What if you KNEW there was a God.

[Thanda]

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

 

[Deathbydefault]

I wouldn't change a thing.

Whether your God is real or not isn't something I really care about.
If your God was real and If you had empirical evidence, then I would still reject Him.
I wouldn't deny that He exists, however, I wouldn't care that He does.

From my reading of the bible, my personal interpretations, there is nothing for me to respect of your God.
Quite the contrary, I have much to disrespect of Him and his son.

I reject God, real or not.

-

He created me? I didn't ask to be created.
He loves me? Doesn't mean I have to love him back.
I'll go to hell? Seems like a cooler place than heaven anyways.

 

[LuisDantas]

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

Honestly, I would wonder what that is all about. Some sort of digital reconstitution for proselitizing purposes, perhaps?

I mean, it is not like it could possibly mean anything to me in a religious sense. I am just not that kind of person, trust me.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you?

It would give me a measure of resignation: "Oh boy, this will give ideas to the theistic proselitizers. Again."

Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

"Stop" lying? (Let's leave the matters of pride and lust for later)

The only meaningful change that such an episode could motivate in me would be making me that much more engaged in pointing out openly how different belief and religiosity are.

It would make me more outspoken an anti-theist.

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

Not a whole lot, I would expect. But I am by no means a Christian or a Theist, so that is only natural.

 

[metis]

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

The above is based on many assumptions that I simply do not agree with. For example, would a devout Hindu be a liar, prideful, lustful, etc. simply because they don't share the same religious beliefs you have? How about a non-theistic Buddhist?

 

[Thanda]

The above is based on many assumptions that I simply do not agree with. For example, would a devout Hindu be a liar, prideful, lustful, etc. simply because they don't share the same religious beliefs you have? How about a non-theistic Buddhist?

This is more specifically aimed at atheists and the Luke-warm Christians. But those of other religions are welcome to replace the Jesus and so forth with another deity or prophet. The point is, do you believe your lack of commitment to living the way you believe the God of Christianity (or Islam or Hinduism etc etc.) is a result of uncertainty or whether it is a case of not wanting to live your life any differently.

 

[jonathan180iq]

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

So, essentially, what you want to know is how my life would change if evidence for magic or supernatural powers emerged?
The world would be a completely different place, wouldn't it?
The implications of these things existing would mean that they were possible, first of all. That means that all fantasy and mystical stories and movies would have to be even more over-the-top to be entertaining, right? And it would mean that people all throughout History would have been practicing real magic, and building better cities, and spitting in people's eyes to cure blindness and things like that... It would have changed everything... But then there's reality...

Anyway, to directly answer your question, I think the harsh truth is that it wouldn't make any difference.

If those things were real, I'd first ask why they stopped happening...
If those things were real, and we had video evidence for it, then I wouldn't have to preach the gospel, would I? The videos would be self-explanatory.
If those things were real, I wouldn't have to pray because I could probably just write God an email or read his daily blog.
If those things were real, why would I stop lying, or being prideful, or being lustful? Those behaviors and characters traits were put in me by my creator god, right? Why should I deny the fruits of his work?
If those things were real, why would I stop being a bleeding-heart liberal sissy? Wouldn't, technically, all of the conservatives be forced to adopt their progressive liberal savior's agenda? (The Pharisees were the conservatives, if you recall.)

The point is, if the Bible were historically 100% factually accurate, as many hard-line Christians claim, then the world would turn out just the same as it is now, right?
And if the Bible was nothing more than a fancy-worded jumble of delusional crap, then the world would have turned out just the same as it is now...

 

[Thanda]

So, essentially, what you want to know is how my life would change if evidence for magic or supernatural powers emerged?
The world would be a completely different place, wouldn't it?
The implications of these things existing would mean that they were possible, first of all. That means that all fantasy and mystical stories and movies would have to be even more over-the-top to be entertaining, right? And it would mean that people all throughout History would have been practicing real magic, and building better cities, and spitting in people's eyes to cure blindness and things like that... It would have changed everything... But then there's reality...

Anyway, to directly answer your question, I think the harsh truth is that it wouldn't make any difference.

If those things were real, I'd first ask why they stopped happening...
If those things were real, and we had video evidence for it, then I wouldn't have to preach the gospel, would I? The videos would be self-explanatory.
If those things were real, I wouldn't have to pray because I could probably just write God an email or read his daily blog.
If those things were real, why would I stop lying, or being prideful, or being lustful? Those behaviors and characters traits were put in me by my creator god, right? Why should I deny the fruits of his work?
If those things were real, why would I stop being a bleeding-heart liberal sissy? Wouldn't, technically, all of the conservatives be forced to adopt their progressive liberal savior's agenda? (The Pharisees were the conservatives, if you recall.)

The point is, if the Bible were historically 100% factually accurate, as many hard-line Christians claim, then the world would turn out just the same as it is now, right?
And if the Bible was nothing more than a fancy-worded jumble of delusional crap, then the world would have turned out just the same as it is now...

Thanks for your honesty.

As for whether Christ was conservative or not I guess it is quite debatable. After all he is the one who said you're not only supposed to not sleep around, you're a bad person for even thinking about it. And he chastised the the pharisees for only talking the talk but not walking the walk when it comes to the law.

But an interesting thing I got out of your response as that you actually would want to talk to God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

Heh... if God was obvious to everyone, wouldn't preaching the Gospel be kinda pointless?

If I was convinced that God exists and I was convinced that God is good (which aren't a package deal - IMO, the god portrayed by the Bible is deeply immoral and unjust), then I might be convinced to pray and go to church. I don't think my life would change much otherwise.

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

Some of it is about not counting on God or Jesus: I try to do a fair bit in the community, and if I could be sure that some magical being was going to swoop down and make everything better, then I could relax a bit and not work as hard to help other people.

But honestly, if I somehow became convinced that God was real, I'd probably conclude that the Bible is a test, and God wants us to reject a lot of the stuff in the Bible, especially the picture of Heaven it presents.

If, somehow, I managed to convince myself that God was real AND the Bible accurately reflects him, I'm not sure what I'd do. Yes, I'd be afraid of Hell, but in the past I've found myself just incapable of doing things that went against my conscience - I end up refusing even if it goes against my self-interest.

During the Iraq War, I was working for a company that got bought by an American firm. I researched my new company and found out that had a division that was an American defense contractor - it refueled and re-armed American warplanes at a base in Kuwait. I felt actual revulsion at the idea of working for this company... to the point where I quit my job and took a position at another firm.

I see the God of the Bible to be unimaginably worse than a company that aided a war I disagreed with. I don't think I'd be able to give my allegiance to the god who drowned the world, handed Job over for torment, tortured David's son to death, murdered the first-born of Egypt, and stood by and watched for every crime ever committed on the face of the Earth. I don't think I'd be able to do this even if I was threatened with Hell. It just isn't the way I'm wired.

 

[jonathan180iq]

As for whether Christ was conservative or not I guess it is quite debatable. After all he is the one who said you're not only supposed to not sleep around, you're a bad person for even thinking about it. And he chastised the the pharisees for only talking the talk but not walking the walk when it comes to the law.

According to Jesus, anything that didn't include strict worship, love ,and praise for god or himself made you a bad person, didn't it? Either way, the dude was a seriously progressive radical in a place that had become bogged down with strict, disingenuous religious rules - at least according to the NT.

But an interesting thing I got out of your response as that you actually would want to talk to God.

If this whole god business were factually true, who wouldn't?

The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is that not a single theist in the history of human kind has ever provided enough convincing evidence for the existence of their deity, nor have they presented me with a deity that I didn't find just utterly disgusting in character.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is more specifically aimed at atheists and the Luke-warm Christians. But those of other religions are welcome to replace the Jesus and so forth with another deity or prophet. The point is, do you believe your lack of commitment to living the way you believe the God of Christianity (or Islam or Hinduism etc etc.) is a result of uncertainty or whether it is a case of not wanting to live your life any differently.

I'm open to living differently; I'm not open to following a mass murderer.

I think you need to understand something about religion to outsiders: if we see you do things that are good or bring positive results, we're free to do them too even without your religion. We can steal good ideas from anywhere. Accepting your faith - or any other faith that we don't already agree with - means accepting all the other stuff:

- the things that aren't demonstrably good.
- the things we think are downright bad.

I'm open to the idea that there might be good things in a religion that depend on being an adherent, but so far, I haven't found any that are based on premises that I accept.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As for whether Christ was conservative or not I guess it is quite debatable. After all he is the one who said you're not only supposed to not sleep around, you're a bad person for even thinking about it.

I read that passage differently: I take the meaning as "don't criticize people for sleeping around, because you're lustful too, so you're just as bad. Worry about improving yourself and stop worrying about shaming others."

 

[Thanda]

Heh... if God was obvious to everyone, wouldn't preaching the Gospel be kinda pointless?

If I was convinced that God exists and I was convinced that God is good (which aren't a package deal - IMO, the god portrayed by the Bible is deeply immoral and unjust), then I might be convinced to pray and go to church. I don't think my life would change much otherwise.


Some of it is about not counting on God or Jesus: I try to do a fair bit in the community, and if I could be sure that some magical being was going to swoop down and make everything better, then I could relax a bit and not work as hard to help other people.

But honestly, if I somehow became convinced that God was real, I'd probably conclude that the Bible is a test, and God wants us to reject a lot of the stuff in the Bible, especially the picture of Heaven it presents.

If, somehow, I managed to convince myself that God was real AND the Bible accurately reflects him, I'm not sure what I'd do. Yes, I'd be afraid of Hell, but in the past I've found myself just incapable of doing things that went against my conscience - I end up refusing even if it goes against my self-interest.

During the Iraq War, I was working for a company that got bought by an American firm. I researched my new company and found out that had a division that was an American defense contractor - it refueled and re-armed American warplanes at a base in Kuwait. I felt actual revulsion at the idea of working for this company... to the point where I quit my job and took a position at another firm.

I see the God of the Bible to be unimaginably worse than a company that aided a war I disagreed with. I don't think I'd be able to give my allegiance to the god who drowned the world, handed Job over for torment, tortured David's son to death, murdered the first-born of Egypt, and stood by and watched for every crime ever committed on the face of the Earth. I don't think I'd be able to do this even if I was threatened with Hell. It just isn't the way I'm wired.

According to Jesus, anything that didn't include strict worship, love ,and praise for god or himself made you a bad person, didn't it? Either way, the dude was a seriously progressive radical in a place that had become bogged down with strict, disingenuous religious rules - at least according to the NT.


If this whole god business were factually true, who wouldn't?

The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is that not a single theist in the history of human kind has ever provided enough convincing evidence for the existence of their deity, nor have they presented me with a deity that I didn't find just utterly disgusting in character.

I'm open to living differently; I'm not open to following a mass murderer.

I think you need to understand something about religion to outsiders: if we see you do things that are good or bring positive results, we're free to do them too even without your religion. We can steal good ideas from anywhere. Accepting your faith - or any other faith that we don't already agree with - means accepting all the other stuff:

- the things that aren't demonstrably good.
- the things we think are downright bad.

I'm open to the idea that there might be good things in a religion that depend on being an adherent, but so far, I haven't found any that are based on premises that I accept.

And what if you just misunderstood God? I mean we humans do that all the time. We see someone doing something and then we quickly make a judgement call about them, what kind of person they are and their motivations. And often these quick judgments which are done without hearing the other persons side of the story turn out to be a little off.

 

[Thanda]

I read that passage differently: I take the meaning as "don't criticize people for sleeping around, because you're lustful too, so you're just as bad. Worry about improving yourself and stop worrying about shaming others."

Okay. But the scripture in Matthew chapter 5 says:

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And what if you just misunderstood God? I mean we humans do that all the time. We see someone doing something and then we quickly make a judgement call about them, what kind of person they are and their motivations.

Oh... so God might've had good motives for slowly torturing a baby for a week until he dies?

I have to admit: I *am* pretty quick to condemn people who torture babies to death.

And often these quick judgments which are done without hearing the other persons side of the story turn out to be a little off.

I thought we were assuming for this thought experiment that the Bible is accurate, no?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How would your life be affected if video evidence was found of Moses parting the red Sea; Jesus walking on water; God using his own finger to write the ten commandments. And furthermore that video was brought to you by Jesus himself with Adam, Noah, Abraham with a few cherubim and some trumpets for good measure.

If this happened, how do you think it would change you? Do you think you would start praying, stop lying, cease from pride and lust? Would you go preach the gospel? Would your political views change?

What I'm actually asking is, honestly speaking, how much of what you do, think and say that is contrary what the bible teaches - ten commandments, beatitudes etc. - is because of your uncertainty about the existence of God and the accuracy of the bible and how much of it is a result of you simply not being willing to live your life differently?

I'm not sure how much I would change. If anything, all it would really do is bring up more questions. I'm not sure I'd be willing to follow the demands of a God who would do those things, and I would remain just as critical and sketpical of their followers - only now for different reasons. I would probably continue living my life the same way I do now, only a lot more confused and fair bit more angry (specifically, at God).

And what if you just misunderstood God? I mean we humans do that all the time. We see someone doing something and then we quickly make a judgement call about them, what kind of person they are and their motivations. And often these quick judgments which are done without hearing the other persons side of the story turn out to be a little off.

Then it's God's responsibility to clarify that. If you see me push an old lady off a cliff, you'd be well within reason to hold me to account for my actions. I very much doubt you would just shrug and say "Well, maybe they had a good reason for doing it. I don't see any reason to assume they didn't, so let's not bother asking."

Same would be true for God. If God reveals their existence, I feel I would be well within my rights to demand God give an explanation for their more abominable actions or creations, and if they are not forthcoming then I don't see why I would want to preach their word or commit to their way of thinking because they are clearly morally incomprehensible to me.

 

[Augustus]

Would ask the big man about heaven and hell, if he confirmed that hell involved an eternity of exquisite torment and heaven was a pretty nice place that I'd enjoy, I think I'd become a model Christian. Hopefully He would tell me that the Anglicans had got the right end of the stick, rather than the evangelicals though. Whatever was right, avoiding an eternity of excruciating agony would be a pretty big motivator for me.

Regardless of the carrot/stick, to say 'it wouldn't change me', requires not integrating the new reality into your thoughts. Right and wrong would be objective and based on God's will and applying your own morality would be objectively wrong. It wouldn't be heroic resistance, it would be harmful corruption.

 

[Thanda]

Oh... so God might've had good motives for slowly torturing a baby for a week until he dies?

I have to admit: I *am* pretty quick to condemn people who torture babies to death.


I thought we were assuming for this thought experiment that the Bible is accurate, no?

Well yes, errors and additions aside. Being that you would now know that God lives - anything you were unsure of you could ask him if you were willing to pray.

 

[Thanda]

I'm not sure how much I would change. If anything, all it would really do is bring up more questions. I'm not sure I'd be willing to follow the demands of a God who would do those things, and I would remain just as critical and sketpical of their followers - only now for different reasons. I would probably continue living my life the same way I do now, only a lot more confused and fair bit more angry (specifically, at God).

And what would you do with those questions. Would you start praying and asking God for clarity or would you just not be interested in talking to him?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well yes, errors and additions aside. Being that you would now know that God lives - anything you were unsure of you could ask him if you were willing to pray.

Why would an atheist be moved by the scenario you proposed in the OP?

 

[Thanda]

Would ask the big man about heaven and hell, if he confirmed that hell involved an eternity of exquisite torment and heaven was a pretty nice place that I'd enjoy, I think I'd become a model Christian. Hopefully He would tell me that the Anglicans had got the right end of the stick, rather than the evangelicals though. Whatever was right, avoiding an eternity of excruciating agony would be a pretty big motivator for me.

Regardless of the carrot/stick, to say 'it wouldn't change me', requires not integrating the new reality into your thoughts. Right and wrong would be objective and based on God's will and applying your own morality would be objectively wrong. It wouldn't be heroic resistance, it would be harmful corruption.

Interesting take