions are delusions. On account of the metaphysical exclusivity that Christians claim. And then you have the different claims. Like some Hindus saying that humanity is divided in casts at birth, while Christians claiming humans are all equal at birth. Clearly contradicting claims.

So, that is like asking an astronomer to go visit and pay respect for a temple that promotes astrology. Only an insane astronomer could do that without laughing.

But atheists can afford that. I, for instance, pay the exact same amount of intellectual respect to all religious beliefs.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you definitely agree with what Shoghi Effendi wrote regarding sexual issues?

I already answered that. I said "Why do I need a reason to agree?"

BTW, I agreed with him about sexual issues long before I ever knew about the Baha'i Faith.

 

[ppp]

I already answered that. I said "Why do I need a reason to agree?"

I don't know that you do. Most people don't hold opinions without at least some awareness of why they hold those opinions. Most people are aware of the contents of their own thoughts. Perhaps you don't

BTW, I agreed with him about sexual issues long before I ever knew about the Baha'i Faith.

Do you know why you held the opinions that you did then?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know that you do. Most people don't hold opinions without at least some awareness of why they hold those opinions. Most people are aware of the contents of their own thoughts. Perhaps you don't

I know why I hold those opinions about sex.
I hold them because that is what my religion teaches, and the same is also taught by Christianity and Islam.
I also hold them because I have an innate sense of morality. Where that comes from I do not know.

Do you know why you held the opinions that you did then?

I do not know why I held those opinions back then since I was not raised in any religion, but I surmise I must have had an innate sense of morality, so I always knew that sex out of wedlock was wrong. I have never ever been sorry that I held to that sense of morality and thus I never had sex with any man except my late husband. That is one of the best decisions I ever made and I am very happy with it to this day. Only later did I come to realize that my innate sense of morality was congruent with the Baha'i laws, confirming that I was right all along.

 

[ppp]

I know why I hold those opinions about sex.
I hold them because that is what my religion teaches, and the same is also taught by Christianity and Islam.
I also hold them because I have an innate sense of morality. Where that comes from I do not know.

Why do you think that you have an innate sense of morality? I am not claiming that you don't. I am asking why you think that you do? Is it just because your religion tell you so? Or have you given any thought on your own?