What if we accepted each others Religion?

[loverofhumanity]

With all due respect, not really.

By accepting who Baha'is believe is the promised messiah they have accepted the religion called the Baha'i Faith.
Those who have not accepted who Baha'is believe is the promised messiah are in fact the ones that have rejected the Baha'i Faith.

So a Christian rejects who Baha'is believe is the return of Christ when He returns is still a Christian, since he believes in Jesus Christ.
If that Christian believed that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ he would be a Baha'i.

Yes I see your point.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This and the previous post show that you are not even attempting to accept other people's religions, or even to respect them.

So much for your professed goal of mutual acceptance between religions, then.

What you are truly proposing is that everyone should accept a new Messiah to come, even if that makes no sense whatsoever to their own beliefs, creeds and religions.

That would be fair enough in itself - even though most people are not lacking in opportunity to expect a new Messiah.

But you should not use false pretense. You are not interested in accepting other people's religions; you are instead trying to present them as flawed because they won't point towards yours.

Untrue. The religions can still accept the validity of each others spiritual teachings . There are different paths to unity. Ours is one but not the only one. Lessening prejudice and having more tolerance between the faiths can be achieved through learning about each others religion .

 

[Rival]

Untrue. The religions can still accept the validity of each others spiritual teachings . There are different paths to unity. Ours is one but not the only one. Lessening prejudice and having more tolerance between the faiths can be achieved through learning about each others religion .

What is a spiritual teaching?

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. Perhaps that's a form of intolerance - an intolerance of intolerance. There's a name for that, Popper's Paradox: "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper describes the paradox as arising from the seemingly self-contradictory idea that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance."

There is no intolerance.

intolerance: unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own.
intolerance means - Google Search

There is only a Baha'i law that states that marriage sex is only allowable between a man and a woman he is married to.

From the Book of Laws, which is the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith:

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

That law only pertains to Baha'is, not to the society at large, and nobody is imposing it on anyone, as it is a choice for a person to become a Baha'i.

I disagree. I think that you limit bigotry to feelings of hatred. There is also something that can be called cold bigotry, which can be well-meaning but misinformed, such as the idea that women are happier without an education and home raising children. That idea might be sincerely believed and constructively offered, but it's still bigotry.

By definition, bigotry is not hatred, although it 'could' lead to hatred, but not necessarily.

Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
bigotry means - Google Search

Bigotry: the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life:
bigotry

That describes Abrahamic homophobia to me.

But not everyone in an Abrahamic religion is homophobic.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT).
Homophobia - Wikipedia

OK. What you are saying is that not all believers accept the description of unbelievers that the scriptures offer. I agree. The bigots are the ones who accept the message, and there are plenty of them, albeit they generally get it indirectly from their clergy, who like to marginalize and demonize atheists and atheism.

Why do you call those Christians who demonize atheists and atheism bigots?

bigot
a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
bigot def - Google Search

You promulgate a homophobic message. You believe and teach that your god disapproves of homosexuals.

I do not promulgate a homophobic message. You are taking one Baha'i law and making it into dislike of or prejudice against gay people, but it isn't.

homophobic: having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
homophobic means - Google Search

God disapproves of ANY sexual behavior out of wedlock, whether it is between heterosexuals or homosexuals.
Bahá’í law restricts permissible sexual intercourse to a man and the woman to whom he is married because, according to Baha'u'llah, the primary purpose of marriage is to rear children, and the family is the bedrock of society.

That's a good god, right - one who is just and loving and fair, right?

Yes it is a good God, one who is just and loving and fair, because people are given a choice. They do not have to choose the Baha'i Faith or any other religion.

Your objection is that you don't feel hatred for homosexuals and resent being included with those who do. I don't see how you have much choice if you don't disavow at least this part of your religious dicta, and though I would love it if you did, I don't expect you to do that just to be separated from the homophobia your faith teaches.

The problem is that you are conflating one Baha'i law with hatred of homosexuals, and such is not the case. Would you say that God hates all people who have sex out of wedlock, most of whom are heterosexuals?

My faith does not teach homophobia. It teaches that we are to love everyone, as God does.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

OK. But you also believe that they are unnatural and in defiance of the laws of a good god, do you not? That probably creates a bit of cognitive dissonance for you. You want to love homosexuals and feel no malice for them, but your god says they're sinners (or whatever the Baha'i equivalent of that language is), so you aren't free to disagree like unbelievers who feel just like you do.

Admittedly, I do believe it is unnatural, but they are not in defiance of God's laws unless they belong to a religion that has that law.

It creates no cognitive dissonance because I can separate a person from his or her sexual behavior, and it is not my job to judge anyone's behavior except my own. The sexual behavior of other people is none of my business.

God says we are all sinners, and homosexuality is just one behavior that can be considered a sin. Fornication is no different, it is a sin.

Thats intolerance to you? I think you might be misunderstanding the definition you cited. Accept has two meanings, just like respect, one weaker and one stronger. Accept can mean to embrace, like accepting Jesus into one's heart, but it can also mean forbearance, which means to accept the legitimacy of others holding opinions with which one disagrees and not act against them.

intolerance: unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own.
intolerance means - Google Search

Tolerance (not intolerance) can also mean forbearance, which means to accept the legitimacy of others holding opinions with which one disagrees and not act against them. I am not intolerant since I have tolerance.

tolerate

• allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.
• accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance.

what does tolerate mean - Google Search

 

[loverofhumanity]

What is a spiritual teaching?

By spiritual teachings I mean things like the virtues. Things that focus on developing a virtuous character.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What can religions add that makes Humanism more effective? Use facts.

Since you acknowldge humanism is good, why not work with that as the core unifying message? It has the advantage of not including religious assumptions and bias, so superior in that respect.

Yet you express your spiritual violence (as Krishnamurti would phrase it) and contribute to division yourself. I would think your approach is better if you don't assert your religion is uniquely virtuous and advantageous. It clearly lacks the foundation to be influential in its ideals and hopes.

People. If you want to change the world or make it better then you need to a lot of people on board and billions have a deep religious conviction. Unity I believe is essential if we are to have peace but unity in diversity. No one group alone has the ability to bring unity.

 

[Rival]

By spiritual teachings I mean things like the virtues. Things that focus on developing a virtuous character.

The Stoics have this, though. I see no need for religion, here.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

By spiritual teachings I mean things like the virtues. Things that focus on developing a virtuous character.

I can appreciate that -- I'm very big on the virtues. But while religions usually have an element of ethics and virtue (there are exceptions to this) we also have non-religious philosophies that do this too, such as Confucianism.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I can appreciate that -- I'm very big on the virtues. But while religions usually have an element of ethics and virtue (there are exceptions to this) we also have non-religious philosophies that do this too, such as Confucianism.

Everything helps. There will always be diversity. It is humanity’s strength to be able to see things from different perspectives.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is an example of the Baha'i fooling themselves, suggesting that their movement is making an appreciable difference and will eventually bring the world together doing what they do.

It might not be making an appreciable difference NOW, but nobody knows what the future holds, nobody but God.

Platitudes like we are all one people are as effete as telling people to love one or love enemies or treat them as you would be treated. Nobody does those things because somebody recommended or commanded it.

Of course they don't do them for that reason. It as to come from within a person.

And the Baha'i are far from the only world community bringing people together and making a difference. How about Amnesty International, or Doctors Without Borders, or Greenpeace, or the United Nations. All of these people are doing more that patting themselves on the back while singing kumbaya.

Of course there are many groups making a difference. Who ever said the Baha'is think they are 'the only ones' making a difference?

The Baha'i have no solutions.

There are solutions embedded in the Baha'i Writings, and if those were applied it would make a difference.

Like the other religions, they just point at these problems and claim that it means that there is a need for them.

So you don't think there are any problems in the world?

You want to imply that you can fix them, but you can't.

We are certainly not going to fix these problems single-handedly. It takes many people working together to fix them and thus far the Baha'i Faith does not have that many people.

The Jehovah's Witnesses will rescue you from the world. The Christians seem to welcome such problems as harbingers of prophecy coming to fruition. And all say that they will be hated, and that they predicted that they would be hated and that the world is a troubled place as if that affirms anything about them.

You are free to believe that if you want to, as are the JWs and the Christians, but they have no plans to fix anything that is wrong in the world because they either believe this world will be completely destroyed or they are waiting for Jesus to return and fix everything.

That reminds me of a former Christian coworker I had for about 10 years. She and I and another Christian got in an office discussion and she said that there is no point trying to fix anything like racial prejudice because nothing will be fixed until Jesus returns. My other Christian coworker disagreed with her as he is more of a liberal.

Here you are fooling yourselves again. You create a false dichotomy and take credit for getting along with like-minded people while blaming the rest for the world's troubles while doing nothing to mitigate them.

I agree that the Baha'is should not take credit for getting along with like-minded people.
However, the Baha'is are working to mitigate the world's troubles.

We can all do the same. My community is a bunch of retired expats living among Mexican nationals, and we all get along even as the cartels are shooting one another up and corrupt politicians are stealing. Why is it that can we all get along but YOUR world outside our community continues promoting homophobia and disparaging other religions? We're such good people, we expats. Live and let live we say, and try to brighten up somebody's day. Why can't everybody just follow our example? If they did, the world would be as one.

I get your point and it is well taken, except for the part about promoting homophobia and disparaging other religions.
Suffice to say not all Baha'is are the same and we are not all so single-focused on the Baha'i Faith being 'the only solution' to all the world's problems.

 

[CG Didymus]

The religions can still accept the validity of each others spiritual teachings . There are different paths to unity. Ours is one but not the only one. Lessening prejudice and having more tolerance between the faiths can be achieved through learning about each others religion .

So, what is the "validity" that Baha'is accept? I've asked this before... What religions or sects of a religion do Baha'is believe have the truth, teach the truth and practice the truth?

 

[sayak83]

Ubetcha.

Excellent. That is the spirit. Same goes for me joining your ceremonies too

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, what is the "validity" that Baha'is accept? I've asked this before... What religions or sects of a religion do Baha'is believe have the truth, teach the truth and practice the truth?

Well since recorded history we accept Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
As to sects with Hinduism it would be Vashnavism which believes in Krishna and the Bhagavad-Gita. With Buddhism there are many aspects of Theravada, Mayahana and the Pure Land sect which Baha’is believe. Zoroaster I’m not sure. Islam we believe that Shiah was the correct sect. Christianity - Catholicism.

Before recorded history there were always Manifestations but we have no record. Some ancient Writings may have been revealed by a Manifestation but His Name lost. So when we come across writings which agree with the Manifestations it is highly likely there was a Manifestation but lost in time.

Thus there have been many holy Manifestations of God. One thousand years ago, two hundred thousand years ago, one million years ago the bounty of God was flowing, the radiance of God was shining, the dominion of God was existing. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 108)

 

[McBell]

Well since recorded history we accept Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
As to sects with Hinduism it would be Vashnavism which believes in Krishna and the Bhagavad-Gita. With Buddhism there are many aspects of Theravada, Mayahana and the Pure Land sect which Baha’is believe. Zoroaster I’m not sure. Islam we believe that Shiah was the correct sect. Christianity - Catholicism.

Before recorded history there were always Manifestations but we have no record. Some ancient Writings may have been revealed by a Manifestation but His Name lost. So when we come across writings which agree with the Manifestations it is highly likely there was a Manifestation but lost in time.

Thus there have been many holy Manifestations of God. One thousand years ago, two hundred thousand years ago, one million years ago the bounty of God was flowing, the radiance of God was shining, the dominion of God was existing. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 108)

Who is the current Manifestation?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Who is the current Manifestation?

Baha’is believe it to be Baha’u’llah. But He will not be the last. In future Manifestations will continue to appear to offer guidance but we are free to reject Them.

 

[McBell]

Baha’is believe it to be Baha’u’llah. But He will not be the last. In future Manifestations will continue to appear to offer guidance but we are free to reject Them.

So the Manifestation does not need be alive?

 

[loverofhumanity]

So the Manifestation does not need be alive?

His Words are what guide like with the scriptures of other religions

 

[Trailblazer]

Excellent. That is the spirit. Same goes for me joining your ceremonies too

I don't even join my own ceremonies so why would I expect anyone else to do so?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Well since recorded history we accept Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
As to sects with Hinduism it would be Vashnavism which believes in Krishna and the Bhagavad-Gita.

So what you're saying here is that Baha'i accept Vaishnavism but reject Shaivism, Vedanta, and other denominations of Hinduism?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By spiritual teachings I mean things like the virtues. Things that focus on developing a virtuous character.

So like the Muslim principle of zakat?