What "if" you are wrong

[Saint Frankenstein]

To all that believe a god does exist and those that believe(or lack belief) a god does not exist.....
What if you are wrong? Will it matter?

I really don't think our beliefs matter much when we die, but our actions, choices and how we've impacted the world.

 

[Ignatius A]

To all that believe a god does exist and those that believe(or lack belief) a god does not exist.....
What if you are wrong? Will it matter?

As Blaise Paschal suggested, it will only matter if you didn't believe and were wrong.

 

[Ignatius A]

Once I'm dead it won't matter any more.

I see where you're going with this thread, of course. You're trying to insinuate a Pascal's wager argument into an apparently casual chat.

That's PRECISELY when it's going to matter

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There are many Muslims who believe in hell who are not cruel.

There are many Muslims who believe in Hell who are not otherwise cruel.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As Blaise Paschal suggested, it will only matter if you didn't believe and were wrong.

If we apply Blaise Pascal's reasoning to a situation with many different religious options (i.e. the real world), it suggests we should pick the religion with the best Heaven and the worst Hell regardless of the religion's merits.

Is this what you do?

 

[Ignatius A]

If we apply Blaise Pascal's reasoning to a situation with many different religious options (i.e. the real world), it suggests we should pick the religion with the best Heaven and the worst Hell regardless of the religion's merits.

Is this what you do?

This isnt about which religion to pick based on it's versions of heaven and hell. The OP seems to be speaking about belief in general vs. nin belief and not which is the better religion.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

That's PRECISELY when it's going to matter

That's for believers to worry about. As long as one continues to believe the unevidenced claim that he will be punished for doubting it, he is a captive of his religion.

These are lyrics from I song I like (and have recorded in a Grateful Dead cover band):

"Which of you to gain me, tell
Will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you
If you will not take the chance"

That's pretty deep, wouldn't you agree? Will you take the chance and risk uncertain pains of hell. I did. I broke out of that cage and have no fear that it was a mistake. Isn't that what the Garden story was really about? The kids took the chance. They traded immortality for the knowledge of good and evil. I feel like I did something analogous returning to atheistic humanism. The story is intended to make that seem like an error, but I see it as undaunted, intrepid, human spirit. That's what the best of mankind does - takes that chance. Now THERE's a wager worth taking.

If you'd like to hear it, that verse is at the 1:55 mark here. And if you'd like to read the lyrics, they are here and here (it's actually a suite of songs):

And it you'd like to hear our source (the original, as the Dead did it), the song begins at 20:18 on this video, and that verse begins at 22:58

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This isnt about which religion to pick based on it's versions of heaven and hell.

That's right. I was responding to a point in your post, not the OP.

You can tell because I quoted your post, not the OP.

The OP seems to be speaking about belief in general vs. nin belief and not which is the better religion.

And as soon as you figure out how to choose "belief in general" without believing in a specific religion, please let me know.

 

[Ignatius A]

That's for believers to worry about. As long as one continues to believe the unevidenced claim that he will be punished for doubting it, he is a captive of his religion.

These are lyrics from I song I like (and have recorded in a Grateful Dead cover band):

"Which of you to gain me, tell
Will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you
If you will not take the chance"

That's pretty deep, wouldn't you agree? Will you take the chance and risk uncertain pains of hell. I did. I broke out of that cage and have no fear that it was a mistake. Isn't that what the Garden story was really about? The kids took the chance. They traded immortality for the knowledge of good and evil. I feel like I did something analogous returning to atheistic humanism. The story is intended to make that seem like an error, but I see it as undaunted, intrepid, human spirit. That's what the best of mankind does - takes that chance. Now THERE's a wager worth taking.

If you'd like to hear it, that verse is at the 1:55 mark here. And if you'd like to read the lyrics, they are here and here (it's actually a suite of songs):

And it you'd like to hear our source (the original, as the Dead did it), the song begins at 20:18 on this video, and that verse begins at 22:58

I merely answered the question in the OP. Thanks for your input though

 

[Ignatius A]

That's right. I was responding to a point in your post, not the OP.

You can tell because I quoted your post, not the OP.




And as soon as you figure out how to choose "belief in general" without believing in a specific religion, please let me know.

It's rather simple actually. People can believe in God without a specific religion. You have to show where selecting a religion is necessary for belief in the existence of God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's rather simple actually. People can believe in God without a specific religion.

They would still believe in a specific version of God.

You have to show where selecting a religion is necessary for belief in the existence of God.

I think you're forgetting that you brought up Pascal's Wager.

I agree that a person can believe in a god without believing in anything in particular about whether that god will inflict rewards and punishments on the dead.

... but we're talking about Pascal's Wager, which isn't just about believing in a god or not; it's about accepting or rejecting a package of beliefs that include belief in a god.

 

[Trailblazer]

We ask God in many prayers to take away love of the life of this world. Ascension and experience of God's light is supposed to replace that pleasure of life.

I don't ask God in prayers to take away love of the life in this world, since I do not love life in this world.
I don't need to 'replace' the pleasure if this life, since I find no pleasure in this life, not from anything physical or worldly.

If all that doesn't exist, it's a lot of expecting, and suffering for it. If God doesn't exist, there will be no ascension, no matter how much we pray for it. I can go on and on, how much, significant it is the bet we take.

I'm not the least bit worried that the next life does not exist.
I have no idea what it will be like, but I trust what Baha'u'llah wrote about it. I don't need the details because I couldn't understand them anyway.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[Ignatius A]

M

They would still believe in a specific version of God.



I think you're forgetting that you brought up Pascal's Wager.

I agree that a person can believe in a god without believing in anything in particular about whether that god will inflict rewards and punishments on the dead.

... but we're talking about Pascal's Wager, which isn't just about believing in a god or not; it's about accepting or rejecting a package of beliefs that include belief in a god.

Maybe but thats not a religion

I did bring it up and it doesn't require belief in a specific religion to be true, unless you can show how.

You're very confused.

 

[The Hammer]

Maybe but thats not a religion

What IS a religion???

 

[Ignatius A]

What IS a religion???

Anything that identifies as a religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

M

Maybe but thats not a religion

Pascal's original wager was about Christianity, a religion.

I did bring it up and it doesn't require belief in a specific religion to be true, unless you can show how.

You're right. It only requires specific beliefs about what a given god will do to us after we die.

The most common way that a person would accept a set of beliefs about what a god will do to us when we die would be to accept a specific religion, but we can imagine ways that a person could accept some set of beliefs on this without accepting a whole religion.

Now that all this is out of the way, do you feel like responding to my point?

 

[Ignatius A]

Pascal's original wager was about Christianity, a religion.



You're right. It only requires specific beliefs about what a given god will do to us after we die.

The most common way that a person would accept a set of beliefs about what a god will do to us when we die would be to accept a specific religion, but we can imagine ways that a person could accept some set of beliefs on this without accepting a whole religion.

Now that all this is out of the way, do you feel like responding to my point?

True but to he same principle could be applied to any religion. What you haven't done is shown that selecting a religion is necessary for a belief in God. Do that then I'll feel like responding to you point.

 

[Spice]

I'm glad for you, but that doesn't answer the question asked, which was, if you learned that the god you worship doesn't exist, would you consider the path that belief took you a good one anyway.

My God is not bound by definition, nor at the head of any one religion. He is so abstract that He must exist, for He is the Infinite One. The Alpha and the Omega. But if human logic is so off the mark that there is no such thing as infinity, then I'm still quite comfortable in the path I took as being right for me. My belief is Omnist -- no one religion has all truth, but all have bits of truth. Certain aspects of Christianity and Buddhism are the strongest for me, thus far, but I'm open and still explore theological/philosophical thought from many sources.

 

[Spice]

That's for believers to worry about. As long as one continues to believe the unevidenced claim that he will be punished for doubting it, he is a captive of his religion.

These are lyrics from I song I like (and have recorded in a Grateful Dead cover band):

"Which of you to gain me, tell
Will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you
If you will not take the chance"

That's pretty deep, wouldn't you agree? Will you take the chance and risk uncertain pains of hell. I did. I broke out of that cage and have no fear that it was a mistake. Isn't that what the Garden story was really about? The kids took the chance. They traded immortality for the knowledge of good and evil. I feel like I did something analogous returning to atheistic humanism. The story is intended to make that seem like an error, but I see it as undaunted, intrepid, human spirit. That's what the best of mankind does - takes that chance. Now THERE's a wager worth taking.

If you'd like to hear it, that verse is at the 1:55 mark here. And if you'd like to read the lyrics, they are here and here (it's actually a suite of songs):

And it you'd like to hear our source (the original, as the Dead did it), the song begins at 20:18 on this video, and that verse begins at 22:58

Are you familiar with these lyrics?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Are you familiar with these lyrics?

Yes, very. I think I can name the band and the singer without Google. My answer would be The Fifth Dimension and David Clayton Thomas (just confirmed that and learned two things - Clayton was not his middle name, but the first part of a hyphenated last name, and that he was white; I always thought the band was all black).

Now that needs to be corrected. That comment was based on this picture of him:

So I looked up the band again, and found this picture. Not white after all:

Nice song. Why did you mention it?